Englemann Spruce

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Englemann Spruce

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krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

Englemann Spruce

Does anyone here use Englemann for their flamencos?

Its often described as being very similar to Alpine/German spruce. I'm making a steel strung with it at the moment and I'm thinking maybe this would be suitable for flamencos?

Its obviously not traditional, being from thr other side of the Atlantic, but its much cheaper, even in Europe.

Can anyone tell me their experiemce of it?

Sorry if this topic has been aired before but I'm so totally confused by the forum at present and I can't find any old posts that help

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 23 2008 3:31:48

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Englemann Spruce (in reply to krichards)

quote:

ORIGINAL: krichards

Does anyone here use Englemann for their flamencos?

Its often described as being very similar to Alpine/German spruce. I'm making a steel strung with it at the moment and I'm thinking maybe this would be suitable for flamencos?

Its obviously not traditional, being from thr other side of the Atlantic, but its much cheaper, even in Europe.

Can anyone tell me their experiemce of it?

Sorry if this topic has been aired before but I'm so totally confused by the forum at present and I can't find any old posts that help

I use it almost exclusively on my flamenco guitars. I think its a good musical tone wood and not quite as grainy as European spruce. And as far as stiffness goes, my tops are semi stiff but not overly so. And the age factor seems to work faster on this variety of spruce to open up the sound.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 23 2008 6:26:48

DonS

Posts: 232
Joined: Mar. 1 2007
From: Florida and San Francisco Cali

RE: Englemann Spruce (in reply to krichards)

The first flamenco with Engelmann spruce I've played was a Juan Huipe negra and it sounded great. I also played a friends Blackshear blanca and was pretty impressed as well. My brother bought a Blackshear Reyes blanca also with Engelmann spruce top and it is an amazing guitar. I'm hoping to get a new Blackshear blanca soon myself - very impressed with Tom's guitars. Honestly, I couldn't tell you the difference between the Euro or Engelmann in terms of sound. I think the hands working on the guitar matter more than wood itself. I think Engelmann and Euro spruce are equally as good tone-woods.

-Don

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 23 2008 9:44:10

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Englemann Spruce (in reply to krichards)

Yes, we discussed this not so long ago.

I only work Euro Spruce because I´m in Europe and thus the price difference is not so big and my clients prefer euro spruce as well. If I lived and worked on the other side of the Dam I would use Engelmann. I have made some 10 - 12 flamencos with Engelmann and they all sounded great. It is different than euro, but its just a matter of getting used to it. I worked it a tad thicker than euro and it was great. It seems to open up a little faster than euro

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2008 4:57:06

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Englemann Spruce (in reply to DonS)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DonS

The first flamenco with Engelmann spruce I've played was a Juan Huipe negra and it sounded great. I also played a friends Blackshear blanca and was pretty impressed as well. My brother bought a Blackshear Reyes blanca also with Engelmann spruce top and it is an amazing guitar. I'm hoping to get a new Blackshear blanca soon myself - very impressed with Tom's guitars. Honestly, I couldn't tell you the difference between the Euro or Engelmann in terms of sound. I think the hands working on the guitar matter more than wood itself. I think Engelmann and Euro spruce are equally as good tone-woods.

-Don

Thanks for the plug, Don :-) I've used both types and I like Engelmann a little better since I believe it to be musically superior to most Euro tone wood. But every type is really regulated by the builder as it is well known that the Spanish masters knew how to work the Euro tone wood to be very acceptable.

However, it didn't stop there and we are finding many other types that work well with-in the traditional approach to make great guitars. Ramirez used Western Red Cedar for his guitars, and this was definitely stepping over the line from a traditional approach.

But the reason I don't used cedar for flamenco tops is that it is normally a softer wood and can't be graduated thin for more volume, etc. Miguel Rodriguez used a lot of cedar for his tops but he ran into some problems with his thin graduation techniques due to his five fan brace designs.

Although I have taken a graduation technique from Rafael's (Miguel's son) earlier tops and applied it to the more modern Rodriguez guitars, I still find that spruce works better for a thin evenly thicknessed top. Note: as shown by the Blackshear/Rodriguez guitar plan.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2008 5:04:44

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Englemann Spruce (in reply to krichards)

I dont get your point. Why do you want Cedar to be as thin as Spruce? A sounds very bad when you work it so thin.

I know many other professional luthiers and none would agree with you. Cedar is softer, yes, but its a LOT lightter as well, so leaving cedar some 0,4 - 0,5mm thicker doesnt make it heavyer and it might even be stiffer. I personally like cedar for some guitars. Classicals, hybrids and Flamenco Negras I like very much with cedar. I dont prefer it over spruce but I find it to be equally good.
Another thing is that Cedar has another tone or voice and this you might like or not. FX, I prefer spruce over cedar when it comes to Flamenco Blancas.

