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"normal"?
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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 "normal"?
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Hi, This is, i think, the first time i have actually been in this (luthiery) forum, (apart from replying to a thread about 5 minutes ago), though i've been around on the foro generally for a while. So I've finally ventured into this luthiery section (an area of discussion which i feel completely ignorant of) as i have some questions which have been formulating for some time.
I have a guitar by an obscure maker who I know nothing about, apart from it says on the label "Manuel Fernandez Fernandez, Constructor De Guitarras, Flamencas Y De Concierto, Hospital De Santa Ana No.12, Granada Espana". The year is 1997.
Anyone else who plays my guitar always says it has a wide neck, though it seems quite normal to me as I've been playing it for about 10 years (maybe 11, though I guess not more than that...  ). It's 54mm wide at the nut, and 65mm wide at the 12th fret, with the top and bottom E strings about 61mm apart on the bridge bone. Is this unusually wide? And if so, what is "normal"?
The other thing about this guitar is that it seems to be quite small in the body, only 86-87mm deep, 272mm across the upper bout, approx 363mm across the lower bout, and approx 493mm long. Are these dimensions unusually small, and if so, again, what is "normal"?
I'm quite tall, 6'2"/1m88cm, and have correspondingly long arms and big hands, so while the wide neck feels ok for me, the body of the guitar feels quite small. When I look at most spanish players the body of the guitar seems a lot larger relative to the body of the player than my guitar does relative to me, and I have had quite a lot of discomfort which i partly attribute to this size issue.
I wonder if anyone can tell me if it would be possible to have a guitar constructed proprtionately larger, and if this would necessarily affect the sound, and if so in what ways?
thanks in advance
mark
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Date Nov. 18 2008 10:44:53
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: "normal"? (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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thanks for the info Anders, i guess by "normal" what i am meaning is usual, typical, tipico, or something like that, and i would expect it to be within a range rather than one specific figure.
so my guitar is at the wide end of "normal" at the nut (54mm), and a little wider than "normal" at the 12th fret and bridge.... that's interesting, partly as i've been thinking that if the strings were a little closer together it might help with string crossing in picado, and it's the body end of the guitar where they are a little outside the range of "normal".
"plantilla"? template? does that mean the shape of the front/table/soundboard of the guitar of the guitar? i guess it does.... and i guess "a little bit bigger but not much" means only a few mm? it would be nice to at least have a guitar as big as it can reasonably be, given my large-ish frame, and 10mm deeper would at least be a little something extra to drape my long arms around!
i once played a "bass" spanish guitar, literally like huge a rosewood classical with six strings, but each an octave lower, so the top E (1st string) was actually a bottom E (6th string) and the B, G, D, A and low E were correspondingly lower. I didn't know such a monster existed until it came out of the box in the shop to show me! And although i didn't have a clue what to play or how to play it (i've never played bass) it was really comfortable to hold, it just sat on me really, i didn't have to "hold" it at all!
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Date Nov. 18 2008 14:21:26
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Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
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RE: "normal"? (in reply to mark indigo)
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Mark, I know what you are saying about size. I´m 1,83 and it took me a long time to find a good sitting position.
My size also meant that I have made bigger guitars, but I find that there´s a limit. Its my limit, of course, and maybe other builders can work bigger, But I have a clear feeling that bigger is not better.
Yes, plantilla is template. I´m not a native English speaker so you hav to live with a bit of Spanglish sometimes.
My template is 49,2mm long, 28mm upper bout, 37,2mm lower bout and I normally build around 97mm deep.
I sometimes build a litle bit smaller.
Some concerns about size. (Not body) for you:
I would strongly recommend 54mm nut and 660mm scale for you. I personally adjust well to different nut and scale sizes if I like a guitar. BUT... String spacing at the bridge is something else. I dont like it to big. 61mm is way to big for me. Standard, 58 or 59mm works the best for almost all players. Its a compromise and to big or to small I dont adjust to.
