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Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models
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gj Michelob
Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco
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 RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (in reply to TANúñez)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TANúñez
I love the rose themed rosette. I use one myself. Lester DeVoe also uses one and I've see them on Francisco Barba, Andres Dominguez, Ramirez, Contreras and I think I saw one on a Juan Miguel Gonzalez. There are many variations of the rose rosette. To me, it's Spanish looking.
I suppose we all react differently to blondes and brunettes, blanca and negras, and equally to Rosettes. I too, as Tom, am a true sucker for Rose Rosettes. My Conde Negra has its trademark rose-rosette, and before i play, i stare at it as if it were some painting to give inspiration. Its white-background varsion which goes on the orange-tint guitars is substantially similar to that used by Sanchis Carpio, and Hermanos Sanchis Carpio. Indeed it is recurrently copied, infringed and violated by many makers, including some naming rather modest insruments, but that only proves the popularity of the brand and its most distinctive element, id Rosette. Regrettably this abuse does create confusion and dilutes the brand-value.
The same, yet at a different level, is true for another charming Rosette, the Manuel Reyes with its little crosses (?) in black and red, teasing us all from underneath Vicente Amigo's right hand. Kenny Hill and GR Vazquez both use a substantially identical Rosette on their "Reyes" model.
I do suffer from an obsessive Rosette fetish, and as i already revealed on a few instances, the cosmetic or optical aspect of a guitar is to me a gratifying part i need in order to enjoy the instrument fully.
Hey... we wouldn't have horse-races if we agreed on everything, would we?
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gj Michelob
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Date Dec. 29 2008 5:48:39
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson
One of the things that I dont understand is that builders making expensive handmade, hand tuned and hand polished guitars, dont make their own rosettes, but buy a 10 - 15 dollar design made in Korea or Russia and glue it into the soundboard. Its one of the few parts on a guitar where you can actuallky make something like art and wham a 15 dollars mass produced piece of crap. I just dont get it.
At least some are so honest that they say they use bought in rosettes. I know of famous builders saying they are handmade by the builder and at the same time I have seen the case with 500 rosette rings from Korea.
I understand that someone making a guitar or five as a hobby buys a rosette, and that factorys do the same, but that famous luthiers do the same, I feel is a total lack of respect for their own work.
Happy new year.
Btw, today I´ve been making two hand inlayed rosettes. They are all different. Its on of the things I like making the most. My first five guitars were with bought in rosettes but since everyone asked me if I had made the rosette, I felt it would be better to start making them myself and I´m proud to say that I make my own rosettes when someone ask me if I have made everything on the guitar.
More power to you, Anders, and I salute you for your art. But for me, I understand that Japan can make as good or better rosettes so I like to spend the time I would use to make my own rosettes, and concentrate on the fine-tuning process. It all comes out in a good balance for me, Amigo. Happy New Year!
I used to make my own rosettes but I feel it's not very productive (time-wise) to try and incorporate all of the techniques together.
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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
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Date Dec. 31 2008 9:44:33
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Exitao
Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada
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RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (in reply to srshea)
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I'm curious:
Anyone know of a nice guide or photo gallery (maybe with commentary) on rosettes?
I know that my guitar's rosette was not made by the luthier. I guess he buys them in bulk like nuts, saddles, bridges and tuners. Essentially, he's too busy to bother with making his own rosettes, and he disclosed this before selling it, which I think is only proper.
Maybe it would be different if he was busy enough to have a helper or apprentice, rosettes could qualify as "make busy" work that could also help someone grow skills with materials and tools.
Maybe if I had commissioned my guitar, I would have preferred something special, like Anders does. In the future, if I ever buy another guitar, I wouldn't mind paying extra, or if I used a luthier who didn't make his own, I'd source out something to my liking. But, as long as the rosette matches the aesthetic of the guitar, does it really make a difference?
I've only ever bought two guitars. One factory built and one luthier built. So I'm not very experienced.
As mine was built on spec for someone else, I had no say in its fabrication. I did, however, ask every question I could think of as to its materials and construction and I expect that most people would discuss these details while commissioning their guitar or purchasing it.
