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kitarist

Posts: 1442
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Zambra (in reply to Kate

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kate
quote:

ORIGINAL: Guest
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kate
However there are Moorish writings that prove without doubt that the Gitanos were already in Andalucia.


Oh Yes??? What are they?


Cartas Marruecas: documentos de Marruecos en archivos espanoles ( Siglos XVl - XVll) Not that I've actually read it of course.



I came across references in recent journal papers to pinning the first documented description of flamenco (which is not the same as first presence of gitanos in Andalucia, of course, but you will see why I mention this different milestone) to a book by colonel J. Cadalso (1741-1782) published in 1793 called "Cartas marruecas" [del colonel D. Joseph Cadahalso]. The novel/book was written 1773-1774.

Wherein, in Cartas VII, the last two paragraphs read as follows, describing a flamenco juerga (fiesta?), in Cadiz:

" -¿Quién es ese tío Gregorio? -preguntéle, atónito de que aprobase tal insolencia; y me respondió: -El tío Gregorio es un carnicero de la ciudad que suele acompañarnos a comer, fumar y jugar. ¡Poquito le queremos todos los caballeros de por acá! Con ocasión de irse mi primo Jaime María a Granada y yo a Sevilla, hubimos de sacar la espada sobre quién lo había de llevar; y en esto hubiera parado la cosa, si en aquel tiempo mismo no le hubiera prendido la justicia por no sé qué puñaladillas que dio en la feria y otras frioleras semejantes, que todo ello se compuso al mes de cárcel.

"Dándome cuenta del carácter del tío Gregorio y otros iguales personajes, llegamos al cortijo. Presentome a los que allí se hallaban, que eran amigos o parientes suyos de la misma edad, clase y crianza; se habían juntado para ir a una cacería; y esperando la hora competente, pasaban la noche jugando, cenando, cantando y hablando; para todo lo cual se hallaban muy bien provistos, porque habían concurrido algunas gitanas con sus venerables padres, dignos esposos y preciosos hijos. Allí tuve la dicha de conocer al señor tío Gregorio. A su voz ronca y hueca, patilla larga, vientre redondo, modales ásperas, frecuentes juramentos y trato familiar, se distinguía entre todos. Su oficio era hacer cigarros, dándolos ya encendidos de su boca a los caballeritos, atizar los velones, decir el nombre y mérito de cada gitana, llevar el compás con las palmas de las manos cuando bailaba alguno de sus más apasionados protectores, y brindar a sus saludes con medios cántaros de vino. Conociendo que venía cansado, me hicieron cenar luego y me llevaron a un cuarto algo apartado para dormir, destinando un mozo del cortijo que me llamase y condujese al camino. Contarte los dichos y hechos de aquella academia fuera imposible, o tal vez indecente; sólo diré que el humo de los cigarros, los gritos y palmadas del tío Gregorio, la bulla de todas las voces, el ruido de las castañuelas, lo destemplado de la guitarra, el chillido de las gitanas sobre cuál había de tocar el polo para que lo bailase Preciosilla, el ladrido de los perros y el desentono de los que cantaban, no me dejaron pegar los ojos en toda la noche. Llegada la hora de marchar, monté a caballo, diciéndome a mí mismo en voz baja: ¡Así se cría una juventud que pudiera ser tan útil si fuera la educación igual al talento! Y un hombre serio, que al parecer estaba de mal humor con aquel género de vida, oyéndome, me dijo con lágrimas en los ojos: -Sí, señor."


The "Cartas Marruecas: Documentos de Marruecos en archivos espanoles (siglos XVI–XVII)", on the other hand, is an academic book from 2002 with 103 newly discovered state documents dating from 1582 to 1644. A reviewer of that publication writes:

"The monumental series of the Sources inedites de l’Histoire du Maroc (S.I.H.M.) edited by H. de Castries (and others), Paris 1905–61, was the result of a great trawl through the major archives of most Western European countries in search of materials for Moroccan history, so that one is at first surprised that Dr. Garcıa-Arenal and her colleagues have found so much fresh material in Spain (103 documents) to bring to our attention in this volume. We ought not to be, for they are in the middle of a close and careful fresh search through the Spanish archives in pursuit of Arabic documentation (treaties, official and diplomatic correspondence etc.). The effort is clearly proving to be fully justified.


"As Garcıa-Arenal points out in her introduction, the volumes of the S.I.H.M. relating to Spain cut off at 1578. Accordingly in the volume under review she picks up at about that date, and continues up to 1644."

So while the short title of the 2002 book is likely a nod to the 1793 "Cartas Marruecas" by Cadalso, they are very different.

In summary, Kate was likely correct that the 2002 Cartas Marruecas monograph does mention the presence of gitanos in Andalucia in the state documents (can't find the text to access) - though I don't know if it would be the first such instance - the previously collected documents from up to 1578 (S.I.H.M.) might have mentions as well.

And the first description of a flamenco juerga/fiesta dates from 1773-74 and appears in the 1793 Cartas Marruecas book by Cadalso.

Hopefully this was interesting to some I didn't find anything while searching to see if it has been discussed here before; the closest was this thread.



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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 31 2020 21:42:54
 
kitarist

Posts: 1442
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

First documented description of flamenco (in reply to kitarist

See post just above. Sorry, just surprised no one was interested in this and am currently trying to see if that was because of the timing (Dec 31 post), the thread title (Re: Zambra), or because this is old news?

