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OLEEEE Ricardo :-) !! great stuff man !! as always inspirational
Ron i see where you are coming from and while i agree i also disagree .
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This is what challenging yourself is all about!
Not by being all coy and arty and playing your own "safe" compositions that "fit" your hand and technique.
Makes the Men stand out from the boys IMO!
I too am thrilled to see Ricardo do as well as he did, hes a great guitarist i get that this is a challenge and its not about playing your style but about the way it was played, i get that, i respect that.
But i dont think you should look down on those that do try for theyr own compositions, that i dont get, u can respect Ricardo just as much and show apreciation for what he does without having to make those who are working at composing and developing theyr own style appear like its just a way to hide bad technique and not wordy your of respect, that i dont get.
All the music we listen to its because someone was beeing all coy and arty and playing his own "safe" compositions that "fit" his hand and technique.
Even this very track was once a unusual experiment that someone didnt get or like. Paco himself would not be the Paco you know if he didnt experiment and compose, because you not allowed to record other peoples music.
I mean there was noone like Vicente Amigo before he was Vicente
I agree that it has to be educated experimenting and you cant do it straight away, but i dont think you should look down on it.
I am sure even Ricardo composes because 1 its fun and 2 he wants a saying in the kind of music HE wants to play.
So what i am saying , I respect Ricardo, look up to him, we all do, but lets not use it as an excuse to put down things that we dont peticulary appreciate or understand.
Ricardo likes well placed originality I am sure as much as anyone else, how well are we placing it ? not sure but you have to start somewhere.
I know its just your opinion, but you are admin here, you have a certain reposibility to be open or atlist not knock everything you dont get. because as you know flamenco guitar is very very very versatile with many many modern styles that you might not like that dont necesarely deserve to be knocked. I know its unfair, but because you are admin, theres heavier resposibilitie than there is on the average member to be open minded.
i think vicentes stuff is harder than pacos even though i can´t play as fast and clean as paco my hands are use to his way of playing, and thats why vicentes falsetas feels like a ufo to my hands. ...i never completed a vicente falseta. i just cant play it without getting cramps
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This is hard stuff! Don't give up... And don't make it a race. Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.
well just to make my point, i am glad you compose the way u do, i love what you play when you play your compositions more than anything.
I get that its good for technique to learn other peoples music, and fine do that ..but when i listen to you do your music, i know i really am listening to You, a million well played Vicente's solos cant compare to that. And everytime you do it it just gets better and better.
I would rather hear a half good melody (not that your melodies are only half good lol ) that i know it came from you than a perfect falseta that you copied.
now getting good at composing good flamenco music its the hard part but everyone starts somewhere.
And again this is no a disrespect to what Ricardo is doing, i think its excellent, inspirational, if he wants to learn that, by all means, but music is ultimatly about music its not about the technique.
playing someone elses music, its good, brilliant, good for techniqe, everyone should practice for if that is what you like to do, but composing and playing your own music, it really is art, it wont allways be good, infact probably suck when you start, but if its what you wanna do, never to be disrespected imo.
there are a tousands of perfect technique guitarists we dont get to apreciate because they havent composed, but i am sure that the respect of 200 guitarists and respect on a guitar forum is keeping them fed and warm at night
there are guitarists with way less technique than Ricardo that have composed brilliant music and albums i listen to alot.
and there are Guitarists with better technique than Ricardo whos music i dont get.
Very impressive and enjoyable Ricardo. Did you just begin learning this piece for this challenge? Are you learning it by ear or with tabs.
Just learned yesterday. Just kidding. I already admitted early in the thread that I already knew 3 falsetas from this. Ironically, it is those same 3 falsetas that still mess me up even after I have just learned all the rest. Mostly I used the tab/notation from the "offical" Fantasia book. But of course I have changed a lot of fingers based on vids I have seen, or my own personal preferences. As always tab is a guide, and your ear must ultimately tell you what is right or wrong.
Hey Florian and Ron, hope you guys don't turn this into an "interpreter vs creator" arguement. You both have good points. Ron's, (along my line of thinking anyway), is that you have to have a base if you are going to play flamenco, much less compose. You can't be in a jazz band if you can't play the blues. So learning from the maestros is important, you can't just "do your own thing" and call yourself both creative AND authentic.
