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Is it entirely a cult thing ( ____ guitarist uses a ____ guitar made of these materials and thus will I) or is there a good sonic reason for using these tone woods?
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"The TV business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. . .Then there's also the negative side"
Part of it is that these are the traditional woods that have been used and have thus sculpted the sound that we have come to expect from Classical and Flamenco guitars.
Cypress and rosewood are both lively tonewoods. I think the reason more exotic and diverse back and side woods are more often used on steel strings is because steel strings have more energy to burn than nylon, and can put up with, and even benefit from, back and side materials with more internal damping.
Rosewood IMO is more ringy and sustaining, but cypress can enhance that "bark" and dryness in a blanca
Manuel Diaz built a with back and sides made from acrylic glass. Even this material works if the top is well made. The Back and sides might enhance certain tonal qualities, but the construction of the soundboard is the main determination for the sound so yes, probably the use of those typical tonewoods has a lot to do with traditions.
Jose Romanillos, in his book about Antonio de Torres, writes "The use of cypress for the construction of flamenco guitars did not originate from the need to produce a particular type of sound specifically suited to flamenco music. Well before the flamenco art form came to maturity cypress was used for musical instrument making and its introduction into flamenco guitar construction had more to do with economic factors than the singularly intrinsic quality of the wood itself".
I would prefer to turn it the other way round. Why using anything else but cypress and Indian rosewood? Both woods are absolutely top quality tonewoods. I have still to find something superior.
A good reason not use cypress and Indian rosewood all the time is of course for the same reason it is tough to find BRW these days. It maybe good now but it wont take long before it's all gone.
IRW is fairly cheep compared to alot of other tone woods out there and it is just as good. I think it comes down to economy really. Although I have noticed that some really nice maple is cheaper than some not as good Cypress. I guess that where tradition comes in to play.
I wouldnt compare maple to cypress. Just because its pale it doesnt mean it´ll sound like a cypress blanca. It has its own charm.
If traditional tonewoods disappear, we´ll build using other things. I personally have absolutely no problem with using Canadian cypress/Alaskan yellow cedar for sides and back. Some of my best guitars are made with that wood and the quality of the wood is superb. I also use Padauk for negras and its another very nice tonewood. These two tonewoods are equal to cypress and EIRosewood in sound, but its more complicated to sell because the clients dont find it to be "fine" enough. Simon who made the Guitarrero DVD fortunately didnt care much about being "fine" so I made him this one with CDN cypress 5 years ago:
Some of the native woods from California make super flamenco guitars, the Monterrey Cypress is a relative species to the Spanish Cypress and it makes killer instruments.
There are also woods I've mentioned before like Black Acacia and Myrtle, they have qualities which seat them in between Cypress and Rosewood and they have made fantastic guitars. Cypress is the go to wood but I would not kick some others out of bed. It's mildly myopic to only see Cypress and Rosewood as the correct woods.
Brazilian, meh, get over it. It's not worth it compared to the cost. Brazilian is now boutique wood and sure it's great, but is it really a positive reciprocity between cost and how much you gain in tone? Or is it about ego and status? There is a whole new tonal palette out there to explore in the woods which are hard like rosewood, but dry like cypress. And a few woods which have similar qualities to Brazilian are sleepers, Osage Orange is one of them.
In the movie Mrs. Robinson there was that famous line spoken to Dustin Hoffman: "The future is in plastics." In guitar making today the future is in alternate woods.
It's time to shake it up and get out of this ossified two wood mind set.
Great stuff. I made 4 guitars with it.. I love it. All the stuff we have is 90 degrees quartered across the board and about 2-3 grain lines per mm in some places. Too bad it's wasted on a back and sides
Jose Romanillos, in his book about Antonio de Torres, writes "The use of cypress for the construction of flamenco guitars did not originate from the need to produce a particular type of sound specifically suited to flamenco music. Well before the flamenco art form came to maturity cypress was used for musical instrument making and its introduction into flamenco guitar construction had more to do with economic factors than the singularly intrinsic quality of the wood itself".
It also seems coincidental that the most desirable wood species for guitar construction were the most popular for things like furniture and decorative construction. . .until they became scarce and expensive.
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"The TV business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. . .Then there's also the negative side"
Mediterranean Cypress is a wonderful tonewood, not only for flamenco guitars. I'm sure Torres used this wood not only due to economical reasons.
Today there are other kinds of cypress such as Canadian, Port Orford and Monterey availlabe. They might be good too and produce a similar tone but the old world stuff is what i prefere for my guitars. That's not because mediterranean outbeats the others but maybe because i'm european and i like to use the stuff that grows around me.
Yes, the wood used for back and sides doesn't play the same role as it does the wood used for the soundboard, but the construction is more important than the wood and that is valid for every part of the guitar.
When it comes to rosewood i have my own opinion too. To my opinion there is no better rosewood than brazilian for acoustic guitars. As brazlian rosewood is no longer availlable due to CITES protection, we need substitutes. To my opinion indian rosewood is the best substitute allthough it is'nt the same as brazilian. However all other substitutes are less suitable to replace brazilian even if they look almost like brazlian.
Both med cypress as well as indian rosewood can make excellent guitars, so except the spruce for the tops there is actually no need for a luthier to have anything else than this two tonewoods.
