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Ricardo Thanks for your detailed reply. To further my (and everyone's) education, do you have any clips of Solea por Bulerias Bulerias por Solea (there has to be a difference between these 2 but I haven't a clue what) Solea por medio that really illustrates the difference in the sound and pace.
If you'd like to listen to the full version of the Bacan solea, PM me your email address. Val
Solea por medio:
Solxbul:
Bulerias por solea: Notice what he says about it too!
OK, not enough examples or clear as mud? A single performance can mix things up too don't forget. Here, Camaron singing Solea
And bulerias por solea, or solxbul if you prefer:
In all examples, focus on the melody if you can. If they sound sort of different, good, perhaps you are getting familiar with the nuances. If they all sound sort of the same, you can see why the labels can get mixed, or rather, when the melodies DO mix in a performance, one can accept any of the labels. Likewise "cantiñas" can be a catch all for all the alegrias, romeras, and various colatillas or not, you want to sing a single performance.
Canela (Puro y Jondo) sings straight bulería: larga María la Moreno 1 Sordo La Luz
Camarón 1 (http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=5cOAb5ejJYc:) soleá Joaquín el de La Paula 1 bulería larga soleá Juan Talega-Juaniquí 2 juguetillo
Capullo introduces the Mellizo soleás with, "Yo tengo una sorpresa para mi Cádiz." Canela sings the last cante with echoes of some siguiriya or tonás. It sure looks like the guy on the Canela video had a few drinks that evening!
All except Canela practically alternate between bulerías and soleás, which is something that doesn't seem to show up much on older recordings.
Insofar as what to call it for guitar playing, I just say fast and slow soleá, por medio and por arriba.
Awesome post. So there are all the specifics, and now hopefully folks understand why the label and aire of the guitar and all that, is not so big a deal. It is OK to call it all Solea if you wanted. But here are some generalizations of my own (though Norman's labels are most specific and correct):
What you call Solea of Juan Talega, is like normal solea to me, just a little different than the one from Alcala, which is also typical to me. Solea of Juan de Paula again is typcial solea to me, I think of as Solea from Alcala. Very common to hear these for the dance called "Solea", but sung slower than these examples. The letra Terremoto first sings I hear quite often as normal bulerias, not the melody of course, the lyric. So good example about the meter of the poem being secondary. Just talking about melodies here.
Solea of Frijones, I think of as Solea from Jerez, and most often when folks talk about Solea por bulerias, these are typcially sung. For dancers, this is the more "macho" melody with higher notes, so in a dance of Solxbul, this type of melody is sung after any others.
What you call "buleria corta" that goes to E7, and "buleria larga" which is accomp with just Bb and A, I think of as the typical Bulerias por Solea melodies. Again, these would be sung in the dance called "Solxbul" before the more macho Frijones melodies. Again, you call it straight bulerias but the melody is not litterally the same as bulerias to my ear, and it has lots to do with the speed being slower, and the melismas of the individual singers.
Solea of Mellizo I thought of as "solea from Cadiz", again, typical for the "Solea" dance like the other two of Talega and Juana el del Paula. Did not realize that was his until now. I thought the "surprise" was that he was going to cut off the falseta. JK. Honestly I thought he meant that that Camaron thing was the surprise.
You can hear the sharpened second degree (B natural in por medio position) in the voices of the oldest singers, and the E7 fits it beautifully. It's strange that none of the old-time guitarists played that, because the B natural clashes with any other chord and the E7 is an easy alternative. It's surprising to hear that unresolved harmony on so many recordings.
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Jeez norman, who is the cante nerd NOW?!
Well, I prefer "guitar monk," actually. Cante is too cool to be nerdy. For me, a cante nerd would be one of those guys who collects recordings like they were baseball cards, or maybe certain purists who seem to spend more time arguing about singing than actually listening to it.
Holy smokes. Weren't you the one talking about regional styles compared to personal.
Yep. Wished I had put up the vids and got the specific letras from Norman, BEFORE I started generalizing. What it comes down to is these specifics, but that is A LOT of detailed info for folks simply asking what is the "difference" between Solea and Solea por bulerias. Imagine if Youtube uploaders had Norman's list for the TITLES of the vids.