On the other hand Florian is right that just because you can play this piece, doesn't mean you are guaranteed on the right path for being a true flamenco artist. One must take what you learn from the tradition and find your place in it. Learning techniques and falsetas are a tool. It just matters how you use those tools in the end. For me, being creative is not SO hard. Any of us can compose something right now. But will it be good without inspiration of some sort, or some understanding of purpose and form? For me personally, no way. And that creative inspiration does not always come along. So in the mean time what to do?
I too am in this way of your thinking Ricardo, i think it is important to practice other peoples music to develop a strong base, but the way "composing "was described in general was a litlle simplistic.
quote:
Not by being all coy and arty and playing your own "safe" compositions that "fit" your hand and technique.
even if not good by your standards, that is what is generaly called composing
and its probably a good idea to play compositions that match your technique. (personaly, i play something i can first, but then i listen to it a million times and imagine in my head what i wanna hear next, wherever the note is and practice it to get used to it so i just slowly build on a simple idea, there are many techniques for composing none wrong.)
And before i used to do it the other way, just build around what i can do, but now i try to be more music driven and not just what i can do, then i can practice it and learn it.
your first composition might not be good, what is the right thing to do ? give up ? or keep going ? u can still practice other peoples music while striding for your own.
I am in no way suggesting that what you are doing is wrong or a waiste of time or unusefull, i am suggestiong that we shouldnt use someones good achivement (yours) to knock something unrelated. Shouldnt use anyones good achivement or succes to knok anything perriod, just make the compliment u wanna make, too often i see it here, people are paying someone a compliment but really they are also using it to in a round about sort of way criticise someone else with it .
and since this week i been trying to compose something and it just happens to be on the next thread... a solea thing i am trying to compose cause i decided latley to try harder to slowly come up with my own stuff i like, cause its getting harder and hader at myspace, all the famous guitarists whos falsetas i play are starting to come there and i am expecting a tap on the shoulder any day i fell a litlle weird reading this
specially since the 2 arent related, if i play Paco solea falseta better like the recording, still dosent solve my myspace problem, i still need to come up with my own stuff.
I know this peticular time it is the wrong reason to compose for but i like the cute girls there !! and it makes me happy !! if i got to chose between the cute girls there and the respect here, i will drop you people like a bag of potatos everytime jk.....kind off
my choices are pretty straight foward, happy first, technique and respect here somewhere lower.
i am of your way of thinking too, just dont think we should discurage composing, even if at first sucks, if you dont practice it will always suck no matter how good your technique is..
And I am not sure if its aimed at me, i dont wanna pressume either way, but i dont happen to think it all sucks lol, i happen to think only 30% sucks, i love the rest !
well u cant blame me for beeing a litlle paranoid , i am not exactly confident when it comes to composing lol and everytime anyone mentions anything negative about anything to do with playing (and dosent give names) i always feel like its aimed at me cause every bad habbit there is I have and even if i dont i feel like i do.
well ok, it makes perfect sence, in the challenge, just ignore the 3 pages i wrote
great job btw !!! this challenge is a wonderfull idea, you are a wonderfull well balanced, funny , charming, fair, pleasing to the eye admin !!!and we love you , I love you !!
i hate it too how some so called composers put 2 notes togheder and call it a composition, its so moraly wrong !! losers !! but u werent talking about mine right ?
if i wasent used to always putting my foot in my mouth and reading things wrong and overeacting i would be so embarrased right now ...
Composition majors at canservatory learn their art by studying other composers. Jimi Hendrix learned how to play by learning the tunes of dozens of blues players. Same with Stevie Ray Vaughan, VanHalen, Tomatito, Vicente Amigo etc... If you want to learn how to compose in certain Palo then learn pieces in that Palo, and for the best understanding of the evolution of the form start with the earliest performers and recordings and learn those TUNES. Just as a modern composer studied Bach before they begin the study of Schoenberg or Bitten. Before you begin breaking the rules try learning them first. Just as Paco was playing Nino Ricardos tunes before he started composing his own.
Learn as many tunes as you can.
Every composer/artist is a THIEF!!!!
Florian, I will bet any amount of money that if you were to decide to get into this challenge (You have til December) not only would your technic be improved but so will your compositional skills. This challenge is a win win , even if one only gets the piece at half the tempo the knowledge gained is invaluable.
Rain i agreee with you, one must learn the basics and play other people before atempting to compose, thats wht i was saying earlyer.
quote:
Florian, I will bet any amount of money that if you were to decide to get into this challenge (You have til December) not only would your technic be improved but so will your compositional skills. This challenge is a win win , even if one only gets the piece at half the tempo the knowledge gained is invaluable.
