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NormanKliman
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
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 RE: solea por buleria (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
the specific title of that melody is "buleria corta" as opposed to the other simillar one that is called "larga". But at that tempo it really sounds not like bulerias as I think of it, but still I can see why they call it that.
Here are some examples por bulerías rather than por soleá. The corta is heard much more often than the larga. Notice how different the two examples of the corta sound. You can hear this cante with the change to E7 throughout the Familia Zambo recording.
bulería corta:
http://www.canteytoque.es/bulsolcortaporbuleriaam1.mp3
http://www.canteytoque.es/bulsolcortaporbuleriagloria.mp3
bulería larga:
http://www.canteytoque.es/bulsollargaporbuleriaam1.mp3
http://www.canteytoque.es/bulsollargaporbuleriapastora.mp3
(edited 9 December 2012 to update URL)
quote:
I truly believe people need to be more sensitive to the possibilities
What, you mean taking the time to get to know something thoroughly before making changes to it?
quote:
You got any recommendations Norman?
Just stuff that I like. Anything by Borrico or La Piriñaca, for their compás. Manuel and Pepe Torre, Tomás, Pastora, Mojama, El Gloria, Juan Talega, Aurelio, Caracol, Antonio and Curro Mairena, Agujetas Viejo, Fernanda and Bernarda, El Perrate, Chocolate, Joselero, La Perla, Rafael Romero, Terremoto, Manuel Agujetas, La Paquera, Rancapino, Diego Rubichi, Camarón, Gaspar de Utrera, Manuel Moneo...
Just about anything on Rafael Moreno's letra website seems to coincide with my preferences:
http://www.telefonica.net/web2/flamencoletras/
Matic, I just had a look at the site you linked to in another message in this thread, and there are some excellent artists and recordings there!
http://www.flamenco-letras.de/verzeichnis.html
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Date Dec. 24 2007 10:34:54
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NormanKliman
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
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RE: solea por buleria (in reply to Ricardo)
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Hi everyone,
Whoops, I just found some mistakes in my Camarón attributions.  Sorry!  I've fixed the original message for the first link, with the URL included just to avoid any further confusion, and I've deleted the second attribution, since the video's not available and I can't go back to check again.
Actually, it's the order of the attributions that was messed up, so I think there's a Frijones 4 somewhere in that second clip.
My classification of what Camarón is doing is just a convenient way to identify it. He might not have actually been thinking of Juaniquí in that hybrid soleá. Those high notes remind me of tangos, too. And at this stage of development of the art form, with so many interesting variations out there, it might have just been a coincidence. His interesting second cante starts out like a bulería larga but he thoroughly reworks the rest. Pretty darn good, in my opinion.
The bulería larga is the one that Torre and Tomás sing with the letra "Cuándo tú me eches de menos." The identifying characteristic is the melody. The bulería larga, the bulería corta and the bulería Sordo La Luz are the three main cantes that make up the style of singing called bulerías por soleá, or soleá por bulerías or bulerías para escuchar. Two other cantes within this style, María La Moreno 1 and 2 are based on the bulería larga and corta, respectively. Sordo La Luz is the big show-stopping style used to end the series of cantes. Each of these cantes, except for the styles of María La Moreno (?), are also sung por bulerías (nearly twice as fast). You won't have to look very hard to find the bulería-bulería version of Sordo La Luz. If anyone's still interested, I can upload a sample to my website.
Sorry for the goof. Some Christmas present: Right out of the box and we had to take it back to the shop for repair!
Happy Holidays!!!
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Date Dec. 25 2007 4:59:46
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Ricardo
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: solea por buleria (in reply to NormanKliman)
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quote:
The bulería larga, the bulería corta and the bulería Sordo La Luz are the three main cantes that make up the style of singing called bulerías por soleá, or soleá por bulerías or bulerías para escuchar.
AWESOME! That is what I was saying all along, thanks for clearing it up for us! Glad you have the resources to give us all those specific titles, it really helps. Too bad the vids are down now. No worries about the goofs, happens to all of us.
Frijones, I will recognize for sure, but where did you get the "1,2,3,4" numerations for the different melodies?? "me llamo curro frijones..." Etc, is that number...2? 
quote:
I am saying meter of the poem is fixed...