But since I was trying to categorize these melodies, and sure a lot of folks won't hear the likes and difference's yet, I was just pointing out that the melodies I think of as Solea, NOT Solxbul or Bulxsol, were those that sound like Alcala style, in hopes people might catch on. Specifically you have Joaqin and Juan in THESE examples (Sorry for the double "juan" typo) that were the "solea" examples. And labled as such by TVE or youtubers, etc, probably not coincidentally, DESPITE the other styles mixed in to the performance. Point being, when I hear Solea Alcala, I don't think "solea por bulerias" as a good title just because of the key and tempo of the guitar. It is just "solea".
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I realized maybe I do make a bigger deal about than need be. But only because I have been privy to heated discussions about the aire required for each.
When it comes to "labeling" this stuff so folks can understand, yeah, too big of a deal. But when it comes down to what makes a BETTER than average accompanist, then you are right to make a big deal about it in terms of guitar "aire". But you can see when it gets MIXED up, which like these vids show both old and modern times it certainly does, accompanying solea por medio or por buleras or bulerias por solea, its all the same darn thing guitarwise, once things get started (ie, you don't have change "aire" mid song, just because the singer went from Alcala to jerez).
About Terremoto borrowing letras...LOTS of singers do that. At least that I have noticed. Even ones with seeming large repertoire. Caracol, Camaron, etc, etc...
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I concur . However, one singer told me that machos sometimes call for more drive (although a dancer may not want that.)
Ok great, finally! Dancers often WANT that "drive", and request that type of letra at a certain point in the dance. But if by drive you mean an unwanted speed up, well what I have done is to keep the tempo, but lots of hard driving continuous rasgueado there gives it the "drive" and up feeling w/out actually speeding up. At least for dance, this supports the "macho" letras.
maybe i will stick to not knowing this stuff, what an immense amount of info
heres my question: i realize i can benifit from knowing this, but is this requisite for the course? will i need to know this on the final?
Yeah, that was what I was worried about and started trying to generalize more before Norman hit us with that list. It is not so important to know all those specifics in the beginning. Like hearing a guitar solo by Paco, you don't have to know which album each falseta comes from to appreciate it is just a mix of bulerias. Cante is similar to guitar falsetas in that the singer gets to mix it up too. For aficionados, gradually learning more about each specific letra can be fun, but again not necessary to enjoy and appreciate what is going on, or even to accompany properly.
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It's strange that none of the old-time guitarists played that, because the B natural clashes with any other chord and the E7 is an easy alternative. It's surprising to hear that unresolved harmony on so many recordings.
Well even young modern guys, and guys with experience miss things here and there. It is part of flamenco, or real flamenco anyway, to improvise. Sometimes the singer gets to that note LATE in the compas and the guitarist was already headed a different direction. He can't always make it work, but he has to keep going. The thing about mistakes is not that you suck if you make one, but that you hold it together, keep the compas and make a strong ending with the singer. There are more 'forgiveable' mistakes then others of course, and this E7 thing is one of them.
The fact that historical recordings are preserved that way shows that it is more important to have an improvised performance, with that feeling of spontinaity, then to have it all worked out. A lot of modern cante recordings are really worked out TOO much. In my experience, a good flamenco singer prefers a guitarist that listens and can do things on the fly, to one that seems to know what the singer SHOULD be singing. The ideal accompanist both knows his stuff, AND can adapt easily to the changes from the norm. Hope that makes sense.
Anyone that would speak much of the cante has probably listened to alot and probably still seeking others thoughts.
That's why I don't see anything nerdy about talking about it. There's a repertoire of cantes and the name-that-cante game is very interesting. But sometimes people get upset or maybe just sidetracked when they talk about it.
For example, Camarón's three-in-one soleá (see above). For some people, he was a heretic and a corruptor, but I don't think he sang that soleá as a result of carelessness or not knowing what he was doing.