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Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
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Date Nov. 18 2008 23:10:16
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: "normal"? (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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quote:
My size also meant that I have made bigger guitars, but I find that there´s a limit. Its my limit, of course, and maybe other builders can work bigger, But I have a clear feeling that bigger is not better.
i'm curious, what actually happens if/when you build bigger?
quote:
Yes, plantilla is template. I´m not a native English speaker so you hav to live with a bit of Spanglish sometimes.
just checking i understood right, learning more spanish vocabulary is good for me, and "spanglish" is fun too.
quote:
I would strongly recommend 54mm nut and 660mm scale for you.... String spacing at the bridge is something else. I dont like it to big. 61mm is way to big for me. Standard, 58 or 59mm works the best for almost all players.
the wide nut is fine, but i've been wondering recently if a smaller string spacing at bridge would be better for me, maybe i could get a new bridge bone with the grooves closer together to try it out?
another (slightly crazy) idea i had was to make a large/oversized guitar shaped "frame" or false body that the small/standard bodied guitar could fit inside of, so that (hopefully) the acoustic properties of the guitar would not be affected, but the proportions of guitar to body could be altered to improve ergonomics!
I have heard of guitars being fitted with false backs, so that the back of the guitar doesn't rest against the players body and lose resonance and volume by being damped out. This idea just extends the concept to include the sides as well as the back.... so might actually improve acoustic quality?
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Date Nov. 19 2008 11:37:44
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: "normal"? (in reply to RobJe)
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quote:
Manuel Fernandez Fernández died in September 1997.
thanks for the info rob, i guess my guitar must have been one of the last, if not the last, guitar he built.
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I don’t really notice the body size when I play. The most critical dimension for me is the thickness of the neck and its profile.
for the left hand i agree (and i love the wide flat neck on this guitar), but for the right hand....
anders has pointed out that string spacing at the bridge can make a difference, which is something i have begun to think about recently (see previous post), and i'm still curious to experiment with this.
as for body size, at the moment i cannot say for certain what difference it might make, but from just holding larger bodied steel string and bass guitars i am thinking that maybe my right hand wrist would not need to be so bent in 2 different planes, and that this could help particularly with keeping the hand flat to the guitar in picado technique.
I have had my current guitar for 10-11 years, and have adapted to it fairly well, but partly for comfort, and partly because i'm constantly pushing against technical limitations, i am thinking about any small changes that might give me an edge in overcoming limitations.
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Date Nov. 19 2008 11:52:47
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: "normal"? (in reply to Ron.M)
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quote:
Is it just maybe because he's a great Flamenco Guitarist?
well, yeah, like obviously he's great an' all, and having a bigger or smaller guitar is not going to instantly turn me into Paco De Lucia, Paco Pena, or in fact Paco anybody, but my point about size and proportions is, if anything, exemplifried (is that the right word?!) by what you say about PP:
quote:
Paco Peña is a petite guy, maybe just about 5ft.0" or so and fairly slight built.
Yet he plays all kinds of guitars, including some (seemingly) very large ones (like that big Gerundino)
so if you measure his "very large Gerundino", and you measure the "petite" Señor Peña and you create from this an optimum ratio of guitar size to player, what frickin' size monster guitar would old bean pole here at 6' 2" need??!!!
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Date Nov. 19 2008 12:25:57
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: "normal"? (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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quote:
Mark, In my first post I wrote:
I dont like building bigger. I find that you loose projection and that the trebles loose "flamenco sound"
sorry anders, of course you did, i didn't go back and check what you'd already said/posted
quote:
It could be possible to build a double sided guitar as you describe. In my eyes, I´m not to sure I would like it and finding a suitable case would be difficult.
it's just an idea really, i have no idea what it would be like or if it would work, but it might fit in a steel string jumbo or dreadnought case, or a spanish bass guitar (not sure what they're actually called) case and/or it is possible to get flight cases made to order whatever specifications/dimensions you want.... at a price!
quote:
I´m sitting in a half trad position.
what's this?
quote:
Another solution if you sit with cross legs is to do like Gerardo Nuñez, lifting the guitar more by having you crossed leg in a different angle.
i get a lot of problems crossing one leg over the other like Paco or Gerardo, i cannot seem to help twisting my pelvis and spine, putting a lot of strain on my shoulders and neck, and giving me problems in tendons hands and fingers. I don't realise i am twisting or straining until i get pain in my fingers, and cannot seem to get around it sitting that way. Using a footstool under my right foot is a bit better, still the same problems, but less so. At the moment i am using a "gitano" guitar support, which is the best solution so far, the guitar is more or less where it would be if i crossed one leg over the other, but without the twisting and straining.
Really though, my right arm needs to rest higher and further out from my body than it does on my small bodied shallow guitar, which is why i think either a larger bodied guitar or a larger false back and sides frame would help purely from the ergonomic point of view.
