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Americans in flamenco honored in Spain
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Mark2
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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 RE: Americans in flamenco honored in... (in reply to zata)
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Yeah, those pesky moronies like Brook, Kenny, David, etc. They are so ......opinionated. I'm no moronie, but I have nothing but respect for the ones I know.
quote:
ORIGINAL: zata
quote:
"And all the while, the image of Diego del Gastor projected onto the backdrop, recalled the centennial of the Morón guitarist so admired by American flamenco fans".
Ummm, some handful of American flamenco fans....
I have to apologize for that sentence because it does a misservice to many American flamenco followers. Unfortunately, I have to be scrupulously careful to tell it "the other" way in order to avoid another round of threats to my bodily integrity. "Freedom of the press" only goes as far as people are willing to respect it.
For the record, a total of four Spanish flamenco artists also resorted to threats of violence regarding other issues...it's an effective technique. Fellow critics assure me it goes along with the job.
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Date Dec. 3 2008 10:25:32
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: Americans in flamenco honored in... (in reply to Mark2)
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quote:
Yeah, those pesky moronies like Brook, Kenny, David, etc. They are so ......opinionated. I'm no moronie, but I have nothing but respect for the ones I know.
You would probably find it less fun to be with the ones who say they're going to hunt you down and "teach you a lesson you'll never forget" (and other threats much less fit to be repeated) for having dared to express what you consider an observable truth.
Even you, whoever you are, are a victim. Ricardo was offended when I implied Americans universally worship Diego del Gastor, and rightly so. You received that twisted bit of "information" because certain people don't want it told any other way.
My belief is you don't need to be a journalist, or even be right, in order to be entitled to protest threats of violence.
_____________________________
Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
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Date Dec. 3 2008 10:47:12
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Mark2
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: Americans in flamenco honored in... (in reply to zata)
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I would never avocate violence because someone expressed an opinion. I can understand feelings of outrage by passionate people who disagree on matters important to them when a contrary opinion is published, but again, threats and violence are uncalled for IMO.
People can judge for themselves what they think of Diego, his playing, and his legacy. From reading Porhen, I developed an admiration of Diego not based on his playing, but his personality. Although his is not my favorite style, I think I've also come to understand the appeal in his playing. Some people that were there to witness it firsthand, to get to know the person he was and the scene he lived in, obviously have a deeply positive emotional connection to that. What you consider a observeable truth is obviously not universally accepted as such.
Whether or not a moronie wants to discredit someone with a contrary opinion doesn't make me a victim, and is not of much interest to me. I don't know if Ricardo was offended, but from reading his enormous contributions on this forum over the years, I'd be surprised if he was dismissive of any good flamenco artists or aficianados. I don't think there's much question that moronies include some of both.
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Date Dec. 3 2008 12:00:06
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: Americans in flamenco honored in... (in reply to Mark2)
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quote:
What you consider a observeable truth is obviously not universally accepted as such.
You are wrong. And I even wonder what you think that particular truth is that I had the daring to express. I said and wrote many times what so many others have also written and said: Diego del Gastor has never enjoyed the kind of adulation in Spain that so many Americans express. In fact, when Son de la Frontera put out their first record and talked about Diego, Spanish flamencos would constantly ask me who he was, since I was living in Morón and they assumed I would know. That is of course not a critique of his playing, but a provable and yes, observable truth about something not related to music at all. Paco de Lucía knows it, José Manuel Gamboa knows it, Pepe Torres knows it and Brook Zern knows it too, to name just a few.
>> Whether or not a moronie wants to discredit
>> someone with a contrary opinion doesn't make me a victim.
You are the victim of my misleading comment that Ricardo quickly picked up on, written so as not to provoke further threats.
I was in flamenco before Don Pohren introduced Americans to Diego, I was responsible for airing in New York in 1966, at my own expense, the famous “bandanna on head” documentary of Diego, I watched the movement grow, I was living in Morón three years while Diego was still alive, continued to live there until 2005 and have ample criteria to describe my observations.
>> I don't think there's much question
>> that moronies include some of both.
There are those who behave in acceptable ways, and those who wish to control others via threats of violence. It’s not a music issue, but a criminal one.
_____________________________
Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
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Date Dec. 3 2008 12:42:57
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Mark2
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: Americans in flamenco honored in... (in reply to zata)
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Well I did agree that Paco was the best guitarist in the universe, but the definition of "Universal" according to my dictionary is:
2. Relating to, involving, or affecting all of those belonging to a given class or group
That would seem to include even those who disagree with you and Paco.
Not many would ever claim that flamencos don't think much of Sabicas, and yet, how many current guitarists play his falsetas? And somehow there is a group including Spanish flamencos who play Diego material, the guitarist who flamencos universally :-) dismiss. I was not a victim, as I have read many things you have written on the net over the years in regards to Diego. And many of them were more critical than the quote above regarding him being less "adolized"
That statement I wouldn't argue with. But even though I might agree with you, Paco, etc, doesn't make it a universal truth unless of course you know every flamenco and aficianado in Spain. Perhaps since you've been in it so long that's the case.
Someone wrote that anyone who creates so much controversy must be a great artist. I guess I should learn a few of his falsetas.
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Date Dec. 3 2008 13:22:17
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: Americans in flamenco honored in... (in reply to Mark2)
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quote:
That would seem to include even those who disagree with you and Paco.
I cannot begin to imagine what it is you think people “disagree” with (?). Diego not being known in Spain outside a small circle until Son de la Frontera put his music in the spotlight is a fact. Even Raúl Rodríguez who founded the group didn't know who Diego was until much later on.
