Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
I have a question for you all: Do you guys play flamenco guitar with the thumb 'apoyando' (striking a string with your thumb, and then resting it at the string below) always, or only in some specific parts?
ALMOST always, there are exceptions. Basically, whenever possible yes, rest it. And also really REST it, meaning you keeping it on the string and don't move it until you must.
this is probably a silly question but when using my thumb on the treble strings my little finger seems to want to rest on the soundboard of the guitar - is this a bad habit i should work on getting rid of ? ta muchly
i try to always rest my fingers either on the high E string or on the body, it may be a bad habit, but it gives stability to my hand and helps me be clearer and stronger in my playing...as long as your playing sounds good i don't think it's a problem...
is this a bad habit i should work on getting rid of ?
Probably, I would say never anchor your fingers to the sound board, but it may help to have a point of contact somewhere there, just not a permanent one!
i try to always rest my fingers either on the high E string or on the body, it may be a bad habit, but it gives stability to my hand and helps me be clearer and stronger in my playing...as long as your playing sounds good i don't think it's a problem...
Often times you do golpes (ring or ring and middle) along with your pulgar to emphasize certain notes percussively. After the golpe you can keep your fingers on the board sort of as an "anchor" but it really depends on how you are attacking the strings. This works only if you are moving just the thumb. (Watch parilla and m. Morao for example). If you are doing something that requires your wrist to move or even your arm to move, then anchoring is not possible.
Thumb 'Apoyando' -> How to do on ... (in reply to Barrozo)
Hi folks.
I see from the discussion in this thread that your advice is to always make your thumb strokes apoyando when possible.
So ... when you are doing apoyando with the thumb AND alternating with the index on the 1st string ... is it considered good to do thumb apoyando on the 2nd string? I mean ... I play thumb apoyando on the second string, then rest my thumb on the 1st string ... and then I have to release my thumb *just* before plucking the 1st string with index. At first it felt really awkward, but after a short practice it is starting to feel okay. But before I train this really hard I'm asking you guys whether this is a good thing and whether I should persist with it?
RE: Thumb 'Apoyando' -> How to do... (in reply to junheng)
Depending on the sound you want, you can do apoyando with the thumb (going down to the 1st string) and with the index (going up to the 2nd). It can feel a bit "cluttered" at first like when you play arpeggios on the 3 trebles and you repeat the G string with index coming up and thumb going down (both on the G).
Posts: 14819
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Thumb 'Apoyando' -> How to do... (in reply to junheng)
quote:
ORIGINAL: junheng
Hi folks.
I see from the discussion in this thread that your advice is to always make your thumb strokes apoyando when possible.
So ... when you are doing apoyando with the thumb AND alternating with the index on the 1st string ... is it considered good to do thumb apoyando on the 2nd string? I mean ... I play thumb apoyando on the second string, then rest my thumb on the 1st string ... and then I have to release my thumb *just* before plucking the 1st string with index. At first it felt really awkward, but after a short practice it is starting to feel okay. But before I train this really hard I'm asking you guys whether this is a good thing and whether I should persist with it?
Sorry if I'm being anally analytical!!
junheng
It's ok at certain speeds. when you get super fast it has to be free.
ALMOST always, there are exceptions. Basically, whenever possible yes, rest it. And also really REST it, meaning you keeping it on the string and don't move it until you must.
Totally agree... i even want to emphasize the REALLY REST part even more..... playing a string with a thump in general does not need (much) muscle tension to start with, but it is very important that AFTER landing on the neighboring string the (remaining) muscle tension of the thump is reduced as much as possible before executing the next note (with either thump or fingers). That's one of the reasons i study extremely slowly, to have time to make sure i relax my thump (and the other fingers) in between the actions. I believe the difference between an experienced /fast player and a lesser experienced /slower player is the amount of muscle tension they apply (in general lesser is better) and the amount of time needed to relax the muscles in between the action, the quicker you can relax them the quicker you can play (relaxed muscles also are much more responsive to nerve info).