BTW i started out using the trad position, sat cross legged to play for at least 10 years, experimented with footstool for a while, and have used the guitar support now for about 5 years
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Date Nov. 20 2008 10:04:51
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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RE: "normal"? (in reply to mark indigo)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mark indigo
quote:
Mark, In my first post I wrote:
I dont like building bigger. I find that you loose projection and that the trebles loose "flamenco sound"
sorry anders, of course you did, i didn't go back and check what you'd already said/posted
quote:
It could be possible to build a double sided guitar as you describe. In my eyes, I´m not to sure I would like it and finding a suitable case would be difficult.
it's just an idea really, i have no idea what it would be like or if it would work, but it might fit in a steel string jumbo or dreadnought case, or a spanish bass guitar (not sure what they're actually called) case and/or it is possible to get flight cases made to order whatever specifications/dimensions you want.... at a price!
quote:
I´m sitting in a half trad position.
what's this?
quote:
Another solution if you sit with cross legs is to do like Gerardo Nuñez, lifting the guitar more by having you crossed leg in a different angle.
i get a lot of problems crossing one leg over the other like Paco or Gerardo, i cannot seem to help twisting my pelvis and spine, putting a lot of strain on my shoulders and neck, and giving me problems in tendons hands and fingers. I don't realise i am twisting or straining until i get pain in my fingers, and cannot seem to get around it sitting that way. Using a footstool under my right foot is a bit better, still the same problems, but less so. At the moment i am using a "gitano" guitar support, which is the best solution so far, the guitar is more or less where it would be if i crossed one leg over the other, but without the twisting and straining.
Really though, my right arm needs to rest higher and further out from my body than it does on my small bodied shallow guitar, which is why i think either a larger bodied guitar or a larger false back and sides frame would help purely from the ergonomic point of view.
BTW i started out using the trad position, sat cross legged to play for at least 10 years, experimented with footstool for a while, and have used the guitar support now for about 5 years
Mark,
If you are asking for a larger guitar to accommodate your size then take into consideration that the smallest bit of increase in size would be fine for your techniques. I'm 6'2" and the modern flamenco guitars work just fine for me. I don't sit cross legged either as it hurts my back but I find the modern sizes fairly easy to operate with, and with very little adjustment on my part.
It stands to reason that very small increments in size are easy to adjust to; it's a matter of you deciding to work with it rather than trying to have a guitar built out of its arena of good practice. I think you would be surprised how much effect a slightly larger size would have on you.
_____________________________
Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
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Date Nov. 20 2008 17:32:18
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: "normal"? (in reply to RobJe)
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quote:
Perhaps the posts have been a bit hard on you Mark!
yeah, they're a hard lot, but i'm used to it by now....
...only kidding!
seriously, i haven't felt the posts have been hard on me, 'cos i have been told before that it's better for the sound to make guitars smaller, i just wanted to sound out people on here for their opinions and ideas on the subject.
I wouldn't want to ask any luthier to make some kind of Frankenstein monster they wouldn't be proud of, and actually this is all a bit hypothetical 'cos i don't actually have any money at the moment.... but one day!
meant to get back to Anders on a few things;
quote:
Also consider that adjusting to a very special guitar would mean that you wouldnt like to play other guitars. So no enjoying other peoples Reyes , Conde, Grundino etc. Scary, no?
i agree, but as i have played with a guitar support for a long time and this is the best way for me that i have tried so far (including trad position, paco de lucia position, footstool/manolo sanlucar position, etc.) i would have to put guitar support on any other guitar i would play, and often people don't want suction cups on their guitar.... ok, sure i can play for a little while in PDL or footstool/MS position, but not for long....
the idea of a big false frame/body that a standard size guitar fits into has the potential, though, of being used to fit any standard size guitar into it.... yeah, ok, i know, it's just a bit too crazy, but a nice idea!
quote:
No seriously, If you cant get a right position with a Gitano support. (I´ve played with it as well) I think you have to work seriously with your sitting position.
my sitting is fine, and like i said, with the guitar support is the best so far.... left hand is fine, and right hand fingers come on guitar ok, just that right hand wrist is a little too bent over, and i keep thinking that i want my forearm to be resting a little higher up than it does.... if the plantilla was wider it would do, and the wrist would be less bent.... i would love to have a webcam to show you exactly what i mean!
quote:
I take for granted that you use it on the right leg as you should on a flamenco guitar and not on the left leg as supposed on a classical.
yes, right leg, the guitar ends up in a more or less similar position to how you demonstrate holding the guitar in your video (thanks for posting that).
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Date Nov. 25 2008 10:36:40
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