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Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
 

RE: Todds Alegria (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
Although Todd admitted on the "other forum" that there's no dynamics on the piece, which is something that happens when you are using a computer and not a real musician.


Mike, that is a sweeping generalisation and completely wrong. It is perfectly possible to produce music full of dynamics with PC based technology. Have you ever used midi? Do you know what is possible using midi in conjunction with soft synths and soft samplers?

The reason Todd's Alegria lacks dynamics is his choice of compression at the mastering stage.

Jon
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 2 2004 8:55:45
 
Jon Boyes

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RE: Todds Alegria (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
Music is an end, not a means, Billyboy!


Well said.

Jon
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 2 2004 8:56:47
 
Billyboy

 

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RE: Todds Alegria (in reply to Jon Boyes

Yeh but bills need to be paid? Which kind of puts a dampener on that romantic ideal
Dave
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 2 2004 9:33:01
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3527
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Todds Alegria (in reply to Jon Boyes

Jon, I'm not trying to indict MIDI as a useless technology. I'm just telling you what I am hearing in this clip and my impressions as to why they occur. And I think that in part I'm right, whether it's Todd's programming or what, but it wouldn't sound like that if he had used a live bassist as opposed to a mouse, you have to give me that. Anyways, like I said the MIDI on Gladiator sounded pretty good, if I run into someone who makes it sound good I'll definitely use it for orchestration, but not for a guitar or bass or percussion part. Those instruments are too "earthy" and just like I wouldn't use MIDI for vocal, I wouldn't use it for basic band parts.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 2 2004 15:37:08
 
Escribano

Posts: 6311
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Todds Alegria (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

but it wouldn't sound like that if he had used a live bassist as opposed to a mouse, you have to give me that


It's not just the sound, in fact it isn't the sound at all, it's the timing - it's bound to be too good. There are elements in Todd's recording where the guitar and bass finish too precisely - as he is driven by the rhythm which cannot hear him. This does not happen in a live band, very often - unless it's right at the end (in rock) so the afficiandos comment "nice and tight". It can happen in analogue recording when members of the band record their parts individually. We used to lay down the drum and bass together for the rest to follow.

MIDI is clearly not ideal for something as crazy as flamenco. I would love to hear Todd live with or without backing. I am expecting a DVD from him of his first live performance in Annaplois recently. I may grab some clips for us to view on the forum (with his permission, of course).

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 2 2004 16:43:16
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
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From: Scotland

RE: Todds Alegria (in reply to Billyboy

I normally only get a Sunday free to practise guitar, sometimes a Saturday morning.
Today I was pretty happy that I'd made a little progress since Christmas.
God it's so SLOW!!
It got me thinking.
You know, I first heard ToddK about 18 months ago when he posted some Tomatito falsetas on FT.
Even then he could play amazingly well.

Now Todd practises 8 hours (at least) a day EVERY day.
He also plays guitar (not flamenco) professionally to earn a living.
There is no doubt that he has made a lot of subtle improvements in his playing, as we can hear in his new Alegrias.
But it just shows the amount of practise required, so maybe we should not feel too unhappy about the time it takes to get things right?

Just a thought

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 3 2004 18:45:07
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Todds Alegria (in reply to Escribano

Simon

quote:

I am expecting a DVD from him of his first live performance in Annaplois recently.


Have you kissed and made up ?

Ron , I agree with you, I have always said :"If you want to play like Tomatito you have to practice like Tomatito".

Man i am wise today
While i am feeling wise i have another saying : "Dont pee in the wind or you will get wet."

thats all thank you
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 4 2004 4:13:24
 
Billyboy

 

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Joined: Aug. 18 2003
 

RE: Todds Alegria (in reply to Ron.M

I practice about 10 to 20 minutes a day, and go for weeks without playing at all, the only reason to practice 8 hours a day is to build up a reportage. Cant see what else can be gained by practicing that much.
Dave
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 4 2004 6:57:11
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Todds Alegria (in reply to Billyboy

Billyboy I always agree with you , except for now


Are you serious ?

take a guy that practices 8 hours a day and a guy that practices 20 minutes a day and compare them at the end of a year , or week, or month you would hear the difference.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 4 2004 12:11:36
 
Billyboy

 

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Joined: Aug. 18 2003
 

RE: Todds Alegria (in reply to Florian

Iam serious, I'm not in the same league as Todd, but with flamenco, it is not technique orientated like classical guitar is, its based on feel, Denude, and rhythm, those things can't be practiced, the compas can be, but its like riding a bike, once you have the right feel thats it, what on earth could you spend 8 hours doing? And sometimes you can practice too much and tire out your right hand. Guitarists that do loads of Dance accompaniment, lose their dexterity in the right hand, I heard a few years ago, don't know if it is true, that solo flamenco concert guitarists try to limit the amount of dance accompaniment so as not to tire or damage the right hand, I think it was Don Peron that irreversibly damaged right hand ligaments from doing too much accompaniment.
Dave
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 4 2004 13:19:03
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Todds Alegria (in reply to Billyboy

Every technique used in classical guitar is used in flamenco guitar plus more.