I mean the "prima mia de me alma" is added on, and is adding syllables, and in this case, extends the phrase into a half compas. I mean I don't think of that as another line of verse because the melody did not yet "go there", if you get my meaning? I still think of it as a 3 liner with that extension, but that is because I am thinking about the song structure I guess?
OK guys, don't lose any sleep over this stuff it is all just beautiful music. Merry Christmas. I think I hear santa so I better pretend I am asleep or I won't get my flamenco CD's!!!
Ricardo
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Date Dec. 25 2007 18:10:43
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NormanKliman
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
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RE: solea por buleria (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
My question is why one is considered 'larga' and the other çorta?' Is it melody only?
Yes, but, in general terms, melodies are often sung in certain patterns that heighten the overall effect, and the finer points of the patterns are determined by the letra, so it's all relative. But the attributions have more to do with the melodies than anything else.
I get a big kick out of the whole attribution game, but it has little to do with the process of creation, execution and appreciation of art. Like Ricardo said, it's all just beautiful music. Closer adherence to classic forms can be a beautiful thing in its own way, and it can also provide great potential for appreciation, but, as a listener, I'm more impressed by the delivery: conviction, commitment, sincerity, etc., and of course musicianship. But that'd be better addressed in another thread.
So, back to our analytical approach: Obviously, if the classic melody is distributed in an entirely different way, it might sound so different that it wouldn't make sense to classify it the same way, but then again it wouldn't be the same melody. Also, when singers use bits and pieces of different cantes, it's not easy to say what's what. As I've said, in that second cante of Camarón, he used the bulería larga to introduce something entirely different. After the first line, the differences outweigh the similarities and it wouldn't make sense to call it a bulería larga.
The track titles of Mairena's bulerías cortas are "A quién le contaré yo" and "Cuando pasas," recorded on the albums "La gran historia del cante gitano andaluz" in 1966 and "Honores a la Niña de los Peines" in 1969. I think the classification "bulerías cortas" that Mairena assigned these tracks refers to a way of interpreting bulerías rather than designating any specifc cante. There are several different bulerías on each track but the classification refers to the entire track. I don't know much about this use of the term "bulería corta" but it might have been something that people used to say when the recordings were made. I haven't heard anyone but die-hard mairenistas use the expression, but flamenco's a hell of a lot bigger than my scope of experience, so I'll keep an eye out for any information on this.
Using "disk-track" nomenclature in reference to the 16-CD anthology, these two tracks could be referred to as Mairena 7-5 and 9-8, respectively. Sounds unsettlingly similar to quoting scripture. 
On the first track (7-5), he doesn't sing the bulería corta. But check out the second bulería (Que cantara y no llorara): it's a double-time version of the soleá Joaquín el de La Paula 2 (for example, "Dices que te vas a casar," which is the second cante on 15-3). Another example of how bulerías "borrows" other melodies. The second track (9-8) starts with three soleás of La Jilica: "Cuando pasas...," "Mal fin tenga..." and "Primita llévame..." The fourth and sixth cantes, "La verdad me da coraje" and "Si no te vienes conmigo," are the bulería corta that we've been discussing.
As long as we're on the subject of Antonio Mairena, you've probably noticed that there are a number of his recordings that use complete right-left separation of voice and guitar. There are a number of ways that aspiring accompanists can study the singing without the guitar: re-recording the track, changing the balance, disconnecting the speaker, etc. Too much fun for a wild and crazy guy like me.
quote:
where did you get the "1,2,3,4" numerations for the different melodies?? "me llamo curro frijones..." Etc, is that number...2?
Yeah, that letra is usually sung as Frijones 2. As I've pointed out on my website, this whole system of classification is the work of Luis and Ramón Soler as laid out in their books, "Antonio Mairena en el mundo de la siguiriya y la soleá" (1992) and "Los cantes de Antonio Mairena" (2004). My siguiriya and soleá webpages are entirely based on the information in these books, although I've corrected a number of mistakes after checking with the authors, and I've added some observations of my own. Some flamencologists use different names for the same cantes (Yllanda, Lacherna, etc.), so this system isn't the last word, at least not for those who insist on having the last word, haha!