I´ve made, I dont know, some 15 - 20 guitars with Engelmann Spruce. Its a great spruce, but I find it to be a little bit softer than Euro Spruce... But I also find it to be a little bit lighter, so I just left it a little bit thicker... Just a little bit... And I liked it.

If my (and many others) feelings about Engelmann are correct, Then it means according to your thinking that Euro is superior to Engelmann?? In this case I would have to disagree.... I think they are both very good, but you have to work them differently.

Back to the initial question, experience with Engelmann. I personal find that its an easyer tonewood than Euro. This because the trees are a lot bigger, so when you order the wood you get a lot of sets which are virtually identical. I ordered 10 sets from Canada and they were so even that they could be mixed without problems. In general, Engelmann is also more even over the grain than Euro. Its easy to find tops which have the same grain width on the whole board. All This makes building easyer because you dont have to compensate for differency in the wood.

Why dont I work Engelmann anymore. First, I´m in Europe, so I get Euro tops cheaper than Americans, and it is a very good tonewood and a lot of clients will only accept euro spruce. second. I didn´t find a good supplier. There were way to many problems with Run-out and this I dont like at all. I´ve had less problemswith run-out on euro tops.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2008 23:06:05

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Englemann Spruce (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

I know many other professional luthiers and none would agree with you. Cedar is softer, yes, but its a LOT lightter as well, so leaving cedar some 0,4 - 0,5mm thicker doesnt make it heavyer and it might even be stiffer. I personally like cedar for some guitars. Classicals, hybrids and Flamenco Negras I like very much with cedar. I dont prefer it over spruce but I find it to be equally good.
Another thing is that Cedar has another tone or voice and this you might like or not. FX, I prefer spruce over cedar when it comes to Flamenco Blancas.

Why dont I work Engelmann anymore. First, I´m in Europe, so I get Euro tops cheaper than Americans, and it is a very good tonewood and a lot of clients will only accept euro spruce. second. I didn´t find a good supplier. There were way to many problems with Run-out and this I dont like at all. I´ve had less problemswith run-out on euro tops.

Anders makes well reasoned points as usual. Run out in Engelmann is so rampant that the only way I've found to get straight tops is to go out into the woods and select the right tree myself. I don't use it anymore cause I'm too old and fat to pack the billets back to the truck. It's back breaking work. All the Euro spruce I have has run out as well but it's not as severe.

Since I live in the middle of Red Cedar country I've had the opportunity to try cedar from many different environments. All the cedar I've seen for sale by luthier suppliers is the really pretty stuff with fine grain and uniform red/brown color. I've found the cedar that grows along the coast with streaky wider grain and pale color is the best for flamencos. It's way more stiff than the darker colored varieties. Last summer I cut almost 100 tops out of very old billets of cedar. I sold all the really pretty pieces and kept only 17 for myself. They are all light in color, a little streaked and wonderfully stiff. I'm probably biased because I have access to the finest cedar but all the guitars I've built for myself over the years had cedar tops.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 3 2008 5:46:38

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Englemann Spruce (in reply to krichards)

I dont think you are specially biased John. We all have our preferences. I to prefer the pale type cedar I find they are stiffer. I use a fine grained piece though. All in all, Cedar is a great piece of wood, and I´m sure that if I started making more Blancas with cedar, I would find a way to make it sound the way I like.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 3 2008 8:20:40

krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: Englemann Spruce (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Another problem with cedar for blancas would be the colour? A darker top with pale back/sides would look odd and maybe not very popular with customers?

Egelmann/Euro spruce/sycamore/cypress are all pale and work well together without staining I think.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2008 1:01:47

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Englemann Spruce (in reply to krichards)

I think cedar topped blancas look great. Especially if its one of these pale and honey colored cedar tops.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2008 4:10:39

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Englemann Spruce (in reply to krichards)

quote:

ORIGINAL: krichards

Another problem with cedar for blancas would be the colour? A darker top with pale back/sides would look odd and maybe not very popular with customers?

Egelmann/Euro spruce/sycamore/cypress are all pale and work well together without staining I think.

Even though Ramirez found that cedar was a good tone wood, I feel that spruce is the better of the two to make flamenco guitars with. There are several advantages that I see, along with your idea for good color match, and that is strength, brightness, and sales ability according to tradition.