I plan to improve this year as i have been every year , with or without this piece
I bet you a million bucs that if i practice direct technique or pieces my heart is in, and composing until december they will improve even more
this is a greate challenge if i had the time i would be in but i dont, there are many things i need to work on and very litlle time, things to do with dancers and singer and my own stuff i wanna learn, and i wanna upgrade the rythm of each palo i play and look at it really closely this year, and i am still thinking about doing 2 falsetas out of this, to join the team spirit because some of you are so into it and i dont wanna be a bad sport but i dont really wanna comit for the whole piece.
this is a greate challenging piece and greate for technique but so are many other things that interest me more and help me more, i dont have the kind of time where i can fully comit to this just for the technique exercise, i need something that works technique and I can use afterwoods for what i need at the same time.
u are making me sound like i am making every excuse in the world lol, but really its simple ther piece dosent interest me as much as it might some of you guys and even if i said yes id never put my heart into it as much as you would have to , to do a good job of it. so theres no point.
i dont like the this enough to wanna learn it completly i dont care how greate it is for my technique i just like what i like and what i dont , i dont learn.
i enjoy a challenge as much as the next guy but not if the challenge is so far out of my way, i can find a million challenges i can acctualy put my heart into.
I acctualy think i am beeing very methodical and smart about this , instead of impulsive and just jump into it when i know full well i cant afford the time, and i am not crazy about the piece just for the sake of prooving something. If you guys are into this piece cool, lern it, but if i did it would just be to proove something, and thats not reason enough.
am quite proud of myself for not letting pride make this decision for me 1 year ago i would have said yes without thinking out of fear of appearing like a coward. Now appearing like a coward dosent bother me as much as long as i get to work on what i know i need to and wanna work on.
I am pretty convinced i am acting in my own best interest and that i am making the right choice by me, its not a win win situation if time is a factor
I have to weight up the advantages and disadvantages according to my needs
advantage: greate for technique, timing (i dont think the composing idea applies expecially that much, this trains you in composing as much as any piece)
disadvantage :I can learn something that gives me all the advantages above and can use and wanna use with dancers, gigs, recordings etc. at the end of it in the same time it would take me to learn this.
its pretty clear what my choice should be and it makes sence to me
Well... I dont like this bulerias.. Plazuela would be nicer. I also have to buy a new guitar before start practiceing... I sold my major guitar around 2 weeks ago.
Ricardo man that was really great! I was wondering who would be first with a rough version. You'll have those rough corners smoothed out in a few weeks. Thanks for the camera angle and the slowed down techniques. It was iia in the end for the rasgeo?
quote:
this is a great challenge if i had the time i would be in but i dont
Flo- I've been biting my tongue for the last week but I'm just pointing out that in the time its taken you writing reams on composition and inspiration and why you dont have time to learn this piece, you could have learned it twice over by now. Its just 8 falsetas, each one takes a couple hours to memorise! Ricardo got it in 3 weeks and you are still writing pages about why you dont have time to learn it. Try practising one at a time with your dancers (which you are lucky to have the opportunity to rehearse with regularly) thats a good way of getting a new falseta en compas. In 2 months you could have the whole thing without trying! If you really dont want to do it then dont - noone is forcing you and I know you are busy with other projects but every time you spend an hour writing a page, I'm thinking "you could have learned the first falseta...and the second...and the third"
(its not in my nature to ignore someone adressing me, just cant do it, i have about 800 comments on myspace and i have replied to each one, and each message i have ever recived another 800 so as long as people adress me i will replie cause thats all i know how to do the option of ever ignoring anyone adressing me never enters my mind)
u dont have to bite your tongue buddy, this is my chill time its not my practice time, its my dvds time, in between practicing, i come here to drink coffe , smoke a cigarete and read or writte, in theory yes i could have memorised some of the notes, but but thats just the eazy part, and ultimatley u are right , i dont like it enough to wanna learn it, that is the main, biggest reason.
lol no noone has a gun to my head but almost everyone has tried to convince me to learn it , even tho i think that my reasons for not make perfect sence ( not for everyone but for me, under my own current circumstances) and are pretty resonable and pretty well tought out... i thought
I mean if someone gave me the reasons i just gave here, all i could possibly come back with is " Fair enough"
Yes half of the falsetas are the same but the ugly ones arent inside. I just like it more.. Maybe coz of the palmas in the background which makes it more rocking ..maybe. Ok I heared the video of ricardo playing et tempul today at work with silly cheap speakers.. now I hear it with my headphones and its much better.. Maybe I can live with el tempul.