What I want to say is that flamencology has a bad reputation, maybe well earned by some of its more "enthusiastic" practitioners. When people try to turn art into science it can take the fun out of things real quick! Art is the development of an idea, and every artist reaches a point where he or she has absorbed forms and starts creating. From that point on, it's a question of taste. Like I said, some people like to argue about it, and that's no fun...
For aficionados, gradually learning more about each specific letra can be fun, but again not necessary to enjoy and appreciate what is going on, or even to accompany properly.
I think it's very important to know letras in order to accompany well.
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Sometimes the singer gets to that note LATE in the compas and the guitarist was already headed a different direction. (....) The fact that historical recordings are preserved that way shows that it is more important to have an improvised performance, with that feeling of spontinaity, then to have it all worked out.
I don't think it shows that. I agree that good guitarists are able to "hold it together," but what the old recordings show is that this cante has been going to B natural since the early 20th century and that it's taken guitarists decades to start playing E7. I may be wrong, but I think that, more often than not, guitarists used to just play B flat or C7 chords. It's grating to the ear and I find it surprising that nobody thought of playing an E7. For example, Eduardo de La Malena misses this cambio in the siguiriyas he recorded with Juan Talega (to B7) and in the soleá he did with María Peña for Rito y Geografía. He was an excellent accompanist, though, and he catches it in other recordings.
I think it must have sounded too weird to guitarists, or maybe some of those cantes weren't very well-known until the second half of the 20th century.
But anyone that thinks they know so much about Flamenco that they can stop asking questions or debating/arguing/discussing for the sake of learning more is moronic. There is always more to learn, especially as an aficionado.
He plays I7 in Mairena's recordings of the bulería corta. Ricardo plays IVmi with Caracol and Mairena, but in 1969 he recorded V7 with Curro Malena.
The V7 harmony has been around forever, in siguiriyas, for example. Melchor plays an E7 in Tomás Pavón's "Y Dios mandó el remedio" in 1948, for example. Morao does it in Mairena's "De los huertos de Murcia" but doesn't in Terremoto's bulería corta.
I just tried to check YouTube to see if Terremoto sings the B natural, but I see that the video's no longer available. It's been taken down "due to an infraction of the terms of use."
Just look what happens when we start talking about cante. Seriously, it's a shame, because somebody uploaded those videos for everyone to enjoy, and they were good, too.
I don't think it shows that. I agree that good guitarists are able to "hold it together," but what the old recordings show is that this cante has been going to B natural since the early 20th century and that it's taken guitarists decades to start playing E7. I may be wrong, but I think that, more often than not, guitarists used to just play B flat or C7 chords. It's grating to the ear and I find it surprising that nobody thought of playing an E7. For example, Eduardo de La Malena misses this cambio in the siguiriyas he recorded with Juan Talega (to B7) and in the soleá he did with María Peña for Rito y Geografía. He was an excellent accompanist, though, and he catches it in other recordings.
Well, the same "mistake" still occurs quite frequently is my point, though not on rehearsed-for modern recordings, I mean in live situations. I know what you mean about it sounding out of key, but I was going to add about the modal/tonal problem that Romerito beat me to. Modality and tonality are diametrically opposed, so with the singer singing modally, the guitarist struggles to stick harmonies where just a drone is better (there are no harmonies in modal music). In some cases, the "mistake" is not so bad because the singer releases the note pretty quick so the clash is not so bad. If the guitarist gets it great, if not, no big deal. Compas and resolution is the more important thing IMO, which is why those mistake are forgiveable and made it on recordings so frequently.
Paco did some cool things, and of course prepared things with Camaron, but he also made the same mistake we discuss here with Camaron. Just check those early recordings and you will hear it. To me it is not so much old vs new, but just a part of the art of accompanyment. When a singer holds a tone, it is signal to get a chord, and it always should come earlier in the compas than it needs to change. If singer flies through one of those notes, it was not a big deal to change the chord, and for sure the timing is so important, if you put that chord in a weird beat it is just...weird. Better to stay put until the next tone change.