If you make a flamenco negra, then that is another story, as you can alter the top wood to better match the sides and back. And the sales potential will be good for flamenco or perhaps classical players, so this idea would provide a little wider market.

I've done this, and where a flamenco player doesn't buy it, there is potential for a classical player. But then the better tuning would be to use classical tuning machines rather than wooden pegs.

I never use wooden pegs on a guitar that I build on spec. They are hard to sell. The only time I build with pegs is for a special order. The major point here is to build a great guitar and it will sell. I've never had a complaint about not using pegs.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2008 5:13:42

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: Englemann Spruce (in reply to jshelton5040)

First off, the best cedar comes from Canada, not Oregon.

Also, if you can't get the wood, then choose a tree from your truck and hire a young whippersnapper to get it for you so you can work on guitars.

What's up now with the pegs? I thought were talking spruce tops.

You builders are all a funny lot! I guess it comes from snifing to much varnish...

I'm in a funny mood, don't mind me...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2008 20:52:22

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Englemann Spruce (in reply to cathulu)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cathulu

First off, the best cedar comes from Canada, not Oregon.

Also, if you can't get the wood, then choose a tree from your truck and hire a young whippersnapper to get it for you so you can work on guitars.

What's up now with the pegs? I thought were talking spruce tops.

You builders are all a funny lot! I guess it comes from snifing to much varnish...

I'm in a funny mood, don't mind me...

Just trying to help the poster realize better sales potential with ideas that I've worked with for the past 50 years. I thought he was also concerned about sale-ability since he felt the down side to using cedar on a guitar (flamenco blanca) was limited in its sale appeal.

Pegs just happened to be related to that sales potential, and I've found that most guitars have a higher percentage of sales with classical tuning machines. And I use shellac/pure grain alcohol (French polish) exclusively on my guitars since most other forms of finish are toxic.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2008 4:08:45

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Englemann Spruce (in reply to cathulu)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cathulu

Also, if you can't get the wood, then choose a tree from your truck and hire a young whippersnapper to get it for you so you can work on guitars.

There's a little more to it than picking a tree from the truck. First you have to drive 500 miles to where the best Engelmann grows, then you pay for a permit to cut on government land and after that you spend day after day exploring along the fire lanes looking for a straight tree that happens to be damaged or leaning. Once a tree is found you make sure it's one that can be safely cut then you go and ask permission from the forest ranger to cut it. Three or four days of hard labor later you hopefully have a truck load of waxed Engelmann billets and are ready for the 500 mile drive back home. Four or five years after that you can saw the billets and see how much of it is usuable.

I'm 66 and have 100 or so cured tops on hand and a bunch of billets in the loft that are ready to be sawn. I don't need any more top wood. Furthermore I'm convinced that Euro spruce makes better guitars and that's a little too far to travel to cut my own.

Hey, if you haven't experienced a steady diet of lacquer fumes you should give it a try. Who knows you might grow to like it

.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2008 6:12:24

Flmnco4mz

Posts: 17
Joined: Oct. 14 2008

RE: Englemann Spruce (in reply to krichards)

i was once told that "sitka" was an awesome wood for flamenco guitars.......because it has a tendency to be more "RASPY" than the other spruces..............

As to Engelmann.......... it's definitely a fine wood for flamenco guitars.....

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2008 9:14:45

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Englemann Spruce (in reply to krichards)

Just my few cents:

Sitka will be and awesome tonewood of its used by an awesome builder. Its a matter of knowing what you are working with. I´ve made 2 flamencos with sitka, so I cant call mysef an expert, but I liked the sound.

Back to sales potential: I´m sure that of the different spruce varieties, euro is the one with far the best sales potential.

John, I´m sealing some guitars with nitro these days. The fumes are heavy but I will sniff some more because I like the result.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 8 2008 0:09:56

edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Englemann Spruce (in reply to krichards)

quote:

I´m sealing some guitars with nitro these days. The fumes are heavy but I will sniff some more because I like the result.

You like the result on the guitar or in your head?

Your FPishing mine aren't you 'though?

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El aficionado solitario
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 8 2008 2:00:52

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Englemann Spruce (in reply to krichards)

I like the result on the guitar and not in the head.

I´m French Polishing your guitar, just giving it a layer of porefiller

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 8 2008 5:20:38

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: Englemann Spruce (in reply to jshelton5040)

Thanks, that is more work than I thought! I only say what I do 'cause I'd like to one day buy a nice luthier built guitar, and I want you guys to lower your prices!

And to do that, Sie mussen die leistung verbessern!

