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RE: Thumb 'Apoyando' -> How to do on 2nd string with i upstroke on 1st
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Erik van Goch
Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands
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 RE: Thumb 'Apoyando' -> How to do... (in reply to junheng)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: junheng
quote:
I do it all the time. As a matter of fact i tend to operate my thump using subtle arm/hand/wrist moves rather then plugging with the thump itself. In above situation i do the same with the index... i don't feel it like plugging the string with the index but like lifting my hand for the next round (hitting the string with the index is merely incidental).
So in above situation i concentrate on lifting the "arm/wrist/hand" unit for the next round.... obviously when that unit raises so does your thump and index since they are part of your hand (even better thump and index raise simultaneously so are not likely to clinch) All you have to do is make sure the thump doesn't hit the above string(s) (unless you want it to) and that the index does (unless you don't want it to). Your index can give a little extra support if you want by additional plugging but plugging the string can also be operated by raising the hand/arm/wrist unit only with speed and relaxation as your main weapon.
Hi Erik. Yesterday I took to heart the advice on this thread about relaxing the thumb and practiced for 3 hours, working mostly on the two falsettas I've mentioned: the triplet falsetta (p down apoyando + i up tirando) and the other falsetta (p down apoyando + ima argeggio up tirando). At the end I got it and discovered exactly what you said above, ie that simply relaxing the right hand and focussing on moving the whole *unit* up and down resolves (naturally) the occasional conflict between p and i around the middle strings. It's also fun to play! This is stupendous stuff!
Cheers! junheng
You must have been pretty motivated to get the feeling that quick...most students need 9 lessons of monkey see, monkey do to get a hung of it (maybe that practice 2 hour or more tip of Philip Hii does indeed work).
You might also like to know that:
* I favor to play the thump APOYANDO with the thump landing on the next string.
* I don't focus on the string that is plugged but on the one below, the one where the thump lands on after plugging (like in above index situation the plugging is merely a by-product).
* If that landing string happens to be the next string to be plugged the thump remains on string and generally is not lifted in between.
* I hardly ever play with the thump itself, in stead i use subtle arm(rotating) moves .
Imagine a bee stings the point of your thump and you try to ease the pain by flapping your hand, using wrist-flapping GENERATED BY THE ROTATION OF YOUR FOREARM. If you wave your hand gently like that and then stop suddenly you probably end up with a good playing position... and i bed you don't have a tensed forearm/wrist/hand/thump during or after waving....and that after going from waving > stop your hand and fingers probably end up in the same relative position time after time ...BECAUSE THEY ARE RELAXED..... and that that relative position probably is very similar to the relaxed wrist/hand/finger lineup you have when you walk. If you just move that relaxed "walking hand unit" to the place of the action (the strings) without moving a muscle you probably end up with a good starting position for all techniques (although one might turn the hand a little bid to get a more transverse position from the fingers towards the string when needed).
PLAYING PULGAR:
* I hardly ever play with the thump itself, in stead i use subtle arm/wrist moves (the wrist moves are actually caused by a rotating forearm as well).
* My wrist moves can comfortably cover 2 neighboring strings using arm rotating only (3 if i insist).
* Since i favor to cover 2 neighboring strings at the time in any given position, each combination of strings has it's own matching arm position (like satellite orbitings)
* When more strings are involved (for instance when stroking a chord) wrist moves are replaced/supported by pushing my arm down (the relaxed wrist/hand/thump unit has no choice but to fallow).
STRUMMING A CHORD WITH PULGAR:
Position your walking hand in such a way that it brings the thump on the upper base string. Next, move/push your arm downwards >>>> while pushing your forearm down your hand and thump will automatically fallow, allowing your thump to stroke the chord in the process (stroking the chord is once again a by-product of bringing your hand unit down). As long as the added pressure is strong enough and the thump is placed/used in such a way that it can easily glide from string to string the thump/hand unit will fallow that arm like a leached dog fallows it's master..... but like unwilling dogs the flow can be frustrated/interrupted when the thump gets stuck into one of the strings by pushing to deep to soon or by making to much skin contact. Above arm downstroke can be supported by additional arm rotation if you want. When playing the last note of the chord push/dig/anchor your thump into the landing string (so the last note is played a little more "into the guitar" anchoring your thump into the neighboring string).