Thank you so much Rui Martins, Ricardo and Erik van Goch. Very much appreciate your informed advice! I will proceed as you say ... and work on the relaxation issue. I think I'm already tuned into the relaxation idea as I followed the beginning of a Frekerik Hand video on technique last year (I tried out some classical) and he emphasized relaxation of the hands.
Btw ... Interestingly, he also teaches the use of your own natural 'reflexes,' like when doing fast arpegios. He's not a fan of doing these things slowly and then speeding up ... but rather starting fast using the natural 'fingers tapping the table' reflex. Interesting idea ...
RE: Thumb 'Apoyando' -> How to do... (in reply to junheng)
quote:
ORIGINAL: junheng
So ... when you are doing apoyando with the thumb AND alternating with the index on the 1st string ... is it considered good to do thumb apoyando on the 2nd string? I mean ... I play thumb apoyando on the second string, then rest my thumb on the 1st string ... and then I have to release my thumb *just* before plucking the 1st string with index. At first it felt really awkward, but after a short practice it is starting to feel okay. But before I train this really hard I'm asking you guys whether this is a good thing and whether I should persist with it?
I do it all the time. As a matter of fact i tend to operate my thump using subtle arm/hand/wrist moves rather then plugging with the thump itself. In above situation i do the same with the index... i don't feel it like plugging the string with the index but like lifting my hand for the next round (hitting the string with the index is merely incidental).
So in above situation i concentrate on lifting the "arm/wrist/hand" unit for the next round.... obviously when that unit raises so does your thump and index since they are part of your hand (even better thump and index raise simultaneously so are not likely to clinch) All you have to do is make sure the thump doesn't hit the above string(s) (unless you want it to) and that the index does (unless you don't want it to). Your index can give a little extra support if you want by additional plugging but plugging the string can also be operated by raising the hand/arm/wrist unit only with speed and relaxation as your main weapon.
The best way to practice is to start with a relaxed hand, the thump placed on a random string and the index hanging just beneath the 1th string. Now lift your hand a couple of times (using arm/wrist moves only) and watch your index passing the string WITHOUT playing it (make sure your hand and index are totally relaxed). Next do the same thing while incidently touching the 1th string with the index AS SOFTLY AS YOU CAN. Then, slowly increase the amount of contact/impact with the string until you can play it full force without interrupting the underlaying hand movement....make sure your index is totally relaxed and short nailed so it will not stuck into the string (otherwise you'll need a lot of extra force which will corrupt the underlaying mechanism up to a point where it will not function at all). Obviously this is just 1 way of doing it which may or may not fit your likings.
PS: i tend to use this system in situations were the thump has to go to a different string then the one it is resting on... if it is already resting on the "next to play string" i leave it on string and consequently have to plug the in-between trebles with the finger "only" (although i have ways to integrate hand lifting moves in those situations as well if i want). Every time i play the thump i make sure my fingers end up just beneath the strings that have too be plugged so i always have the choice between plugging them directly (with the fingers) or indirectly (by raising the hand).... or a combination of both.
RE: Thumb 'Apoyando' -> How to do... (in reply to Sr. Martins)
QUOTE: "Depending on the sound you want, you can do apoyando with the thumb (going down to the 1st string) and with the index (going up to the 2nd). It can feel a bit "cluttered" at first like when you play arpeggios on the 3 trebles and you repeat the G string with index coming up and thumb going down (both on the G). " - Rui Martins -----
Ah, Rui, that's interesting. I've just experienced something that I think is the same as what you are saying here. Ie, I'm doing a pulgar bass run (apoyando crotchets) on 6th, 5th and 4th strings, with ami arpeggio (tirando 1st-2nd-3rd string semi-quavers) between each bass note ... and when I do apoyando on the 4th string (resting on the 3rd string) I have to keep it there, but withdraw *just* before hitting the last arpeggio semi-quaver on the 3rd string. It feels weird, but I will persist.
QUOTE: ALMOST always, there are exceptions. Basically, whenever possible yes, rest it. And also really REST it, meaning you keeping it on the string and don't move it until you must." - Ricardo -----
Hi Ricardo. So ... I just started a basic falsetta (Soleares, the first one in Juan Martin's 'El Arte Flamenco') with the crotchets (pulgar downstrokes on individual strings) broken into triplets. It sounds wrong to my ears to play all three of each triplet as apoyando ... that sounds boring as there is no life in those triplets without the emphasis on the first beat of each triplet.
