Question about action on my new CG171SF

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Zofog

Posts: 4
Joined: Oct. 17 2008

Question about action on my new CG171SF

Hello, new forum member and new Flamenco student here.

I just received a new Yamaha CG171SF on Tuesday for my birthday (online purchase). The action seemed a little high to me so I did some measurements and compared them to details in a post I found on this forum.

6th string @ 12th Fret = 4.5mm
6th string @ soundboard at the bridge = 10mm

I have two questions:

1. Are these measurements outside the bounds of what would be considered "normal" for (a) this make/model of guitar and (b) a Flamenco guitar in general?

2. Would replacing the factory strings have any impact on string height (lower tension strings???).

I know several members here either own or have played this model and in fact I purchased it based on the many recommendations in this forum. It sounds great (to me) but did I get a factory dud? I have several days to return it if needed. I know I can adjust the action by at the bridge myself but with 2 kids under 3 my time is limited

.

Thanks!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 17 2008 12:58:37

ChiyoDad

Posts: 151
Joined: Jun. 30 2007
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Question about action on my new ... (in reply to Zofog)

The soundboard measurement seems right for the CG171SF but the 12th fret measurement seems 1mm too high.

Are you measuring (a) from the top of the fret to the bottom of the string or (b) from the fretboard surface to the bottom of the string? The correct procedure is "a".

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 17 2008 13:22:17

Zofog

Posts: 4
Joined: Oct. 17 2008

RE: Question about action on my new ... (in reply to ChiyoDad)

Top of the fret to bottom of string. I just remeasured it to make sure and I would say it is closer to 4mm than 4.5mm.

It "feels" really high to me but it has been several years since I owned my previous classical guitar and I don't recall the action being this high. I say it "feels" high because it it obviously higher than on my other guitars (strat, tele) but I'm trying not to make a subjective comparison and hoping to get some expert opinion based on the measurements I provided. Especially based on the fact that this guitar is advertised as having "The lower action that contemporary players prefer".

Thanks again!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 17 2008 13:37:40

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Question about action on my new ... (in reply to Zofog)

If possible, lower the saddle 2,5mm and you´ll get a very nice setup. If you cant lower 2,5mm, send the guitar back and ask for a decent one.

Its a typical factory thing.... Setup... whats that?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 18 2008 0:31:21

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Question about action on my new ... (in reply to Zofog)

A typical set up for a flamenco guitar is not more than 3 mm at the 12th fret 6th string and a little lower on the treble side. The height at the bridge saddle should be about 8-9 mm on the bass side.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 18 2008 5:03:56

ChiyoDad

Posts: 151
Joined: Jun. 30 2007
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Question about action on my new ... (in reply to Zofog)

To lower the CG171SF further, you would need to sand down the bridge as well as the saddle. The CG171SF is more of a classical guitar with lower action and a golpeador.

The least expensive guitar that I've seen which has a proper flamenco setup and body specs is from Francisco Navarro Garcia's workshop. Those cost $850.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 18 2008 6:39:41

krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: Question about action on my new ... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

Its a typical factory thing.... Setup... whats that?

Why don't they take a little more trouble?
Often these guitars are made in developing coubntries with cheap labour, so I find it surprising they don't use the same cheap labour to do a proper setup.

The whole thing about setup is that it takes time to get it just right, its very labour intensive, so why not use your cheap labour to do it?

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Kevin Richards

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 18 2008 8:11:25

ngiorgio

Posts: 168
Joined: Nov. 1 2005
From: Florida, USA

RE: Question about action on my new ... (in reply to Zofog)

I owned a Yamaha 171SF. I was able to get the action at the 12th fret to 2.5mm and still had a decent break angle. However, even with that adjustment, the height of the strings over the top was still 10mm, which IMHO is way to high for flamenco. It seems that Yamaha just doesn't get it as far as set up goes on that particular guitar. It is also very heavy for a flamenco. Then again, I suppose that you can not expect much at that $350.00 price point.

I also agree that the Navarro (Mexico) flamencos are possibly the best buys out there in the under $1000.00 range. They are sometimes available at very good prices on Ebay. There are three different model Navarro flamencos currently for sale, the Estudio, Concert and Special Grand Concert "Reyes" model. These are new guitars, listed by Navarros U.S. distributor.