Would many luthiers be honest? Would/do many luthiers pass them off as their own, simply not mention it intentionally, or just not think it worth mentioning?
Would anyone agree that this seems to fall under caveat emptor os it there more to it?
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Date Dec. 31 2008 16:53:55
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (in reply to Exitao)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Exitao
I'm curious:
Anyone know of a nice guide or photo gallery (maybe with commentary) on rosettes?
I know that my guitar's rosette was not made by the luthier. I guess he buys them in bulk like nuts, saddles, bridges and tuners. Essentially, he's too busy to bother with making his own rosettes, and he disclosed this before selling it, which I think is only proper.
Maybe it would be different if he was busy enough to have a helper or apprentice, rosettes could qualify as "make busy" work that could also help someone grow skills with materials and tools.
Maybe if I had commissioned my guitar, I would have preferred something special, like Anders does. In the future, if I ever buy another guitar, I wouldn't mind paying extra, or if I used a luthier who didn't make his own, I'd source out something to my liking. But, as long as the rosette matches the aesthetic of the guitar, does it really make a difference?
I've only ever bought two guitars. One factory built and one luthier built. So I'm not very experienced.
As mine was built on spec for someone else, I had no say in its fabrication. I did, however, ask every question I could think of as to its materials and construction and I expect that most people would discuss these details while commissioning their guitar or purchasing it.
Would many luthiers be honest? Would/do many luthiers pass them off as their own, simply not mention it intentionally, or just not think it worth mentioning?
Would anyone agree that this seems to fall under caveat emptor os it there more to it?
Any seasoned professional builder can make his own rosettes, and this is to say that many builders now, don't bother with it since they order their own designs and such from Japan, Korea, or China. It's done all the time. I make guitar copies in the styles of several Spanish masters and I don't have the time to sit and make rosettes of their style. Japan does a very good job where this is concerned.
RE Brune has done the same thing. We don't care to spend the time when we can get excellent copies of any style we build. Even Brune ordered his own personal from Japan. This is a highly accepted way of doing business, and for any of you on this list to say different, is to display your ignorance.
But if a person desires to have his own personalized rosette, then think about it for a moment. It would not be the builder's idea but the customers. The builder would be in the arena but not solely creating his own idea. So, it stands to reason that there are several ways to handle it.
Now, if the player says to the builder, "Make me something different but to your own ideal," then it would be the builder's ideal. But we have to ask ourselves, is it worth the extra time and price to do it this way or should the builder spend the additional time fine-tuning his instrument.
I think this thread is not too in touch with the market-place since the majority of players today don't care if it is hand made or a copy of a famous builder. What IS important is that the rosette be esthetically pleasing to the eyes and fit the over-all continuity of the guitar's design.
But to clarify it a little further, I would say that many of todays rosette designs are in extremely bad taste; even some of the modern styles coming out of Spain. What's the answer? The answer is in the buyer's taste.
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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
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Date Jan. 1 2009 6:06:42
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gj Michelob
Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco
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RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (in reply to Guest)
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I do not believe that the choice of whether or not crafting one’s own rosette will sanction or compromise a builder’s integrity. Some builders believe that all ornamental aspects of the guitar be integral parts of their artisanal or artistic originality and craftsmanship, some lay their priorities on the core of the work, the body of the instrument. As Tom Blackshear points out, a lot maybe left to the commissioning buyer’s taste and likings, both for cosmetic whims and certain action/comfort specifications. It is however true that headstock’s carvings and rosette's patterns/colors/material are the sole parts affording a degree of leeway to display some distinctive characteristics, and become the original and individual “mark” of a certain luthier.
Although vastly copied and abused, the Conde rose rosette and its “media luna” carved head provide immediate recognizable traits. Personally, I value the originality of these apparently solely cosmetic aspects, and highly respect those luthiers who will take the painstaking artisan’s time to conceive and then craft their “very own”.