It sounds better if I just play the first note of each triplet apoyando and the next two of each triplet tirando ... then I feel the triplet rhythm better ... then it almost has a 'bounce' or 'swing' to it, which is surely appropriate to triplets.
Might this be one of the occasions when it is better to not to use apoyando? (His text doesn't make this point clear.)
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: Thumb 'Apoyando' -> How to do... (in reply to Erik van Goch)
Erik, you probably know Tino van der Smaan. In my one, memorable trip to Spain, I got the chance to study with him for a couple of weeks. One thing I remember clearly is him telling me to relax my thumb during pulgar passages. I told him it was relaxed, and he felt it. To me, it felt soft and relaxed, but he insisted that his was more relaxed and I should work on it. I couldn't understand how you could make much of a sound at all with a relaxed thumb!
QUOTE: ALMOST always, there are exceptions. Basically, whenever possible yes, rest it. And also really REST it, meaning you keeping it on the string and don't move it until you must." - Ricardo -----
Hi Ricardo. So ... I just started a basic falsetta (Soleares, the first one in Juan Martin's 'El Arte Flamenco') with the crotchets (pulgar downstrokes on individual strings) broken into triplets. It sounds wrong to my ears to play all three of each triplet as apoyando ... that sounds boring as there is no life in those triplets without the emphasis on the first beat of each triplet.
It sounds better if I just play the first note of each triplet apoyando and the next two of each triplet tirando ... then I feel the triplet rhythm better ... then it almost has a 'bounce' or 'swing' to it, which is surely appropriate to triplets.
Might this be one of the occasions when it is better to not to use apoyando? (His text doesn't make this point clear.)
junheng
absolutely NOT. You should do all apoyando if you want to sound flamenco. Accenting is just playing a note louder than another. I for one would not accent as you describe but do a long crescendo and emphasize accents of compas perhaps....depends on specific passage.
RE: Thumb 'Apoyando' -> How to do... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
Erik, you probably know Tino van der Smaan. In my one, memorable trip to Spain, I got the chance to study with him for a couple of weeks. One thing I remember clearly is him telling me to relax my thumb during pulgar passages. I told him it was relaxed, and he felt it. To me, it felt soft and relaxed, but he insisted that his was more relaxed and I should work on it. I couldn't understand how you could make much of a sound at all with a relaxed thumb!
Yes i know Tino van der Sman, he studied with my father from the age of 14 till his final exam and is one of my favorite players ....i'm going to visit his show in delft next week :-).
That relaxing part is the most difficult thing of all but when done well it is total dynamite.
I once played Paco Peña that beautiful Vicente falseta of Alegrias (the one at 0:32)
Paco paid no attention to the spectacular continuation but focused his attention on above pp part. "After you plugged the F# on the D string the thump must land on the neighboring G string and stays there COMPLETELY RELAXED until it strokes the chord (without being lifted in between).... so it is thump, relax, stroke". His main focus was on that last thump stroke (playing the chord). He insisted on playing it as relaxed as possible, basically with a completely dead hand. During the lesson i was not able to "produce the goods" as Paco use to say, because i simply was not able to produce the incredible relaxation he insisted on. When it was time to go he urged me not to rest before i found that holly grail...."you will be pleasantly surprised" he promised me.
So later that night i gave it my best try and after 2 hours of struggle i found my dead hand and in all honesty, pleasantly surprised doesn't even begin to describe it. It was total dynamite. i did absolutely nothing (just let my hand fall by gravity like dumping a corpse from a cliff), but this corpse caused a complete avalanche. The power, volume and sound i produced was incredible and like nothing i ever experienced before......or ever after i'm afraid, because with the exception of that one night i never ever have been able to re-find that magic in that situation again :-(
I had a similar experience with my index playing up and down stroke rasgueados once. After doing it more than 1 hour on a row (accompanying a dancer) i suddenly experienced a totally different way of generating movement/energy with half the input and twice the output. I was never able to recreate that magical moment as well. I did however have some similar moments of greatness with alzapua and various other techniques over the years and in all those cases i paired sheer endless relaxation to sheer endless energy. It really feels how i imagine an astronaut feels when experiencing lack of gravity for the first time, or a bird enjoying it's first flight.... my best moments paired seemingly endless freedom and power to the possibility to exchange energy with the strings without the need of brains and hands to translate).