I have no personal agenda in these guitars, just tying to pass on some tips. I do own a Navarro Concert model flamenco.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 18 2008 9:17:45

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Question about action on my new ... (in reply to ngiorgio)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ngiorgio

I owned a Yamaha 171SF. I was able to get the action at the 12th fret to 2.5mm and still had a decent break angle. However, even with that adjustment, the height of the strings over the top was still 10mm, which IMHO is way to high for flamenco. It seems that Yamaha just doesn't get it as far as set up goes on that particular guitar. It is also very heavy for a flamenco. Then again, I suppose that you can not expect much at that $350.00 price point.

I also agree that the Navarro (Mexico) flamencos are possibly the best buys out there in the under $1000.00 range. They are sometimes available at very good prices on Ebay. There are three different model Navarro flamencos currently for sale, the Estudio, Concert and Special Grand Concert "Reyes" model. These are new guitars, listed by Navarros U.S. distributor.

I have no personal agenda in these guitars, just tying to pass on some tips. I do own a Navarro Concert model flamenco.

I would also like to add that the Reyes model flamenco is being made by Poncho's son who won the guitar competition in his town; I believe for three model guitars this year. I'm told he is concentrating on the Reyes fan brace style and is having good success with it.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 18 2008 13:00:14

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Question about action on my new ... (in reply to Zofog)

I will repeat myself in order to stay on the topic and not turn it into yet another thread about the Reyes plan.

If you cant adjust the guitar so that the strings will be some 3mm above the 12th fret, bass side, and some 7 - 9mm at the bridge, Send it back and ask for a flamenco guitar and not a laminated wood box with a neck and strings on.

I totally agree with the posts here. Why not use labour on one of the most important parts of a flamenco guitar. If they cant get the neck angle right during production, they shouldn´t sell the thing as a flamenco guitar.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2008 0:59:45

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Question about action on my new ... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

<snip>
I totally agree with the posts here. Why not use labour on one of the most important parts of a flamenco guitar. If they cant get the neck angle right during production, they shouldn´t sell the thing as a flamenco guitar.

Anders,

There are numbers of reasons why the cheap guitars are not set up to be an exact measurement.

1. Wood moves from its new construction.
2. Top design is usually a detriment to precise action.
3. Top tuning is nearly always going to be off and this will cause certain adverse string buzzing/vibrations.
4. Generally, higher string action masks these problems at the onset of a cheaper new guitar.

5. I personally believe that many cheaper guitars don’t have the right top flex/thickness to maintain stability of the strings vibrations. It's a very exacting technique to get the proper top and fan brace mass to come together.

A general rule is to set the action higher, just a little, to allow the top to come to its own perimeters/equilibrium with age. When the top ages then the action is set a little lower, but with cheaper guitars this rule is magnified much more than with a higher priced guitar that comes from a custom shop.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2008 7:01:12

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Question about action on my new ... (in reply to Zofog)

quote:

5. I personally believe that many cheaper guitars don’t have the right top flex/thickness to maintain stability of the strings vibrations. It's a very exacting technique to get the proper top and fan brace mass to come together.

This is most probably the most important factor in making a really good instrument. I have tried good factory guitars, but the percentage is very low.

In general I find cheapo guitars are just made fast with no or very little attention to detail and close to nothing when it comes to sound and setup. They just copy a plan, and here we go. Wood can have very different sound qualities, so when guitars are built like that, they end up having very different sound qualities as well.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2008 8:16:00

Zofog

Posts: 4
Joined: Oct. 17 2008

RE: Question about action on my new ... (in reply to Zofog)

Thanks for the info folks. I really appreciate it.

So, aside from the obvious rat-hole of throwing my new guitar away and getting a "real" Flamenco guitar. Let's just say that right now, that's not going to happen...

What I'm hearing is that I should shave some material off the saddle in an attempt to lower the action to around 3mm @ the 12th fret. Again, I have some questions...

1. The saddle already sits pretty low in the bridge. I don't have the guitar in front of me right now but from memory I would estimate that it rises around 3mm from the bridge. If I shave 1mm off of this will there still be enough of a protrusion to exert the proper tension on the strings? There's probably an actual technical term for this but I don't know what it would be.