>> Not many would ever claim that flamencos
>> don't think much of Sabicas, and yet, how
>> many current guitarists play his falsetas?
Nearly everyone, without even knowing it. But what has that to do with Diego del Gastor? Sabicas was no cult figure, but a mainstream star in the US, and he became well-known in Spain as soon as his recordings circulated. He is very respected by flamenco guitarists.
>> And somehow there is a group including
>> Spanish flamencos who play Diego material,
>> the guitarist who flamencos universally :-) dismiss.
No, there is no such group in this country. Before Son de la Frontera, you could cite Paco Cepero as being an admirer without actually playing any Diego-related falsetas, and Raimundo Amador became associated with Diego falsetas without people realizing they weren’t his. After the arrival of Son de la Frontera, and their modern take on the same music, Rafael Rodriguez and two or three younger guitarists adopted the best-known falsetas without emulating the playing style. If there’s anyone else, I’d be happy to know about them to include in my conference. I believe part of the success of Son de la Frontera is their lack of contemporary harmony which has been so overdone.
I wonder whom you think said Diego was “universally dismissed”? That would be the person you ought to be stalking. I gave a true picture of the landscape, it’s my job to communicate observations as accurately as possible. What I described continues to be true, even in the era of Son de la Frontera: Diego del Gastor is an American social phenomenon, independently of his modest posthumous fame.
It was eleven years ago when I commented on several forums that Diego was little-known in this country, and at the time I was astonished to discover Americans didn’t know that. That was many years before Son de la Frontera; today it’s much easier to find references to his playing, and the centennial has put his name in circulation, that’s why people celebrate such dates.
>> I was not a victim, as I have read many things you
>> have written on the net over the years in regards to
>> Diego. And many of them were more critical than
>> the quote above regarding him being less "adolized"
`
If you’d ever actually read me, you’d know I never tolerate gratuitous paraphrasing. Since I know exactly what I’ve written, and your words are a potential threat to my life, it behoves you to cite direct quotes or admit having accepted the campaign of a small group of psychopaths as a sort of “reality by repetition”.
>> Someone wrote that anyone who creates
>> so much controversy must be a great artist. I
>> guess I should learn a few of his falsetas.
Serial killers also generate controversy, but that doesn’t tell us anything about the kind of music they might play.
_____________________________
Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
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Date Dec. 3 2008 15:44:30
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Kate
Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía
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RE: Americans in flamenco honored in... (in reply to zata)
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Hi Estela,
Just read the report. Nice that Richard Black played and wonderfully ironic that you picked up the award considering how some of these people have behaved towards you.
Don't tell me those morons are still running around Andalucia telling porkies and rabble rousing. At least the flamencos acknowledge your work and expertise. It must have made the jealous ones seethe with anger when you were honoured for your contribution to flamenco at La Union, and that was even before the amazing research you did into the ganañía was published and highly prized and oh dear won another award and didn't the website you write for also win the critics award.
For anyone here who reads Spanish Estela's book 'Flamencos de la Ganañía' is a fascinating insight into the lives and music of the Gypsies who worked for the landowners in the Franco years after the Civil War, not just from a flamenco point of view but also sociological. Not many people in Spain have such a wide knowledge of flamenco, past and present, never mind an American lady, and even fewer who can write so well.
If the rabble rousers who poisoned the original forum ( I joined that ten years ago and left in disgust at the regular stream of personal insults, threats and obscenities ) come here withe same attitude and start attacking respected members they will be asked to leave.
Mark 2 is treading a very fine line here between saying he does not want to stir things up and yet doing so. It is extremely important to quote each other accurately as oppose to paraphrase and not take quotes out of their all important context. I for one would not trust anyone who tried to cite old quotes from that old flamenco forum.
Doits the fact that a flamenco festival in Spain pays tribute to the American affcionadas is an honour, interpretating that as a commercial exercise is to judge flamenco by the wrong criteria. Honour amongst flamencos is everything, commercial success is not.
_____________________________
Emilio Maya Temple
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000CA6OBC
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/emiliomaya
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Date Dec. 5 2008 0:12:50
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: Americans in flamenco honored in... (in reply to Kate)
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I feel compelled to explain some things about the Puertollano contest.
The organizers are the same people who put together the wonderful tribute to Fernanda de Utrera some years ago when her health began to fail. It took many months of thankless work, and begging for favors at the offical level, and of course, no one received a salary.
The contest was founded two years ago in the same selfless spirit, to promote and support interest in flamenco singing, while at the same time specifically discouraging professional contestants, people who make a career out of how to win contests, regularly making the rounds, easily carrying off juicy prizes thanks to their ability to conquer nervousness, their knowledge of how to present a contest application, knowing what judges are looking for, etc….
No one made any money except the prizewinners and the hired performers. Individual members of the organization were quick to use their own money to pay for meals, taxis and similar expenses. I’ve never seen a more dedicated and cohesive group of people.
The honorary award in recognition of American flamencos was the same statuette given to Carmen Linares for her work, there was no cash prize, and the organization was genuinely thrilled to have Lakshmi and Richard perform.
It’s an open secret that flamenco is foundering in Spain and no one seems to know what to do about it. The people in Puertollano, not even part of Andalusia, are valiently, tirelessly and selflessly defending this genre which is slipping away before our eyes.
_____________________________
Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
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Date Dec. 5 2008 0:59:09
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I guess I understand your need to be on eggshells for certain reasons with wording. I think there are some clever ways to tell the truth without making folks upset, but it takes some serious thought. 