Guitarist with duende but without technique is like a Greate driver without a car.

The only reason you are not in Tod's league is because for whatever reason or by choice you havent practiced 8 hours a day for as long as he has.

Tod started out just like the rest of us, everyone starts out as a beginer, even Paco the rest is up to you.
Duende cannot be learned but the technique to be able to express it can.



ps: this is just my own opinion, i am not claiming to know more than anyone
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 4 2004 16:19:54
 
Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
 

RE: Todds Alegria (in reply to Escribano

quote:

ORIGINAL: Simon
I am expecting a DVD from him of his first live performance in Annaplois recently. I may grab some clips for us to view on the forum (with his permission, of course).


I'd love to see that. I'll have to badger Todd for a copy. Is he selling them?

I just transcribed a Todd bulerias falseta this weekend. I think it took me longer than it took to transcribe some of Tomatitos stuff.

Amazing falseta though, very, very clever.


Jon
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 4 2004 16:23:14
 
Billyboy

 

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RE: Todds Alegria (in reply to Florian

yeh but classical guitar you have to memorise complicated left hand patterns, with flamenco its a lot simpler in the left hand fingering, the only thing that separates me and Todd is compositional ability, technique wise nothing fazes me, and I play maybe 20 minutes every 2 days, but I think composing ability comes from ones listening habits rather than playing, and a natural musical ability to hear melodies, and re gurgitate it into something of ones own, this ability comes naturally, and no amount of practice will improve. I read an interview with PDL, and he said he doesn't practice in the trad sense, scales etc, just plays when he is trying to compose something, some people struggle with technique though, and need to practice loads.
Dave
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 4 2004 16:48:24
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Todds Alegria (in reply to Billyboy

Billyboy

Did you also happen to see the interview where Paco said that his dad used to lock him in his room as a child and he had to practice scales from morning till night ?

And the one where he says that IS 90% prespiration and 10% inspiration

Sure he might not practice technique now because hes "Paco" but before he was Paco you best belive that he did nothing but practice.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 4 2004 17:12:12
 
duende

Posts: 3051
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Todds Alegria (in reply to Billyboy

What if you express your duende much better if you got good techik?
If you don´t have technik you have to limit your playing to what you can play and not what your emotions/heart wants to express.

Henrik.
...of course good technik ..and bad taste is always bad..if u know what i mean..

How the #"#%# do i spell teckiqueaiyeaaah!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 4 2004 18:50:21
 
Billyboy

 

Posts: 389
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RE: Todds Alegria (in reply to duende

Yeh agree in the formative years you need to practice, the whole of my teenage years was spent working out Richy Blackmore rock guitar riffs, after that classical guitar pieces, so I agree it is important early on, one thing I have noticed is that people who start guitar later in life, always seem to have poor technique compared to people who have been playing since early teens, going back to the practice thing, could anyone tell what kind of practice you would do for say 5 6 hours a day, scales, compas?. I havent a clue how you would practice flamenco for that long. I have never practiced scales in my life.
Cheers
Dave
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 4 2004 21:22:45
 
Escribano

Posts: 6311
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Todds Alegria (in reply to Billyboy

quote:

could anyone tell what kind of practice you would do for say 5 6 hours a day


I have played guitar since I was 13 (not flamenco). If I had 5 hours a day as I did on vacation in Jerez, I would practise flamenco 5-6 hours a day. Getting my arpeggios stronger and clearer, all kinds of rasgeos (particularly triplets and i-m-i for example), alzapua, picado (ah, picado), scales for finger memory and speed then the palos. All to the metronome.

If I was aiming for accompanying, I would only work on clear rasgeos and the odd falseta in compas, you don't much time to play anything else.

In Jerez, Fergus practised 3-4 hours a day and it showed.

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Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 4 2004 22:07:16
 
Merle

Posts: 218
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
 

RE: Todds Alegria (in reply to Escribano

Hey, Simon, let's invite Todd in!? AGAIN??

The guy is a world class player...how can you doubt that?

Then he can answer all the questions that we are asking>>>>

Todd is a greate source of information, not only in guitar, but recording, therory, flamenco....

This forum is really missing out if we can' let him come in here and tell us 'this or that'...

Merle

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 5 2004 0:14:43
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3527
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Todds Alegria (in reply to Florian

Dave, I can't figure out if you're joking or not. If you don't practice four hours a day, then you aren't a world class player. Have you ever heard what some pianist said, "If I don't practice one day, I notice; if I don't practice two days, my wife knows, if I don't practice three days, everyone knows." To get to a high level requires lots of playing and practicing and retaining the high level does as well. I don't think using yourself as an example is good because while you are a good player, you are not world-class. Flamenco is not anymore about duende than any other music. Other music calls it feel or soul or passion... The difference is that flamenco guitar is quite technically oriented. And I think Todd's main strength is not in his compositional ability but in his technique. He has incredible control, the control that comes to people who practice four hours a day and have good attention to detail.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 5 2004 4:26:50
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3527
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Todds Alegria (in reply to Florian

By the way, there are several things most people lie about. Women lie about their age and their weight, men about their height. Most people also lie about how much money they make and almost all musicians lie about how much they practice.