Hmmm, nitro fumes, sounds explosively entertaining!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2008 15:54:45

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Englemann Spruce (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

I dont get your point. Why do you want Cedar to be as thin as Spruce? A sounds very bad when you work it so thin.

It really depends on how the top is designed according to the wood a builder wants to use. Most top woods that are thinner produce more volume but then we have some irregularities that can come up due to the thin tops.

It takes great care when working with thin tops of any kind of wood, and it is the builder whose knowledge of building with thin tops, that will get a greater volume and potential projection with it.

But thin tops produce potential over tones and frequencies that can over-ride a recording, and although they may work well for dancers, they give out certain noise that can hurt a good recording. I've often thought about the downside potential and although the noise facter was dominate, there had to be a way to quiet it down.

I now build with thin tops but have trained the noise factor out as much as possible. This way the notes don't have a surrounding noisey frequency but a more stable sound that projects well. It cuts into the ringing sensation a little but doesn't disturb the sustain.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2008 5:16:54

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Englemann Spruce (in reply to krichards)

I still dont get you.

Do you want to work Cadar as thin as spruce? In this case you´re the only one I know or have heard of. Everyone else works it some 0,4 - 0,5mm thicker which seems to be logical because of Cedars lower weight.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2008 8:29:47

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Englemann Spruce (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

I still dont get you.

Do you want to work Cadar as thin as spruce? In this case you´re the only one I know or have heard of. Everyone else works it some 0,4 - 0,5mm thicker which seems to be logical because of Cedars lower weight.

Anders,

I've always been a student of the Spanish masters; that was where I started 50 years ago, and it is the same for me today. I don't claim to know everything but what I've experienced in the building process was generally brought on by my study of the Spanish designs.

I've built many old masters designs including Santos and Barbero, and I find that spruce works best for flamenco guitar designs when it comes to thin tops but there are other designs that tolerate the cedar top at about 2 to 2.1 mm thickness without severely compromising the structural capabilities.

I once build a Santos style classical top with cedar at 1.7 to 1.8 and it held for 8 years under heavy concerts with a great player but the top was coming to a point that concerned him. This Particular guitar was built for the sound and not for long durability.

But Miguel Rodriguez of Cordoba has built many guitars with cedar at around 2 mm in the middle and thin as a business card in some other areas of the top, and they are still holding. However, these tops are not what I would call stable for a collector's item.

I'm sure the guitar maker's dilemma has always been how to make the top thin enough for volume and not compromise the durability or sound. They are making all kinds of designs that would hypothetically support their search.

But with the traditional top thickness concerning cedar, I have built classical guitars at 2 mm and have had no problems with them. Is this for every builder? I don’t think so, as each builder has his own way of doing things.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2008 11:13:34

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Englemann Spruce (in reply to krichards)

In general, working with traditional bracing systems (Torres variations) I find that cedar looses sound quality, projection and especially the basses tend to be uncontrolable when working below 2,3 - 2,4mm and the trebles flimsy.
Also I dont see the need for building thinner. In the end it has a lot to do with the relationship between weight and cross grain stiffness and cedar is a LOT lighter than spruce.
A problem using old instruments as a reference is that a lot of them have been repolished and this means that a lot of them have been sanded in order to remove marks and dings. Maybe guitars are kept in better conditions in the US. Here there are many dead guitars with famous names on the label. Dead, mainly because of being poorly maintained and because of someone refinishing in a brutal way.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2008 23:07:23

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Englemann Spruce (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

In general, working with traditional bracing systems (Torres variations) I find that cedar looses sound quality, projection and especially the basses tend to be uncontrolable when working below 2,3 - 2,4mm and the trebles flimsy.
Also I dont see the need for building thinner. In the end it has a lot to do with the relationship between weight and cross grain stiffness and cedar is a LOT lighter than spruce.
A problem using old instruments as a reference is that a lot of them have been repolished and this means that a lot of them have been sanded in order to remove marks and dings. Maybe guitars are kept in better conditions in the US. Here there are many dead guitars with famous names on the label. Dead, mainly because of being poorly maintained and because of someone refinishing in a brutal way.

Yes, I agree about the situation of not keeping older guitars in good repair and I've seen some old Santos guitars that had been sanded and refinished.

Also, I examined a 1932 Santos with a 2.5 mm spruce top that was in pristine condition and it obviously had not been touched by a repairman. It was a great guitar.

But Miguel Rodriguez built with thin cedar tops and his guitars now sell for $30,000 on the average to players and collectors. It's with this in mind that I learned how to make thin cedar tops that have sonority of sound.

And of course we have the Greg Smallman's of the world that build paper thin cedar tops, with lattice style bracing.