I once called LMI to see how much it would cost to have my own designed rosette crafted by their artisans, and unfortunately had to “bunt”… as I needed to order a few hundreds. My idea was to devise a rosette no one else had out there…. with a “writing” pattern . I imagined a white background, with red initial letters followed by dark blue calligraphy spelling out some famous sentence “Rara Temporum Felicitas” [rare happiness of all times –on ancient roman coins advertising the crowning of a new leader-] or “el bicio malo nunca muere (!). But then I went back to drafting contracts and briefs, and held on to my daytime job, as someone would undoubtedly recommend I ought to do.
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Date Jan. 1 2009 8:23:52
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Ricardo
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (in reply to srshea)
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I have never picked a guitar for it's looks, and certainly not the rosette. I both love the look of the flowery ornate conde rosettes, and respect what anders is saying about it being personal work of a luthier. Both have merit IMO. I like those wood inlay rosettes too. Anyway, I have a pet peeve that I don't understand.
I understand many luthier regardless if they make the rosettes themselves etc, have the guitar finished at "the finisher's", meaning they actually don't finish themselves. To me that is really significant compaired to say a rosette design. Anyway,, my pet peeve is that I notice on many supposed hand built guitars such as the old sobrinos de esteso, Ramirez, even Arcangel Fernandez, that they finish OVER TOP of the rosete with orange or whatever, and destroy the bright color scheme. What is THAT about? Like I said I have seen it on ARcangel Fernandez, paco's Sobrinos de esteso (he actually wore the laquer off the rosette in spots) and my own guitar. I think that sucks. I prefer the "factory conde" look where the color of the rosette is not touched by the color finish.
Anyone know what I mean? Is that a mistake of the finisher, or what?
Ricardo
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Date Jan. 1 2009 10:24:33
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jshelton5040
Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
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RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
Anyway, I have a pet peeve that I don't understand.
I understand many luthier regardless if they make the rosettes themselves etc, have the guitar finished at "the finisher's", meaning they actually don't finish themselves. To me that is really significant compaired to say a rosette design. Anyway,, my pet peeve is that I notice on many supposed hand built guitars such as the old sobrinos de esteso, Ramirez, even Arcangel Fernandez, that they finish OVER TOP of the rosete with orange or whatever, and destroy the bright color scheme. What is THAT about? Like I said I have seen it on ARcangel Fernandez, paco's Sobrinos de esteso (he actually wore the laquer off the rosette in spots) and my own guitar. I think that sucks. I prefer the "factory conde" look where the color of the rosette is not touched by the color finish.
Anyone know what I mean? Is that a mistake of the finisher, or what?
Ricardo
It's almost impossible to mask a rosette when French polishing. So if one uses French polish with a tint it's put over the rosette. Normally if you see a guitar with a lot of color like the orange Condes you can assume it's lacquer or one of the new wonder finishes that is sprayed on. You apply clear coats then mask the rosette before spraying the color coat. Pull the tape off and apply more clear coats over everything. One normally masks the bone inlay in the bridge as well if you glue the bridge on before finishing. Sometimes people spray build up coats including the color coat then apply French polish after pulling off the masking tape. There are many ways to finish.
I agree with you about putting the color over the rosette. It saves time but doesn't look good.
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Date Jan. 1 2009 11:49:09
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Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
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RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (in reply to srshea)
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The main problem with the traditional mosaic rosette is that its time consuming and difficult. Very few are capable of making the quality that they make in Korea, Japan or Russia.
BUT... I know what it means to me, when someone says that my rosettes are beautifull and they ask me if I made it myself. Then I can say yes and be proud. Those of you using factory made rosettes are loosing that. I dont understand.
The fact that you make your own rosettes doesnt mean that you dont use the time on fine tuning. Of course not.
John, No I dont make my own tuning machines. I dont conisider them part of the artistical work of a guitar but a practical, not to good looking metal thing. I buy pegs, but I shave them individually in order to have them work well. I also make my own tentelones (peones) and my own inner lining. I make my own binding and I make my own purfling using bought in veneer. I used to use a premade purfling on my rosettes, but since I felt it wasnt my work, I stopped that and I make my own. I´m going "backwards" I make more and more things myself. and each step backward gives me a higher quality of life. A quality of life is the main reason I build guitars.