2. If I'm going to do this, shaving material off of a plastic saddle makes no sense to me. So I would like to replace it with a different material, most likely Tusq or Bone. The only place I know to order this stuff from in the U.S. is StewMac. If there is somewhere better or if someone here can provide one , please let me know.

StewMac has the following Tusq Saddles. Currently the 171SF has a saddle with a compensated G string but I can only find the #4755 with compensated B, G & D strings. Will that matter??

Again guys, many thanks for the input.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2008 9:08:12

ngiorgio

Posts: 168
Joined: Nov. 1 2005
From: Florida, USA

RE: Question about action on my new ... (in reply to Zofog)

If there is 4mm of saddle showing, you should be able to comfortably take it down 2 mm. Break angle of the strings over the saddle is the issue here. That shouldn't be much of a problem with Yamahas, as they have a pretty high saddle slot. If there is only have 2mm or so showing, you won't be able to lower it enough to make a difference.

If you take 2mm off the saddle, you should get 1mm lower at the 12th fret. Whatever you take off the saddle will usually net half at the 12th. Buy a bone saddle and keep the original. I made two bone saddles for my Yamaha. One was compensated and the other wasn't. Did not notice much difference in the G string with the un-compensated saddle, probably due to the amount which I lowered it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2008 9:51:11

ngiorgio

Posts: 168
Joined: Nov. 1 2005
From: Florida, USA

RE: Question about action on my new ... (in reply to Zofog)

Here is a tutorial on making a new saddle. It shows a steel string saddle being fitted, but it is just about the same for a nylon string.

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/Guitar/Setup/MakeNewSaddle/newsaddle01.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2008 10:37:10

Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: Question about action on my new ... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

I would also like to add that the Reyes model flamenco is being made by Poncho's son who won the guitar competition in his town; I believe for three model guitars this year. I'm told he is concentrating on the Reyes fan brace style and is having good success with it.

A Navarro "Reyes" peghead with a French Polished top went for $1575 USD including shipping on eBay a few days ago. Seems like a great price considering what you've said here. Too bad you haven't had any experience with this particular model--I'm interested in your opinion about it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2008 11:39:43

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Question about action on my new ... (in reply to Zofog)

quote:

Too bad you haven't had any experience with this particular model--I'm interested in your opinion about it.

Then my advice would be to start a new thread.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 21 2008 0:31:57

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Question about action on my new ... (in reply to Zofog)

quote:

1. The saddle already sits pretty low in the bridge. I don't have the guitar in front of me right now but from memory I would estimate that it rises around 3mm from the bridge. If I shave 1mm off of this will there still be enough of a protrusion to exert the proper tension on the strings? There's probably an actual technical term for this but I don't know what it would be.

The tecnical term is that if you shave 1mm off the saddle you´ll lower the setup at the 12th fret around 1/2mm
From what you have said, you´ll need to lower the saddle around 2,5mm

I totally understand that you wont buy another and more expensive guitar, but consider sending this one back and ask for another Yamaha with a better setup. Flamenco guitars should not be sold with a 4,5mm setup.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 21 2008 0:35:24

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Question about action on my new ... (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pgh_flamenco

quote:

I would also like to add that the Reyes model flamenco is being made by Poncho's son who won the guitar competition in his town; I believe for three model guitars this year. I'm told he is concentrating on the Reyes fan brace style and is having good success with it.

A Navarro "Reyes" peghead with a French Polished top went for $1575 USD including shipping on eBay a few days ago. Seems like a great price considering what you've said here. Too bad you haven't had any experience with this particular model--I'm interested in your opinion about it.

The last Reyes style I played of Poncho's was not totally a Reyes copy but a very nice guitar. I now hear that his son has taken over the Reyes style and is building it as close to the original, on the inside, as possible. I haven't seen one of the new styles yet but I recently heard from my friend in Houston who said it's a very good flamenco guitar. And just to satisfy Anders, I understand that Ponchos guitars have a very good set up for the playing action.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 21 2008 4:39:20

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Question about action on my new ... (in reply to Zofog)

quote:

And just to satisfy Anders, I understand that Ponchos guitars have a very good set up for the playing action.