Erik, I was told that Paco required the students to play ONLY p for quite some time and only let them play other things once they had that down.
There is a wonderful classical player named Philip Hii--just happened to be listening to his Chopin transcriptions just now--and he also talks a lot about getting power through relaxation. He also strongly advocates playing something for hours and hours, and that technical breakthroughs usually only happen after 3 hours of uninterrupted work on them!
I just started a basic falsetta (Soleares, the first one in Juan Martin's 'El Arte Flamenco') with the crotchets (pulgar downstrokes on individual strings) broken into triplets. It sounds wrong to my ears to play all three of each triplet as apoyando ... that sounds boring as there is no life in those triplets without the emphasis on the first beat of each triplet.
It sounds better if I just play the first note of each triplet apoyando and the next two of each triplet tirando ... then I feel the triplet rhythm better ... then it almost has a 'bounce' or 'swing' to it, which is surely appropriate to triplets.
how are you learning this, just from the book?
what does the audio/video sound like?
you need to learn from listening/watching and use the book as a guide to fingering, that way you won't be tempted to try this kind of "score interpretation"
Erik, I was told that Paco required the students to play ONLY p for quite some time and only let them play other things once they had that down.
There is a wonderful classical player named Philip Hii--just happened to be listening to his Chopin transcriptions just now--and he also talks a lot about getting power through relaxation. He also strongly advocates playing something for hours and hours, and that technical breakthroughs usually only happen after 3 hours of uninterrupted work on them!
I was part of the first group of students that entered Paco's University school of Flamenco guitar. At the time Paco was convinced that once you were able to use the thump "the correct way" the rest would be easy. So for weeks/mounts his lessons were restricted to playing "open strings" with pulgar, focussing on the right use and relaxation of the thump/hand/wrist/arm unit, quite often with Paco ending up holding/pushing/operating your hand, like you were a marionette :-).
Paco was precent only once a mount..... the weekly "in between lessons" were given by Ricardo Mendeville and my father Hans van Goch, an outstanding didactic who had his own idea's about ideal development and soon challenged the "thump only" policy. He introduced a parallel project focussing on improving the extremely bad left hand habits of the average student, drilling all kinds of grips, scales, bindings and the matching right hand techniques (mainly i-m string-walking and arpeggios). And he was spot on because acquiring the (intended) thump control turned out to take mounts or even years and so did mastering the other techniques. But as far as the flamenco techniques are concerned the first focus is indeed getting a proper and relaxed pulgar (single notes, various string combinations, stroked chords)..... gradually in between index upstrokes are integrated later fallowed by other techniques like rasgueado, arpeggio, tremolo, alzapua, picado.
Personally i hardly ever studied more then 1 hour on a row and hardly ever with only 1 theme on the program. But i did study full focus (which is way more difficult then you think) and after 1 hour of power-study like that i really needed 8 hours of sleep to restore/benefit from it. I had excellent and constructive results with executing a couple of "full focus 1 hour sessions" a day, but i must admit that twice i had a much more instant breakthrough that were indeed the result of repeating a small thing for hours and hours on a row, so it's worth a try (as long as you don't hurt your hands in the process). I believe the most important ingredients are focus, ambition and total devotion, loving getting results more then life itself. My holly grail is "the smaller the subject of your focus, the bigger the result" and i guess this probably works with both "small portioned daily exercises" as well with "marathon sessions"... wonder what happens if i combine the two :-).
Erik, great to hear your insights! I think I am going to try to work in, maybe a weekly "marathon" session in search of those elusive breakthroughs. I could use a few!
I think I am going to try to work in, maybe a weekly "marathon" session in search of those elusive breakthroughs. I could use a few!