ARM PENDLING-ON SPOT ARM ROTATION-CIRCULAR MOVES:
I just stroke a chord by pushing my complete arm downwards (you can also see it as letting it just fall by gravity). The last note was played a little more "into the guitar" making my thump land on the neighboring string (one could call that the anchoring string). When my thump lands on the anchor string the correct way my hand/thump unit is in an excellent position to cover the previous 2 strings for melody playing, using ARM ROTATION only (so without moving the position of my arm other then rotating the forearm)
---anchor string------------------------------------1
---0--0--0---0---------0--------0------------------2
---0--------------/-0--------0-----------------------3
---0--------------------------------------------------4
---0--------------------------------------------------5
---0--------------------------------------------------6
....p.>
I'm pretty sure that when i ask various foro members to lift there thump from the anchor string like described (using arm rotation only) there thumps will end up moving in various directions. The problem (and power) of using arm rotation is that it generates circular moves who happen to be very sensible/responsive to various factors. Intended or not intended variations in thump/hand/arm position can lead to totally different outcomes. I guess we are all familiar with playing rasgueado. Those fingers actually produce (avoidable) circular moves as well and when you use them the outcome completely depends on how you position your hand. If the circle points into the sky to much your fingers will mostly hit air, if the circle points into the guitar to much the fingers might strand into the first strings. It's the very same thing when playing arm rotated pulgars. It's a little bit like bow and arrow, the outcome completely depends on how good you can aim that circle. The good thing is that (even) small variations in hand position give me a pleasant choice of optional outcomes.
anchoring striong:
As stated, when my thump lands on the anchor string the correct way my hand/thump unit is in an excellent position to cover the previous 2 strings for melody playing, using ARM ROTATION only (so without moving the position of my arm other then rotating the forearm)
---anchor string------------------------------------1
---0--0--0---0---------0--------0------------------2
---0--------------/-0--------0-----------------------3
---0--------------------------------------------------4
---0--------------------------------------------------5
---0--------------------------------------------------6
....p.>
When i anchor on the 1th string the thump can cover string 2 and 3
When i anchor on the 2th string (b-string) i can cover string 3 and 4 and so on
---anchor--string-----------------------------------------------------------------------
---0--0--0---0---------0--------0-------anchor -string-------------------------------
---0--------------/-0--------0------------0---0--0--0-------0--------0---------------
---0---------------------------------------0--------------/0-------0--------------------
---0---------------------------------------0---------------------------------------------
---0--------------------------------------/0---------------------------------------------
....p>
You can integrate the index in the arm-movement, being a (supportive) by-product of lifting your your hand by arm rotation:
-----------0>---------------0>------------------------------------------------------------
-------0----------------0----------------------------------------------------------------
---0-----------0--/-0----------0---/-0------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
....p....p...i....p.../.p...p...i.....p.../..p
The right arm just stays were it is, both the pulgar and the index can be played by (arm rotated) wrist moves only, using the weight of your hand as power source. The left hand can grab whatever you like, the right hand doesn't have to know...all it has to know is which string order it has to play. If you replace above open strings for a couple off well chosen notes you end up playing Soleares.
-----------0-----------------0------------------------------------------------------------
-------1-----------------1----------------------------------------------------------------
---2-----------2---/-4----------4---/--0------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
....p....p...i....p..../.p...p...i.....p.../..p
The way i chose to play every (paired) string-combination has it's own ideal arm position (string a,d,g,b and e can function as anchor places)
---anchor--string--------------------------------------------------------------------
---------0--------0----anchor--string-----------------------------------------------
----0--------0--------------0--------0----anchor string----------------------------
-----------------------/0---------0--------------0----------0------anchor string---
--------------------------------------------/0----------0---------------0---------0---
--------------------------------------------------------------------/0--------0--------
.....p
The funny thing is that your right hand not only doesn't have to know what the left hand is doing, in a way it also doesn't need to no which string combination is going to be played next because let's be honest, 2/3 or 3/4 or 4/5 or 5/6, it's always the same combination of 1 or 2 strings with always the same in-between distance. But ain't there different anchor places? Yes, but that is only a matter of moving that well tuned wrist move to the new place of action. Scratching your butt and scratching the back of your neck is basically the same thing, all that is different is your arm position (bringing the hand to the place of the action). It works the same with that string playing hand unit. The wrist move is the result of ROTATING your forearm, changing string combination is the result of SIMULTANEOUSLY LIFTING/LOWERING your arm as well.