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Date Dec. 25 2007 23:27:39
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Ricardo
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: solea por buleria (in reply to NormanKliman)
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quote:
I'm more impressed by the delivery: conviction, commitment, sincerity, etc., and of course musicianship.
Absolutely! I don't like when a flamencologist sits there like "hmm, that is not how it should be" when some guy or gal just sang his/her butt off!
quote:
Yeah, that letra is usually sung as Frijones 2. As I've pointed out on my website, this whole system of classification is the work of Luis and Ramón Soler as laid out in their books, "Antonio Mairena en el mundo de la siguiriya y la soleá" (1992) and "Los cantes de Antonio Mairena" (2004).
Ok, I am with you now. I don't mind what labels anyone uses, so long as we can all be on the same page. With flamenco, the problem is, it is usually the LABELS for things that become the arguement. 
One thing about Mairena. I totally love and respect what the guy did, but of course he is not my favorite singer to listen to for sure. And there are some funny things about him too. Like, did you guys notice the "Soleares" program on Rito. He sings "Solea de Triana", as he calls it himself. So the interview says "those don't sound like the ones we are used to hearing, can you explain?". We expect him to say he discovered some lost ones ones or something, but instead he says the payos didn't quite learn it right from the gypsies?!!   So you are like, is he BSing or what??
Little tid bits like that are why I like Rito, because in a video performance, what you see is what you get. The best is Pinini's daughter, talking about the "Alegrias" her dad sang, saying it was not cantiñas and he never called it that, then proceeds to sing it all out of tune. It is really a treasure IMO, so much better than taking a flamencologist's "word for it".
Ricardo
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Date Dec. 27 2007 3:34:22
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NormanKliman
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
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RE: solea por buleria (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
We expect him to say he discovered some lost ones ones or something, but instead he says the payos didn't quite learn it right from the gypsies?!! So you are like, is he BSing or what??
Gotta know how to distinguir.  In a lot of recordings of Triana styles the compás is all over the place. Most of those styles seem to be very old. I don't know who created them, but I generally prefer the recordings of gypsies, because of their compás. There's a good example of this In Rito, with the Torre family.
quote:
The best is Pinini's daughter, talking about the "Alegrias" her dad sang, saying it was not cantiñas and he never called it that, then proceeds to sing it all out of tune.
That's just what they called those cantes in her family. Another case of the label becoming the argument. She was a very old woman when that was recorded. I haven't gone over those alegrías in some time, but I remember that Eduardo de la Malena's accompaniment sounds funny. They don't seem to be hitting it off. I mentioned this in an earlier message, about the guitarist not hitting the V7 (B7 por arriba) in her soleá. It might not have been the right capo position for her.
(Edit December 27) Ah, wait a minute, you're talking about Fernanda la Vieja, right? I'm thinking of the María Peña thing, also in Rito. I haven't checked, but I think she was another of Pinini's daughters.
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Date Dec. 27 2007 6:18:11
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Ricardo
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: solea por buleria (in reply to tele)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tele
May I ask what is the difference between solea por medio and solea por bulerias?
Guitar wise Solea por medio implies slower (sometimes looser) playing in the A phrygian key. Solea por bulerias refers to the song form and normally played a bit faster and more driving rhythmically than solea por medio, but further, there is no need for it to be in A phrygian key....could be in E (por arriba) or any other modern version. Counting and feel have not so much to do with distinction as tempo.
Baile wouldn't use "solea por medio", nor cante, it's a guitar term. But the baile Solea por buleria usually implies a faster tempo dance than normal solea, and probably skips out on the slow cantes from Alcala jumping in to buleria larga or corta cantes mixed with jerez solea (frijones most common).
Cante never used the term "solea por buleria" in the past ....it appears more I think because of baile and guitar playing. YOu either had solea, could be fast or slow of any style guitar played arriba or medio....or you had buleria por solea which is only the 3 melodies Norman describes in this thread (larga, corta, and sorda de luz). Now adays, I assume thanks to baile, the terms "solea por buleria" and "buleria por solea" seem to be used interchangeably and even some proper solea letras get tossed into the mix no matter what general label is tacked on.
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Date Dec. 8 2012 21:21:44
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