And the reason that people who start guitar later in life lack good technique is because unlike children, they don't have time to practice ten hours a day.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 5 2004 5:24:47
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Todds Alegria (in reply to Florian

quote:

almost all musicians lie about how much they practice.


Damn I am busted
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 5 2004 6:08:34
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Todds Alegria (in reply to Florian

And if that is the case Billyboy only practices 10 minutes a day , NAUGHTY BILLY!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 5 2004 6:17:06
 
Escribano

Posts: 6311
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Todds Alegria (in reply to Merle

quote:

Hey, Simon, let's invite Todd in!? AGAIN?? The guy is a world class player...how can you doubt that?


His ability has never been in question. You can invite Todd in if you can find another Admin (I'm serious). Nothing personal but I cannot afford the time to keep putting out the fires.

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Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 5 2004 8:53:54
 
Merle

Posts: 218
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
 

RE: Todds Alegria (in reply to Escribano

quote:

You can invite Todd in if you can find another Admin (I'm serious).


OK, I get the message...take care.

Merle

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 5 2004 16:01:36
 
Billyboy

 

Posts: 389
Joined: Aug. 18 2003
 

RE: Todds Alegria (in reply to Merle

Classical Piano is totally differant than Flamenco, and the 5 or 6 hours is only rquired for virtuoso playing, as Ian davis once said,'I have heard fantastic flamenco from guitarists that cannot play a tremelo, and only know three chords' I remember hearing Serranito on the radio, and he played everything at break neck speed, super fast picado, but nothing flamenco came out, it was just an exhibition of technique, I admit though that to be a pro flamenco player these days you need to have to have a large reportua of falsetas for each Palos, accompaniement experiance as well which probably would take up 5- 6 hours a day, but that is only to build up a large reportua, technique is like riding a bike, no matter how much you play triplets, they alway sound the same, I remember years ago, when I saw a guitarist play a triplet P,e,i, and as I had alway struggled to play the trad p,m,p, I went home, and found I could do it intantly, same with alzapua, no amount of practice makes much differance, although picado, and tremelo do seem to improve the more you practice, also the right hand strengh, and power inproves the more you play.
Dave
Dave
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 5 2004 22:12:19
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3527
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Todds Alegria (in reply to Florian

Hmmm, so Dave let me get this right. Only virtuosos need to practice because they are playing at a virtuoso level. And novices need to practice because they have not yet spent thousdands of hours practicing. But there is a slice of players inbetween, presumably you are one of them, that has "mastered" guitar but has no aspirations toward virtuosity. So in this situation it is a waste of time to practice, better to go to the pub.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 5 2004 23:33:02
 
Merle

Posts: 218
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
 

RE: Todds Alegria (in reply to Miguel de Maria

Miguel, what the pphucckk .... why argue about how much practice is needed...

every one is different, you will never agree!

Me, I always pracice, and if we don't ? Well, that's another story!! ;>)

Merle

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 6 2004 0:13:31
 
Billyboy

 

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Joined: Aug. 18 2003
 

RE: Todds Alegria (in reply to Miguel de Maria

I seem to be tying myself in knotts with this thread, so I will say no more Just one thing is that I always feel guilty when occasionally I do play for 5 six hours, although I enjoy it, cause at the end of the day for a non Spaniard it is unlikley that you will ever earn a decent living, the market for CD's is small, the gig circit is limited in the UK for an English man, If I had spent the same amount of time learning Brain surgery I would be on £100,000 a year by now , I admit though Iam a born pesimist, comes from living in a grim northern mill town all my life.
Dave
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 6 2004 11:51:39
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Todds Alegria (in reply to Billyboy

Dave,
Like yourself, I dont practise scales etc, but just play around with whatever I'm in the mood for. But then again, I've no aspirations to play anywhere professionally.
I would seriously doubt that you could make any sort of living here playing only Flamenco.
Maybe teaching?... Dunno.
I think audiences here in folk clubs and suchlike would appreciate one or two numbers, but that's about the limit of their attention span IMO, unless you're playing at a dedicated Flamenco peña or maybe a Spanish society evening or something.
I also agree that the amount of work you have to put into learning to play guitar even moderately well would earn you a first class Honours Degree easily LOL.

quote:

Iam a born pesimist, comes from living in a grim northern mill town all my life.


Never mind lad, at least you can play for whippet.

cheers

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 6 2004 12:24:33
 
Billyboy

 

Posts: 389
Joined: Aug. 18 2003
 

RE: Todds Alegria (in reply to Ron.M

LOL actually thats a good idea Ron, my Whippet has a tendancy to howl when I play, I could go busking with it, and play a Siguiria, with Whippet Cante accompaniment
Dave
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 6 2004 14:10:36
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