However, I'm inclined to agree, that on the average, it is more prudent to build a little thicker with cedar.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2008 5:07:46

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
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RE: Englemann Spruce (in reply to krichards)

So maybe we could look at it this way:

We both prefer spruce for blancas, so maybe its because I build to thick and you to thin??

Another thing.
Any experience with Sitka Spruce anyone? I mean, its ok priced and the quality is very high. Hardly any run out, very straight narrow grain, and somtimes a very bautifull silking and Bear clawing

I´ve built 2 flamencos with Sitka. (thin 2 - 2,1mm) Its some years ago. I liked them both a lot. Very percussive. I´m considering buying more.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2008 8:00:48

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Englemann Spruce (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

Any experience with Sitka Spruce anyone? I mean, its ok priced and the quality is very high. Hardly any run out, very straight narrow grain, and somtimes a very bautifull silking and Bear clawing

I´ve built 2 flamencos with Sitka. (thin 2 - 2,1mm) Its some years ago. I liked them both a lot. Very percussive. I´m considering buying more.

I've tried it in the past and was very disappointed in the guitars. Very nasal and thin sounding but you're right that the quality of the wood that's available is excellent. One of the classics we built with sitka was left unplayed in the Philippines for about 15 years and finally returned to us. The topwood had developed a really pretty color, almost amber and the voice had softened and become much more round. We sold the guitar for the orginal buyer within a week of it's return and the person who bought it is still delighted with it. So maybe if you can afford to wait 10 or 15 years before putting the guitar up for sale it might be the perfect topwood.

Gilbert used it extensively for classics and his guitars sell in the $15-20k or more range so somebody obviously likes the sound.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2008 14:58:39

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Englemann Spruce (in reply to krichards)

What you say is what many people argue. Thin sounding.

It was not my experience. Both were very woody sounding. I kept one of them. Its my swing around guitar and I really like it. The color of the sitka is a beautifull amber almost as dark as a light colored cedar. It took a couple of years to really open up. Its 5 years old now and sound like a 20 year old guitar.

It has extremely narrow grain and I worked it very thin an average of 2mm. It was back then when I was calibrating with a plane, so its a bit uneven. But lets say 1,9 - 2,1 meassured with a Hacklinger guide.
The local professionals here really like it. My teacher played it yesterday and said it sounded like an old Conde from the 60th and 70th. Funny enough, not so good players dont like it so much. Its very dry and you have to work the sound out of it. (Thats very flamenco)

The guitar is not in its best shape. Its clearly built to light and the French Polish did strange things. A white cloud devellopped under the transparent tapplate, so I took it off and replaced it with a white one. Later the french polish cracked. You know just like Nitro can do. Just thinner. It also fell on the floor when I was finishing it (Spanish stone floors hurt when you fall on them) It develloped a very small crack which I repaired.

The fact is that I decided not to sell it. Its the guitar I play the most and I like it more and more, so I look at it every day, thinking... That Sitka spruce guitar is really nice. So I will order some more Sitka

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2008 22:54:08

Anders Eliasson

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RE: Englemann Spruce (in reply to krichards)

Another thing John.

You are the one liking Cedar for blancas. How thick do you work it compared to Spruce?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2008 22:55:22

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Englemann Spruce (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

Another thing John.

You are the one liking Cedar for blancas. How thick do you work it compared to Spruce?

With cedar I start with the top at 3.2mm but do some tapering and thinning so it probably ends up about 2.5mm on the edges to 3.0mm under the bridge. It varies slightly from one guitar to another depending on the stiffness of the top. Spruce starts at 2.6mm and gets worked down in a similar way only with a little less taper usually. Sounds like about the same dimensions you are using.

A few years ago I was at a state park at the coast known for having huge Sitka trees. Several had been blown down across the path by a wind storm and the park service had sawn them to allow people to pass. The diameter of the ends was much greater than my height. Those trees must have been hundreds of years old. The wood was left to rot.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 19 2008 6:25:50

krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: Englemann Spruce (in reply to jshelton5040)

This thread has wandered around somewhat but I think the concensus from the experienced builders runs like this??

1 There's not much to choose between Euro Spruce and Engelmann and you can build in a very similar way with them: thin 2.0 to 2.2 mm?

2 Cedar makes a good flamenco but because it is less dense you need to use it thicker, generally, to maintain enough stiffness? maybe 2.5 mm or more?

3 Sitka isn't used much (but I'm not sure why. After all, its a standard choice for steel strung guitars). Maybe if Sitka was a native European species it would have been used more?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 19 2008 7:36:39