To me it feels like playing the same thing over and over again:
---anchor--string-----------------------------
---------0--------0*-------0--------------------
----0--------0--------/0-----------------------
------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------
.....p.....p....p....p.../p....p....p....p....
But by lifting my arm simultaneously during the * upstroke my hand end up 1 string higher playing this:
---anchor--string-----------------------------
---------0--------0*--anchor string--------
----0--------0--------------0------------------
-----------------------/0-----------------------
------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------
.....p.....p....p....p.../p....p............
If i want to move my hand to the base site, i lift my arm during the UPSTROKE, and if i want to move my hand to the treble site i lower my arm during a DOWNSTROKE... just blending in in the movement that is already there. In both cases i can create a little more room for those manoeuvres by guiding the last upstroke a little more away from the guitar. But despite that slight gesture it feels basically like i am playing the same thump combinations during the whole piece.
TO RESUME:
learn to find the various arm position/anchor string combinatiins by exercises like this
---------------------------------------------------------------
---Anchor string-------------------------------------------
---0---0---0---0----------0-----------0--------------------
---0-----------------/0-----------0--------------------------
---0----------------------------------------------------------
---0---------------------------------------------------------
after you played that a million times you can blindfoldedly play
----------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------
-------0---------0----------0---------------------------------
--0---------0-------/--0--------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------
I remain above feeling, even when i change anchor string in-between.. all i do is lift my arm during the last upstroke or lower the arm during a downstroke.
lift during * upstroke:
----------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------
-------0---------0 *-------------------------------------------
--0---------0----------------0-------------------------------
-----------------------/0-----------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------
lower during * downstroke:
----------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------0------------------------------------
-------0---------0--/*-0----------------------------------------
--0---------0---------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------
INDEX FINGER MANAGEMENT:
As mentioned the index upstroke can often be integrated as a by-product of rotating/lifting your arm. I also stated that my thump (generally) is not lifted when it lands on a string that is next in line to be plugged. When the thump stays on string and there is no supportive upwards arm/hand movement the index obviously has to do the plugging himself (poor thing).
----------------------------0*-------0---------0*-------0--------------
----0----0---0---0-------------0--------------------0-------------------
----0-----------------/-0-----------------/0-----------------------------
----0--------------------------------------------------------------------
----0--------------------------------------------------------------------
---/0---------------------------------------------------------------------
.....p.....p....p....p.../..p...i....p....i..../..p.....i.....p......i.................
In above situation i picture myself the situation were i use arm rotating techniques to operate both index and thump. Since the * part lacks the raising of the hand the index plugs that one himself.
Sometimes i choose to replace above arm rotation for lifting/lowering the complete arm. When i restrict to arm-rotation i can use/add the weight of the hand, when in stead i raise/lower the complete arm i can use/add the weight of both hand and the arm, giving even more mass and body to the notes. If the arm is allowed to fallow the movements in both up and downwards direction you can even add some extra-power to above * part, both to the index-upstroke and to the on-string thump. All you have to do is lift your arm a little bit during the index part.....both the index and (part of the) thump are lifted but the tip of the thump remains on string.... by pushing the hand down again the fallowing thump stroke will gain extra mass as well. I don't claim i do that in above example, i just wanted to show the variety of possibilities when integrating arm-rotation and arm-lifting/lowering.
ARPEGGIO/TREMOLO
I already mentioned the walking hand position... the complete hand is relaxed including the fingers... relaxed means there are no muscles active, not the ones opening your fingers nor the ones closing your fingers. All you have to do is to bring that hand to the place of the action without moving a muscle in the process. Every single time i play the thump with the intention to play arpeggio the fingers will automatically fall in (walking hand) position for no other reason than that my hand is completely relaxed. All i have to do is to know how to pose my hand to bring that relaxed canon into position. The same applies to tremolo.
When playing tremolo and arpeggio certain arm and wrist moves can be a disturbing factor and as such are not always welcomed. Once my hand is positioned in a way the fingers can do there job, that unit generally stays right were it is, while the thump moves up and down and just stretches to reach the strings or glide from string to string in downwards position.
