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Flamenco guitar recommendations under $2k US?
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Jgtr07
Posts: 15
Joined: Oct. 7 2008
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
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 Flamenco guitar recommendations unde...
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Greetings - this is my first post here, so please go easy on me! 
I am interested in acquiring a flamenco guitar under about $2k US, and I am looking at the following models: Loriente "Carmen" SP/CY (Finish: Lacquer); Cordoba Solista Flamenco; Paco de Lucia Siroco Blanca
Does anyone have any direct experience comparing or playing any of these specific guitars? If you have played or owned any of these specific guitars, what is your opinion on any or all of them?
I’m interested in differences in quality of sound, volume, playability, intonation, rasgueado vs. picado (ease & responsiveness), build quality, aesthetics, durability, etc.
Someone on another forum recommended a Manuel Rodriguez FF Flamenco model as well - does anyone have an opinion on those? Do you recommend anything better in the same price range?
Any information based on direct personal experience with these specific guitars would be greatly appreciated. Thank you very much in advance for any helpful advice you can offer.
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Date Oct. 7 2008 15:18:18
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TANúñez
Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS
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RE: Flamenco guitar recommendations ... (in reply to ddk)
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quote:
Dear Jgtr07,
You are asking Tom to recommend guitars sold by another shop than his own. Obviously, he will steer you in the right direction regardless of any self-interest, but EVERYONE here on the Foro has loads of respect for Tom. I play a Burguet 2F and it's a good student guitar. That said, I hope to up-grade to the next level soon and will certainly seek Tom's advice when that day comes.
Tom is one of the many highly reliable sources available to us here on FF and I would listen to his advice!
Buena suerte.
Best regards,
Dean
Wow Dean, thank you very much for such kind words. Jgtr07, it's ok. As a buyer you want to check out ALL your options. There are a lot of great buys out there. Sometimes new isn't always the best one. There are great used guitars out there as well.
I've played a couple Montalvo guitars and liked them. For a while, I used to think Navarro made them because they were very similar but I later heard that one of the Huipes was making them. I really don't know who makes them but I don't really care either as I think they are good and whoever makes them is doing a good job. Jason McGuire at one time was playing them. Don't know if he still does. I believe he played a Hauser model and from recordings the thing sounded great. I'm sure a lot of that was due to his playing but the sound that was coming from the box was very nice.
If possible, play as many guitars as you can. Your ears and hands will tell you which is the one for you. If that is not an option due to there not being any dealers in your area, you'll be forced to buy online. Nothing wrong with that. Just be sure whoever you buy from has a good return policy and you should be ok.
_____________________________
Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars
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Date Oct. 20 2008 12:54:26
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Mark2
Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: Flamenco guitar recommendations ... (in reply to Guest)
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Your right, there was no guarantee that those guitars could have been purchased for the prices I posted. But what is interesting is that there were no takers even at the opening bid prices I posted. Which means a motivated seller may have been willing to take the prices that were listed as opening bids, or possibly even less.
Even if you ended up paying 4800 instead of the opening bid price of 4k for a devoe negra, that would seem to be a good buy. Guitars can be a bit like boats in that some people put out a lot of money for them, then decide they aren't getting much use from them.
There is the collector mentality vs. the practical one. Do you want an instrument in perfect condition, or one that simply sounds amazing, or both? Do you have to have a signed conde with the half moon, or would you settle for any great playing & sounding guitar that's priced right?
The OP was considering different guitars in the 2k range to I presume to play. He wasn't fixated on brand. My point was that he had other options than the ones he was considering, which included used condes.
As to the 30k reyes, they may be asking that, but as to if they sell it for that, who knows? And even if someone with too much desire or money pays that, that doesn't change the reality that one can still get a great deal on a guitar if they are patient, flexible and willing to do a bit of leg work.
If I was wanting to buy that 3.5 k conde, I'd be inclined to call the seller up, since I live close by and know the person he bought it from, then stuff 35 hundreds in my pocket and go see the guy. A wad of greenbacks has the potential to create flexibility.
quote:
ORIGINAL: nealf
Mark2:
- those attachments you posted are rather misleading, for example the Devoe Negra was selling for $4800 and not $4000 as you state. The Conde was 3500 (reserve not met) starting price.
- Yes, Dimitri sold a Conde (and many other guitars) cheap many years ago, also Reyes blancas were selling for around 5-8K at that time. The KEY phrase is "many years ago". Thats not today .... (today GSI is selling a 93 Reyes Blanca for $30,000!!).
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Date Oct. 26 2008 9:28:29
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Jgtr07
Posts: 15
Joined: Oct. 7 2008
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
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RE: Flamenco guitar recommendations ... (in reply to Jgtr07)
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Thanks for the input, guys. This thread is about flamenco guitar recommendations under $2k US...for a ready to go, playable instrument in the Real World.
I wanted suggestions on the specific models I listed above, based on real world experience with those particluar guitars. Sure, if you have another suggestion for a comparable or better guitar at the same price level, I am definitely open to it.
I need to find a REAL guitar under $2k which I can buy in the present time - the guitars I listed were all available to me, so that's why I mentioned them. If you have any more relevant helpful suggestions, I'm open to hearing them.
I really appreciate Tom's valuable and honest advice above about the Navarro and the Sanchiz Lopez, as well as his very kind feedback on the Montalvo. As he advised, I am checking out all my options, and will probably buy from a dealer online with a good return policy once I decide...