I was trying to work out some of the falsetas today. Man...In all honesty, I'm never gonna cope with all that picado stuff. I'm somehow gonna have to deconstruct the whole damned thing into a thumb-based tune! I'm gonna have a think about this.... Hmmm....
cheers,
Ron
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A good guitar might be a good guitar But it takes a woman to break your heart
I was trying to work out some of the falsetas today. Man...In all honesty, I'm never gonna cope with all that picado stuff. I'm somehow gonna have to deconstruct the whole damned thing into a thumb-based tune! I'm gonna have a think about this.... Hmmm....
cheers,
Ron
Try doing some legatos when you get it going faster. At first just try to do the picados really slow and careful, but in rhythm. You have a lot of time to work on it right if you want. Sure some things can be replaced by thumb only though, but not all...keep at it man! Ricardo
I'm somehow gonna have to deconstruct the whole damned thing into a thumb-based tune! I'm gonna have a think about this.... Hmmm....
NO NO NO NO , U SAID !! Played as it is played !! u cant change the rules half way through, no sorry , i cant accept that what about the ," - This is what challenging yourself is all about ?" and not just playing stuff that "that "fit" your hand and technique. "
just messing , do what u want
I would have tought picado is eazyer to do at a faster speed than thumb ( i say this without knowing what part you are refering to ), if you can achive the same speed and exact effect with your thumb as he could with his picado, my hat is off to you !! that's no joke not only should you be allowed to do it but congratulated for it.
Try doing some legatos when you get it going faster. At first just try to do the picados really slow and careful, but in rhythm.
Thanks Ricardo, I'm just going through it VERY slowly as I work out the falsetas (by ear and watching your vid). I've worked out all the falsetas up to the syncopated one before the Am section (which I'm not even thinking about yet!) I'm just using a lot of legato for the picado bits at the moment just to keep the timing, which sounds a bit corny, but not too bad for an amateur....but the bit that sounds horrible played legato and I find incredibly hard to play picado (even very slowly), is the bit near the end of the intro which goes....
A-G-F-G-A-Bf-C-D-C-Bf-A-C-Bf
That's a killer for me!
Mind you yesterday was one of those days where I felt like I had porridge inbetween my fingers!
Thanks for the encouragement......I'll keep at it.
cheers,
Ron
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A good guitar might be a good guitar But it takes a woman to break your heart
No Florian, If you read my very first post you will see that it's allowable to alter it or miss out bits to suit your own technique. The main thing is that it's got to be recognisable as "El Tempul"....to the degree that if you tried to call it your own composition, Paco's publishers would hit you with a law suit!
cheers,
Ron
_____________________________
A good guitar might be a good guitar But it takes a woman to break your heart
I was going i down, then a up , then i up. I have no idea how paco did it.
quote:
awkward to play a golpe with a on the first stroke and then immediately do an upstroke with a again on the second beat. I tried Hamias suggestion playin beat 2 with m but its easier (for me) with a.
quote:
Try i(golpe), i(up), a(down), i(golpe)
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I down(A Golpe) I up and A down etc.... 1- i down with golpe using a finger 2- i up 3- a down 4- i down 5- i up 6- a down
quote:
1. i down and golpe m and a together 2. i up 3. a down 4. m down and accent, m connects to a and waits 5. i down 6. i up and m and a together 'energise' for strong golpe.
I can't criticize you guys for lack of creativity! You tried every which way with those fingers to get it to work. Anyway my teacher here in UK, Francisco Antonio, very kindly recorded a little bit with a suggestion of how it can work. I've put it on youtube. He says:
"I'm not of course 100% sure that's how it's done but Paco de Lucia has a single note melody (every 2 beats - 12, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 2, 4 & 6) that stands out from the rasgueado and this is a way it can be done. Other rasgueado or alzapua attempts I've seen manage to keep the correct rhythm but not the melody. You'd need to have a listen to the recording to know what I mean - it's so fast that it goes by with hardly time to notice but on close listening..."
He's not in the Foro challenge himself, just trying to be helpful, so I hope some of you find this explanation useful. It's at:
Printable Version
i fell a litlle weird reading this 
what about the ," - This is what challenging yourself is all about ?" and not just playing stuff that "that "fit" your hand and technique. " 
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