*****************
the next part is under construction, i plan to rethink/improve /edit it soon.
But sometimes i chose to combine arpeggio with arm moves. Do you remember how i stroked a chord?
"Position your walking hand in such a way that it brings the thump on the upper base string, next, push your arm downwards>>>> while pushing your forearm down (subtly supported by arm rotation) your hand and thump will automatically fallow, allowing your thump to stroke the chord during the process (basically a by-product of bringing your hand unit down)".
If you do this slowly, and study how your hand react on the added energy of your changing arm position you will notice that your thump doesn't slide of immediately. At first it will go with the flow by taking a different position towards the strings and/or by stretching a little bit.... if you watch close you will notice this brings your fingers already a bid closer to the treble side, with the thump still on string.
"Only when the added pressure is large enough and only when the thump is placed/used in such a way that it can easily glide of the string that hand/thump unit will fallow that arm like a leached dog fallows his master..... but like unwilling dogs the flow can be frustrated/interrupted/altered when the thump get stuck into one of the strings to much by pushing it to deep ore by making to much flesh contact to begin with".
This is exactly the situation i explore when i play an arpeggio in combination with arm/wrist moves. When (after plugging a string) the thump (intentionally) resist to leave the string it just landed on the still added energy of the moving arm will find other ways to channel. The main effect is that your string and thump will stretch like a trampoline, pushing the still relaxed finger-lineup into the direction of the treble strings. If only the arm is pushed downwards the fingers are pushed away from the thump in a "straight" line. If in stead you add pressure by rotating your forearm the fingers are pushed away from the thump as well as from the strings (fallowing the curved line of that movement). By mixing downwards and rotating arm movements you can mix downwards and/or curved finger-relocation-movements.
I already mentioned that anchored on string thump basically reacts like a kind of trampoline in that situation. It is very important to realize that (like a trampoline) the way your hand and/or fingers reacts on energy input is linked not only to amount/direction but also to speed and durance. If the muscle input is very short the hand (or individually played fingers) will fall back in there original position automatically. If the energy input is to long they will stay at there new location even after the input has gone and you have to put in need new energy in the opposite direction to bring them back to "walking hand position".
If you make sure the energy input is short enough both the hand and individual fingers will restore original position by bouncing back automatically. If for instance you play a downstroke alzapua very quickly and IMMEDIATELY cut of energy input that thump will be launched back almost as fast as it went down. If you keep muscle tension on to long it will stay down until you bring it back yourself.
A variation on that idea happens when i add extra energy to the on-string thump in above arpeggio situation. The added energy pushes away the hand and fingers a little bit and when i stop adding that extra energy my hand is supposed to fall back to string level. Although i might have to add a little persuasion to trigger this i do enjoy some kind of trampoline effect from the stored energy. I quite often use that trampoline effect to play the first index in a "P-imami" situation. At the same time the index plugs it's intended string (using the energy of the mass of the falling hand) i pre-plant my M and A finger who are ready to be played when needed. So partly using the energy of the falling hand (hardly moving a finger at all) i plug the first i (using hand-moves rather then the finger itself) and simultaneously pre-plant the fallowing m/a who optionally can also enjoy the trampoline effect.
GOLPE SKATING:
to conclude i have to mention my golpe skating. Whenever possible i place my (M or) A finger on the golpeador as a kind of counterbalance/reference point. Obviously that is not done with arpeggio and tremolo (when those fingers are needed for plugging) but as soon as i face thump/index developments i like to put a finger on golpe. I don't touch the golpe with the flesh (that would disturb the subtle arm rotations to much) i use the point of my nail... making the golpeador a big ice rink and my finger a skater. I guess the main reason is it allows me to create a sharper corner of the thump towards the strings, allowing me to play a little more "into the guitar" (which adds power).
Like you said, this is stupendous stuff, if you know how to use it (that might take some time, even years)
have fun :-).
Ps: like always this is just 1 way of doing it and various people prefer/use different systems that are equally affective. I believe above system is like an eco system...most elements depend on the other elements to be functional and if you change 1 aspect you might have to change other aspects as well. I use these elements a lot but use other lines as well.
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Date Jun. 17 2013 6:08:44
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