(However, I could not find any more direct references to a discussion on the foro; this Zambra thread was closest)

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 4 2021 20:51:17
 
machopicasso

 

Posts: 899
Joined: Nov. 27 2010
 

RE: First documented description of ... (in reply to kitarist

I missed this and am definitely interested. Thanks for re-posting, so to speak.

But my reading knowledge of Spanish isn't (yet) great. Anybody want to translate the quoted passages? (I know there's Google translate, but I'd like to read something more reliable).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 5 2021 5:12:48
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13292
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: First documented description of ... (in reply to kitarist

Interesting stuff. The thread was old, but personally I am more excited by actual music evidence in written or recorded form, than verbal description of it. For example, if Mozart had an encounter with flamenco it might be interesting to read his impressions, but without being there or seeing video it doesn’t mean a lot. Mozart supposedly had photo memory and total recall, so if he transcribed flamenco that would be valuable to me. But an anecdotal description is no better than a newspaper review of a flamenco show today.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 5 2021 5:52:36
 
tf10music

 

Posts: 104
Joined: Jan. 3 2017
 

RE: First documented description of ... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

verbal description of it

There's also the question of how much the name 'flamenco' mattered/matters, and whether or not calling the music flamenco at the end of the 18th century suddenly heralded an immediate shift in the music's form or content.

Like, there are satirical depictions of Gitanos singing and dancing all over the place in 17th century Spanish theatre -- they pop up more than once in Calderón de la Barca's entremeses, and even more notably in Jerónimo Cáncer y Velasco's "El entremés de los gitanos." Here's a short quotation from a relevant academic article:

"Jerónimo de Cáncer y Velasco’s El entremés de los gitanos, published in 1675 but certainly predating Cáncer’s death in 1655, was likely written to accompany the autos of Corpus in the same manner as some of the pieces studied above. In this work of teatro breve, a number of curious clients make their way into an urban gypsies’ den, asking for items that only they can provide, reinforcing the stereotype that as a group they form a necessary evil that guarantees entertainment at every turn. A blind man comes looking for news of hanged men, ‘‘por que en mis coplas a tiempo / cante su vida’’ (219)."

Later on in the same article (by Ted Bergman), we get this:

"In Francisco Antonio de Monteser’s Baile del maulero, published in 1670 (two years after his death), a witty conversation between the ‘‘gracioso’’ and ‘‘graciosa’’ is interrupted by the arrival of a troup of gypsies. Off stage one of them sings ‘‘Gitanillo del alma / no te alborotes, / que sino son galeras / serán azotes,’’ indicating their links to crime and punishment (qtd. in Buendía 856)."

Now, all of this could be based on something vaguely related to flamenco, but there's not much proof either way, because, as Ricardo says, there's no record that allows us insight into any sort of embodied performance.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 5 2021 6:24:46
 
kitarist

Posts: 1442
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: First documented description of ... (in reply to machopicasso

quote:

But my reading knowledge of Spanish isn't (yet) great.


I guess the key sentence is this:

"[..] sólo diré que el humo de los cigarros, los gritos y palmadas del tío Gregorio, la bulla de todas las voces, el ruido de las castañuelas, lo destemplado de la guitarra, el chillido de las gitanas sobre cuál había de tocar el polo para que lo bailase Preciosilla, el ladrido de los perros y el desentono de los que cantaban, [...]."

Which I gather, without knowing much Spanish, is something like:

"[..] I will only say that the smoke from the cigars, the shouts and claps of Uncle Gregorio, the noise of all the voices, the noise of the castanets, the harshness of the guitar, the shriek of the gypsies over which the guitarist played the polo so that Preciosilla can dance it, the barking of the dogs and the out-of-tune singing [didn't let me close my eyes all night]."

Hopefully someone can finesse it.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 5 2021 15:49:08
 
edguerin

Posts: 1559
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Zambra (in reply to kitarist

Whereas the observations in the Cartas appear to us to be the description of a flamenco juerga, the first actual use of the term flamenco to describe a venue seems to have been a bit later (1847):
http://www.flamencopolis.com/archives/3464

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Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2021 9:23:20
 
kitarist

Posts: 1442
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Zambra (in reply to edguerin

quote:

ORIGINAL: edguerin

Whereas the observations in the Cartas appear to us to be the description of a flamenco juerga, the first actual use of the term flamenco to describe a venue seems to have been a bit later (1847):
http://www.flamencopolis.com/archives/3464


Yes, for sure. Cartas only describes, but does not label, what appears to be flamenco. Thank you for the link to the 1847 newspaper article.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2021 16:35:28
 
machopicasso

 

Posts: 899
Joined: Nov. 27 2010
 

RE: First documented description of ... (in reply to kitarist

quote:

"[..] I will only say that the smoke from the cigars, the shouts and claps of Uncle Gregorio, the noise of all the voices, the noise of the castanets, the harshness of the guitar, the shriek of the gypsies over which the guitarist played the polo so that Preciosilla can dance it, the barking of the dogs and the out-of-tune singing [didn't let me close my eyes all night]."

Hopefully someone can finesse it.


Thanks! That works.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2021 5:15:07
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