"I've read a number of articles, both on the internet and in print, stating that the use of "Brazilian rosewood oil" by the perfume/fragrance industry has contributed in large part to the near extinction, international trade bans and resulting exhorbitant prices of Dalbergia nigra, the true Brazilian rosewood of lore and legend. Nonsense. Poppycock. Balderdash. Horsehockey. The tree that is the source of the so-called "Brazilian rosewood oil" that is used in fragrances is a large evergreen with the botanical name Aniba rosaeodora that grows in the western Amazon basin as well as in Peru, Chile, Ecuador and a couple of other countries but Brazil is the primary supplier. The tree that is the source of the Brazilian rosewood that we all know (or at least think we know) and love grows only in the Mata Atlantica, the Atlantic coastal forest of Brazil and not in the Amazon basin. They are two separate and distinct trees of different botanic genera and are not related to each other. While the widespread harvesting of A. rosaeodora may well be a contributing factor to the decimation of the Amazon rainforest, it has no bearing whatsoever on the rarity of D. nigra. This is just one more example of a common/colloquial term causing confusion. The term "Brazilian rosewood" has been used for many years to describe any number of woods, some from Brazil, some not. Some are botanically true rosewoods (genus Dalbergia), others are not. While it is true that there are other species of the genus Dalbergia that grow in Brazil and therefore could correctly be called "Brazilian rosewood" (but usually aren't while several non-Dalbergia species often are ), the one that is near and dear to the hearts of guitar makers and players and the one that is the Big Enchilada on the CITES and Lacey Act lists is D. nigra, not some sort of look-alike, smell-alike, taste-alike, etc. The genus Dalbergia is quite large and while there is some dispute as to the actual number of species within the genus, the number is probably in excess of 300. While all of the true rosewoods are of this genus, there are only about a dozen or so species worldwide that yield commercially viable lumber. Some of the species are little more than small shrubs. In other words, all of the true rosewoods are Dalbergias but not all Dalbergias are rosewoods. Bottom line----The tree that is the source of "Brazilian rosewood oil" is not actually a rosewood at all, the fragrance industry has nothing whatsoever to do with the scarcity of D. nigra and D. nigra, while a fragrant wood insofar as woods go, is not used for making perfume."
While it might not help the ecological situation, it is a bit becalming to hear that such wood is not to be wasted for making parfumes. Its use for furnitures ain´t exactly reasonable either, but appears a tad less insane.
Some of the furnitures at least might be still around when primare forest are gone. - Though questionably serving as solace.
When I ordered my spruce/Brazilian classical from Abel Garcia in December, 2006, I asked his opinion about wood for back and sides. Garcia is an expert on guitar making woods, having written a scholarly book on the subject. He likened the use of Brazilian rosewood to putting jewelry on the instrument. All the same I picked out a beautiful straight grained quarter sawn set from his humidity controlled stash.
I forget exactly what the additional charge was, but it was a sizable fraction of the total price of the guitar.
"I've read a number of articles, both on the internet and in print, stating that the use of "Brazilian rosewood oil" by the perfume/fragrance industry has contributed in large part to the near extinction, international trade bans and resulting exhorbitant prices of Dalbergia nigra, the true Brazilian rosewood of lore and legend. Nonsense. Poppycock. Balderdash. Horsehockey. The tree that is the source of the so-called "Brazilian rosewood oil" that is used in fragrances is a large evergreen with the botanical name Aniba rosaeodora that grows in the western Amazon basin as well as in Peru, Chile, Ecuador and a couple of other countries but Brazil is the primary supplier. The tree that is the source of the Brazilian rosewood that we all know (or at least think we know) and love grows only in the Mata Atlantica, the Atlantic coastal forest of Brazil and not in the Amazon basin. They are two separate and distinct trees of different botanic genera and are not related to each other. While the widespread harvesting of A. rosaeodora may well be a contributing factor to the decimation of the Amazon rainforest, it has no bearing whatsoever on the rarity of D. nigra. This is just one more example of a common/colloquial term causing confusion. The term "Brazilian rosewood" has been used for many years to describe any number of woods, some from Brazil, some not. Some are botanically true rosewoods (genus Dalbergia), others are not. While it is true that there are other species of the genus Dalbergia that grow in Brazil and therefore could correctly be called "Brazilian rosewood" (but usually aren't while several non-Dalbergia species often are ), the one that is near and dear to the hearts of guitar makers and players and the one that is the Big Enchilada on the CITES and Lacey Act lists is D. nigra, not some sort of look-alike, smell-alike, taste-alike, etc. The genus Dalbergia is quite large and while there is some dispute as to the actual number of species within the genus, the number is probably in excess of 300. While all of the true rosewoods are of this genus, there are only about a dozen or so species worldwide that yield commercially viable lumber. Some of the species are little more than small shrubs. In other words, all of the true rosewoods are Dalbergias but not all Dalbergias are rosewoods. Bottom line----The tree that is the source of "Brazilian rosewood oil" is not actually a rosewood at all, the fragrance industry has nothing whatsoever to do with the scarcity of D. nigra and D. nigra, while a fragrant wood insofar as woods go, is not used for making perfume."
RNJ
Thanks Richard.
I'll also add that to my knowledge the primary source regions for Dalbergia nigra , the "Mata Atlantica" that you mention would be places like coastal Pernambuco or Bahia. These areas have been heavily cleared for plantation agriculture beginning in the 16th century. There are still sizeable pockets of "Mata Atlantica" even in Rio de Janeiro state, but at the time of european contact it stretched unbroken from the Rio Plata to the Yucatan. I'm certain that, at least initially, Brasilian "rosewood" was not coming from the Amazon Basin.
_____________________________
"The TV business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. . .Then there's also the negative side"
Garcia is an expert on guitar making woods, having written a scholarly book on the subject. He likened the use of Brazilian rosewood to putting jewelry on the instrument
Uh huh. Thank you. And thank Abel Gracia for being honest.
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