Ricardo, You are right, not finishing your own guitar is loosing control. I used to leave it to a pro, but now I finish myself..
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Date Jan. 1 2009 13:38:24
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Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
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RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (in reply to srshea)
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What all this is about for me, is that the rosette and the headstock is basically the only places on a guitar where you can make art. The rest is so standartized that it cannot be called art.
You dont even have to put a rosette in guitar. If you reinforce the soundboard underneath with a "donut" then its not nescessary to use rosettes. Its 100 % cosmetical.
To me its the builders print. Where he/she can be personal and make a difference. In a world where everything is getting more and more the same (all cars look the same. We all look the same) I think its sad that guitarmakers want to be like that as well.  When using factory made rosettes, your guitars look just like well made factory guitars like Conde etc.
Factory made mosaic rosettes:
IMHO, the high quality factory made rosettes are now so detailed and "perfect" that they lack appeal. The veneer is 0,3mm and this means that the detail is very high. It also means that the factory rosettes that I know off look flat when the guitar has been finished. I find that the contrast, the direct appeal etc. disappear on these designs. And of course, the handmade feel is totally gone. They are way to perfect and symetrical. They are just high quality reproductions of something that once was a personal made thing. And as with everything else made this way:
Boring, plain, mediocre, lack of taste and personality.
Art has and will never be perfect. Because when it is so, its not art anymore and a true artist should find something else to do.
Hapy new year
There´s nothing better than starting a new year being a radical purist. It feels good. 
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Date Jan. 2 2009 0:05:57
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson
What all this is about for me, is that the rosette and the headstock is basically the only places on a guitar where you can make art. The rest is so standartized that it cannot be called art.
You dont even have to put a rosette in guitar. If you reinforce the soundboard underneath with a "donut" then its not nescessary to use rosettes. Its 100 % cosmetical.
To me its the builders print. Where he/she can be personal and make a difference. In a world where everything is getting more and more the same (all cars look the same. We all look the same) I think its sad that guitarmakers want to be like that as well. When using factory made rosettes, your guitars look just like well made factory guitars like Conde etc.
Factory made mosaic rosettes:
IMHO, the high quality factory made rosettes are now so detailed and "perfect" that they lack appeal. The veneer is 0,3mm and this means that the detail is very high. It also means that the factory rosettes that I know off look flat when the guitar has been finished. I find that the contrast, the direct appeal etc. disappear on these designs. And of course, the handmade feel is totally gone. They are way to perfect and symetrical. They are just high quality reproductions of something that once was a personal made thing. And as with everything else made this way:
Boring, plain, mediocre, lack of taste and personality.
Art has and will never be perfect. Because when it is so, its not art anymore and a true artist should find something else to do.
Hapy new year
There´s nothing better than starting a new year being a radical purist. It feels good.
Anders, how long have you been making guitars? And I'll say that some people are more mentally abstract than others. Personally, I like to make things as perfect as possible in all of the guitar's functions.
I understand that the first priority is to make the guitar desirable in its appearance so that the player would choose to pick it up and play it. But if the guitar doesn't speak to the player then the appearance is for nothing. I'm sure you would agree with this.
But art has to do with each individual maker and it is the entire guitar that is art, not just a couple of facets. We have weight, balance, feel, design of the plantilla, the way the guitar is voiced, and pretty motifs, as far as the head and rosette design. All of this comes into the realm of art. And a player will know if the articulation is right when he first picks up the guitar and plays it.
I think its important not to forget that each guitar will speak for itself and there is no one thing that will make a guitar excellent unless these other facets follow along to make the entire guitar a true work of art.
I might add that many factories have excellent workmanship and glue joints so there has to be a more excellent way for the independant builder. And this talk about whether a rosette should be handmade or factory made is not, in my opinion, the real thrust of a guitar's appeal.
The point is to design a rosette that has eye appeal, not that it is handmade. And there is no such thing as a flat looking rosette when design/color appeal is considered.
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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
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Date Jan. 2 2009 4:49:40
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