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Date Oct. 26 2008 14:06:26
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gj Michelob
Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco
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RE: Flamenco guitar recommendations ... (in reply to Jgtr07)
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If I may add to this, I have two student model Francisco Navarro, Cedar and Cypress with pegs (I keep one in NY and one in SF as my practice guitars). Tom Nunez was patient enough to accommodate a dash of vanity and have Francisco mount rose-rosettes I had purchased at Luthier Mercantile International. Also, I requested ebony pegs, those with the mother of pearl inlay. Fantastic guitars.
It all had started with a gift I made to my niece who is picking up guitar after me. After a luthier in SF adjusted strings alignment, lowered the action, replaced nut and saddle with bone, and touched up the pegs friction, I could not believe the purity and authenticity of the sound.
I have an AF/25 R Conde Negra. I love it, really love it, but I really alternate between the two now and must say that some music sounds so wonderfully authentic on the Navarro. It has that inherent “duende” that I was looking for.
The guitar goes for about $1,000 and I must say I wouldn’t resell mine for $4,000. Very pleased. I am sure that higher priced ones (still modestly so, however) must have added virtues, but this I would swear by (with the Luthier’s adjustment proviso).
By the way, hello Tom, it is nice to see you post here.
_____________________________
gj Michelob
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Date Nov. 9 2008 15:11:41
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a_arnold
Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006
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RE: Flamenco guitar recommendations ... (in reply to Jgtr07)
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Welcome to the foro.
You're asking people for opinions on a very subjective issue. Before spending any money, the wise person will evaluate the source of advice before accepting it unquestioningly.
Having said that, I agree with Tom on the Francisco Navarro option. Another equally good (if not better) Paracho option is Salvador Castillo. Both have won the Mexican national luthiery competition, Castillo more recently. PDL (who owns a house in Mexico) went to the competition a few years ago and singled out Castillo as the best maker in Mexico. I own two Castillos, two by Manuel de la Chica (old-school Granada - he made Segovia's first guitar; see Brune's article "Guitars with Guts" in last Nov. issue of "Vintage Guitar") and have owned a top-of-the-line Ramirez and several others, including factory models that were the equivalent of Burguet, Rodriguez, etc. . I have played Condes and compared them directly (side-by-side) with Castillo's blanca and, although Condes are excellent guitars, I agree with Ricardo -- you are unlikely to find a bargain in a Conde. I think anyone will agree that, to some degree, you pay extra for the label when you buy a Conde. Personally, I heard no quality difference (loudness/projection and clarity) between Conde and Castillo; the "sweetness" or lyrical quality of sound is too subjective for me to offer a meaningful opinion. I think the Conde is an excellent but overpriced guitar. But that is an opinion, so you'll want to evaluate its source.
I worked in the musical instrument restoration lab at the Smithsonian for 4 years and have played flamenco for almost 50 years, but I'm not a luthier (although I have built a harpsichord and restored a few guitars). I lived and studied (flamenco, not luthiery) with Rafael Morales in Granada for a while -- directly across the street from Bellido's shop on Cuesta Gomerez. Take that resume for what it's worth in assessing the value of my opinion. Here it is:
The top 5 makers in Paracho are now the equal of most top makers in Spain, but the Paracho makers are vastly undervalued because Paracho was for many many years known for producing no more than "good" quality studio guitars, and they still suffer from that past reputation (and from their own depressed economy). THe city of Paracho also produces some abysmal guitars -- you have to be selective when you choose a Paracho luthier. When I was working at the Smithsonian (35 years ago), my boss had the job of traveling the world evaluating luthiers during the summer. His opinion of the best Paracho makers was "they are a real bargain, but not yet the equal of the best in Spain". That has changed now, which presents present-day buyers with an opportunity. BUT that means you have to trust your own judgment and your own ear more than the label in the guitar. Many people don't have the confidence to do that in a world gone "Conde Crazy". But there are some great unrecognized and undervalued luthiers out there in Paracho and elsewhere. Some right here on the foro.
There was a time in the 60's and 70's when the Ramirez dynasty was in the same position that Conde now enjoys. The Ramirez' descent to student quality began when they decided to capitalize on the family name. Is a parallel decline happening with Conde now? Many already say the most prized Condes are made by luthiers of the last generation. Is that an early symptom of decay? Maybe.
But I won't make such a claim based on anything other than the evidence of my own ears. And my ears, like everyone else's, are subjective.
Bottom line: if you want to rely on the label, you'll pay a price. If you want a bargain, you HAVE to learn to trust your ear. Try a lot of guitars and learn to hear the difference. It's hard (for me) to compare guitars unless I have them side by side. The setting, the state of the strings, the humidity, and the tiredness of your hands are contributing factors. Keep in mind that new strings can do a lot to make a second-tier guitar sound good, but a great guitar will sound great even with old strings -- so don't be misled there. Also keep in mind that as your hands get stronger, you will find you are able to handle higher action. Sabicas' legendary clean, loud sound came partly from a surprisingly high action. Which means that the ideal guitar for you today may not be the ideal one in ten years.
Probably not the advice you wanted to hear, but there it is. Sorry to be so long- winded. I've had a lot of caffeine this morning.
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Date Mar. 10 2009 6:43:48
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