Don't forget the most important ingredients.....focus, structure and sensible goals. Only once or twice in your life a problem will solve itself by endlessly repeating a mistake, hoping the problem will solve itself......in most cases you end up rehearsing making mistakes. If you want to solve a problem, don't simply repeat your mistakes (hoping for a miracle) but tackle the problem by hacking the solution... once you found it, start drilling that solution.... 1 hour of working like that is more productive then 100 hours of mindless "studying". So, my other holly grail happens to be "only repeat things that are worthy to be repeated"..... structural mistakes don't belong in that category, drilling solutions is.
There is 1 other secret ingredient which makes all the difference.... you must be 100% involved, both physical, psychological and most of all spiritual. When i studied to please my teacher or the clock i had zero results, when i studied to please myself i could fly in 40 hours (thanks to a self made "get the best out of yourself" system that didn't start with playing opens strings but ended with playing open strings...thinking about lifting a finger comes close).
ps, found this quote of Ricardo after i posted this one:
you need to learn from listening/watching and use the book as a guide to fingering, that way you won't be tempted to try this kind of "score interpretation"
Hi Mark. Yes, point taken I think the bottom line is simply that my apoyando was too crap, so sounded really bad, and I was looking for 'explanations.' Anyway, I'm taking Ricardo's and others' advice on this thread and things have improved a lot now, so I'm really pleased (and grateful for the help). junheng
RE: Thumb 'Apoyando' -> How to do... (in reply to Erik van Goch)
quote:
I do it all the time. As a matter of fact i tend to operate my thump using subtle arm/hand/wrist moves rather then plugging with the thump itself. In above situation i do the same with the index... i don't feel it like plugging the string with the index but like lifting my hand for the next round (hitting the string with the index is merely incidental).
So in above situation i concentrate on lifting the "arm/wrist/hand" unit for the next round.... obviously when that unit raises so does your thump and index since they are part of your hand (even better thump and index raise simultaneously so are not likely to clinch) All you have to do is make sure the thump doesn't hit the above string(s) (unless you want it to) and that the index does (unless you don't want it to). Your index can give a little extra support if you want by additional plugging but plugging the string can also be operated by raising the hand/arm/wrist unit only with speed and relaxation as your main weapon.
Hi Erik. Yesterday I took to heart the advice on this thread about relaxing the thumb and practiced for 3 hours, working mostly on the two falsettas I've mentioned: the triplet falsetta (p down apoyando + i up tirando) and the other falsetta (p down apoyando + ima argeggio up tirando). At the end I got it and discovered exactly what you said above, ie that simply relaxing the right hand and focussing on moving the whole *unit* up and down resolves (naturally) the occasional conflict between p and i around the middle strings. It's also fun to play! This is stupendous stuff!
Don't forget the most important ingredients.....focus, structure and sensible goals. Only once or twice in your life a problem will solve itself by endlessly repeating a mistake, hoping the problem will solve itself......in most cases you end up rehearsing making mistakes. If you want to solve a problem, don't simply repeat your mistakes (hoping for a miracle) but tackle the problem by hacking the solution... once you found it, start drilling that solution.... 1 hour of working like that is more productive then 100 hours of mindless "studying". So, my other holly grail happens to be "only repeat things that are worthy to be repeated"..... structural mistakes don't belong in that category, drilling solutions is.
Never a truer word has been spoken! I would like to get this on a plaque and put it up on my wall! junheng
I would like to get this on a plaque and put it up on my wall!
I actually considered to make them myself for both me and my students :-).
Don't forget to include my other holy grail: "the smaller the object of your focus, the bigger the result".
Only after i ended up studying/understanding/appreciating every cell, muscle, nerve, bone and bone conection involved (by studying parts of parts of moves extremely slow and focused) i reached maximal levels in body control, both in movement and in energy transposal. The same applies to studying/understanding/appreciating string development and tonal development. At my best moments i was somehow able to mentally slow down string vibration, discovering you can only add new energy to an already trembling string at very specific moments, just like pushing someone in a swing is restricted to a very specific moment in time/movement.
Printable Version
New Messages
No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages
Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages
Locked w/o New Messages
Post New Thread