Oh thanks, that must be because of the reyes plan.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 21 2008 11:52:41

henrym3483

Posts: 1584
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: Question about action on my new ... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

The last Reyes style I played of Poncho's was not totally a Reyes copy but a very nice guitar. I now hear that his son has taken over the Reyes style and is building it as close to the original, on the inside, as possible. I haven't seen one of the new styles yet but I recently heard from my friend in Houston who said it's a very good flamenco guitar. And just to satisfy Anders, I understand that Ponchos guitars have a very good set up for the playing action.

mr blackshear the topic in question here is not the reyes plan but how to adjust or address an issue with a yamaha CG171SF. please try to keep on topic.

i own a cg171sf, i was happy with the original sound but after some months and comparisons with other flamenco guitars, i changed the plastic bridge bone for really bone and sanded it down, it was very much trial and error to get the right sound. it now has a brighter punch and sound to it.

however as regards playabilty, the guitar i purchased from Anders is a joy to play, i no longer feel like im "fighting" with learning the guitar due to poor setup or poorly constructed instrument.

a guitar handbuilt by a luthier with time and care and attention to detail will stand to your future development as guitarist, but if finacial means restrict this do the best with whats available. i would advise a try before you buy in either a shop in spain or the united states.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 21 2008 12:06:49

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Question about action on my new ... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

quote:

And just to satisfy Anders, I understand that Ponchos guitars have a very good set up for the playing action.

Oh thanks, that must be because of the reyes plan.

Well.............actually not, since I drew the Reyes plan perfectly from a higher action than necessary for the flamenco guitar. For some reason, he must have put a pre-designed higher saddle in anticipation of age making the finger board pull up a little, so the saddle could later on be lowered.

Who knows why he did it, and I caught all kinds of complaints for drawing it that way. A repairman actually tapered the board down to lower the action.

Since that little issue, I've made my own action with it. So Reyes guitars are not the end all to every player. But where I like them is that they are easy to build. And I use this comparison with a Barbero style that is not that easy to build, at least not as easy to get that propio sello for a great guitar.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 21 2008 12:13:59

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Question about action on my new ... (in reply to henrym3483)

quote:

ORIGINAL: henrym3483

quote:

The last Reyes style I played of Poncho's was not totally a Reyes copy but a very nice guitar. I now hear that his son has taken over the Reyes style and is building it as close to the original, on the inside, as possible. I haven't seen one of the new styles yet but I recently heard from my friend in Houston who said it's a very good flamenco guitar. And just to satisfy Anders, I understand that Ponchos guitars have a very good set up for the playing action.

mr blackshear the topic in question here is not the reyes plan but how to adjust or address an issue with a yamaha CG171SF. please try to keep on topic.

i own a cg171sf, i was happy with the original sound but after some months and comparisons with other flamenco guitars, i changed the plastic bridge bone for really bone and sanded it down, it was very much trial and error to get the right sound. it now has a brighter punch and sound to it.

however as regards playabilty, the guitar i purchased from Anders is a joy to play, i no longer feel like im "fighting" with learning the guitar due to poor setup or poorly constructed instrument.

a guitar handbuilt by a luthier with time and care and attention to detail will stand to your future development as guitarist, but if finacial means restrict this do the best with whats available. i would advise a try before you buy in either a shop in spain or the united states.

Let's be fair here and admit that you are pushing Anders guitars. I don't mind it a bit but please don't insult my intelligence by scolding me for off topic conversation, which to me, is fine if it relates in some way to the general topic. Fair is fair.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 21 2008 12:33:23

n85ae

Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006

RE: Question about action on my new ... (in reply to Zofog)

Tom -

In all fairness, Henry didn't even post in this thread, until then and he only
mentioned his Anders guitar, so it's not like he's pushing Anders guitars.

I had a Yamaha, with a good setup, and replaced the saddle with a bone saddle
I made for a blank from Guitar Center it was a nice guitar. Then I got my two
Pedro De Miguel's from Tom Nunez and the wife made me get rid of a guitar
so the Yamaha got sold.

The nice thing about Yamaha's is for $350 US they are pretty consistent, and
nice playing guitars. I'm sure they won't compete with a Reyes, or a Blackshear,
or Anders, but for the price they're a great deal.

Jeff

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 21 2008 12:47:51

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Question about action on my new ... (in reply to n85ae)

quote:

ORIGINAL: n85ae

Tom -

In all fairness, Henry didn't even post in this thread, until then and he only
mentioned his Anders guitar, so it's not like he's pushing Anders guitars.

I had a Yamaha, with a good setup, and replaced the saddle with a bone saddle
I made for a blank from Guitar Center it was a nice guitar. Then I got my two
Pedro De Miguel's from Tom Nunez and the wife made me get rid of a guitar
so the Yamaha got sold.

The nice thing about Yamaha's is for $350 US they are pretty consistent, and
nice playing guitars. I'm sure they won't compete with a Reyes, or a Blackshear,
or Anders, but for the price they're a great deal.

Jeff

Perhaps we should agree that nearly all chat lists wind up with another topic concerning the original threads. Don't ask me why it happens other than it might be that the topic has exhausted itself and posters carry on into other topics without changing the thread.

I felt that my answer to another poster's question was warranted and I didn't start the Reyes issue. It could have been left there but other posters decided to add their comments.

I'm not offended by their posts, and I believe Anders and I were having a little Joke about it, so perhaps we should all relax a little.

Some of my peers say I waste time addressing these issues but I say that everyone needs a little interaction on occasion with people who think differently about things. All in all, variety is the spice of life.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 21 2008 13:05:04

henrym3483

Posts: 1584
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: Question about action on my new ... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

Let's be fair here and admit that you are pushing Anders guitars. I don't mind it a bit but please don't insult my intelligence by scolding me for off topic conversation, which to me, is fine if it relates in some way to the general topic. Fair is fair.

i used the fact i own one of mr eliassons guitar to illustrate a point that a handmade guitar is proably one of the best things to improve as a player, and that if one can afford it go for a hand crafted guitar. hand crafted by a professional luthier = a better guitar ergo which = better playabilty.

if i was a rich man, i would buy alot of professional guitars if i had about €10,000 lying around id buy a glen cannin guitar, a devoe, a conde or if i had the spondooly and if the man would make it for me i would ask Mr Reyes himself.
but AFAIK as i know the man is no longer takign orders.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 21 2008 13:18:21

Zofog

Posts: 4
Joined: Oct. 17 2008

RE: Question about action on my new ... (in reply to Zofog)

As the OP, I appreciate the help I have received from this thread.

I did get a measure on the saddle height on my CG171SF last night and as delivered it protrudes out of the bridge only 2.5mm. This would make it impossible to shave 2mm off in an attempt to reduce the 12th fret string height from 4mm to 3mm.

So, I will send it back and ask for another. Hopefully the next one will have a better setup out of the box.

As for the thread hijack...I'll grab some popcorn and try to follow along. Maybe I'll learn something new

~ Gary

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 21 2008 13:30:49

henrym3483

Posts: 1584
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: Question about action on my new ... (in reply to Zofog)

quote:

As for the thread hijack...I'll grab some popcorn and try to follow along. Maybe I'll learn something new

~ Gary

Gary you want some melted butter or Salt on that

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 21 2008 13:33:25

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Question about action on my new ... (in reply to Zofog)

Zofog

I think you are doing the right thing and I´m glad that we the members of foro flamenco have been able to help you. Also thank you for keeping the red line in this thread even though it got hijacked. I hope they will send you one with a good setup. and please dont eat ro many popcorns. They leave a lot of grease on the strings.

To Tom Blackshear:
You´re right, it was a kind of joke I wrote, but only a kind.

The problem with your attitude and I most sincerely find it annoying, is that you hijack every time you get the chance and that you dont care about what others say. Henry is actually a forum moderator, but his little elegant hint you dont care about. On other forums this means that the thread would have been closed.

You´ve been writing pages up and down about your Reyes plan. I think that every one here has understood your point. There´s no need for any more hijacking. It gets so empty when all discussions end with this subject and about some friend of yours that has tried out some guitar...... Get real.

Anders

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 21 2008 23:50:29

HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: Question about action on my new ... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

anders, maybe you two could hang out and be best buddies.

think about it! you could go for a stroll in the park, bring your various representative guitars with you, and as an act of friendship, trade them!

that way anders would get a blackshear reyes, and never stop gooing about it

and tom would get an anders peghead blanca, and be over the moon about it!

LOL

you're both too fun!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 22 2008 3:52:55