Also some guitarists never went to the major chord in the second line of solea/buleria etc. They don't go to F major in other words, they stay on C7, and in some cases, like melchor, would go back to A tonic or just Bb I have heard too. Again, this all because of the MODAL thing Romerito mentioned. I don't, at this point, consider ANY of those to be wrong or right. Again, that is where you get into who's accomp style you prefer, and likewise a singer will have his prefered guitarist, even though maybe Moraito gets ALL the "right" tonos. A singer just wants to know the guitarist will be "there" for him and follow his wims. And that is why I will disagree with you guys about the letra too (meaning the lyrics). You still have to be attentive to the singer even if you THINK "I know how this letra goes because Caracol sang it like this....". The lyric is really secondary to the melodic and rhythmic cues the singer gives. IMO.
Oh yeah, here is the lost Terremoto...and look at the title of it this time!
Hey watching that again I thought of an other small detail that distinguishes solxbul from Solea por medio when accompanying. I mean this real minor and not something that is ALWAYS done, but just another detail. The last line of the letra, for solea there is often a double remate, like D-C-Bb, then Amajor arp for counts 4,5,6, then again for the other half of the compas, where as Bulerias por solea or solxbul you more often keep the Bb going until 10. Just a detail the gives a different feel to the accompaniment IMO.
In some cases, the "mistake" is not so bad because the singer releases the note pretty quick so the clash is not so bad.
Yeah, if we're still talking about the bulería corta, it happens at the end of the melodic line, at the end of the line of verse, and sometimes there's just a brief moment of dissonance. A lot of old singers don't even hit the #II (B natural por medio), like Caracol and Joselero.
But in recordings of Torre, Pastora, Cojo de Málaga and a few younger singers like Mairena, it's a well-defined melodic descent, D-C-B, with clear emphasis on the B, which sometimes results in a grating sensation, as I mentioned. Maybe it means more of a commitment for the accompanist, but I think the E7 is easy enough to work in, and I'd much rather hear that than the drone that you mentioned (although maybe not all the time).
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If singer flies through one of those notes, it was not a big deal to change the chord, and for sure the timing is so important, if you put that chord in a weird beat it is just...weird. Better to stay put until the next tone change.
Sometimes the #II is so clear that any other chord than an E7 sounds wrong, IMO, and, like I said, it doesn't seem to me that it's complicated to fit into the accompaniment. Listen to this clip of Torre and tell me if you don't think it'd be easy and much better sounding to strum into an E7 on the 10th beat: http://www.canteytoque.es/bulsolcortatorre3.mp3 (edited 9 December 2012 to update URL)
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The lyric is really secondary to the melodic and rhythmic cues the singer gives.
The melody certainly dictates what the guitar should be doing, so I'd agree with you there. But the singer is telling a story with the letra, and a guitarist will only accompany better if he understands it, IMO. That's a question of having a broader vision of the art form, but in more immediate terms, it's also useful to understand what's being said when singers stretch out vowels (vocalization, howling, grunting, etc. )
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You still have to be attentive to the singer even if you THINK "I know how this letra goes because Caracol sang it like this....".
Yeah, I agree with you there. I think a lot of singers are looking for new ways to use old letras, so you can't be too careful.
Sometimes the #II is so clear that any other chord than an E7 sounds wrong, IMO, and, like I said, it doesn't seem to me that it's complicated to fit into the accompaniment. Listen to this clip of Torre and tell me if you don't think it'd be easy and much better sounding to strum into an E7 on the 10th beat: http://www.ctv.es/USERS/norman/cortatorre3.mp3
Well, of course it would be BETTER, but easy? Now you are listening after the fact, but when you are playing it is different. That was pretty late to me, he hit the note on 9, the guitar COULD catch in one beat but he already had the other chord fingered before the rasgueado. I mean he would have had to know in advance. Some guys can guess that quick, and I often make a VERY educated guess, which is not far off from not guessing at all really, you planned it. But it can be dangerous. The safe way of modern player is put the chord later on 12. Honestly, I forgive this guy that was a close one. There are more obvious ones to me. And Torre cut the note off quick and kept moving the melody after that "wrong" chord accent. For me it is ok, I forgive.
And I know what you mean about the "story" behind a letra, and other clever things going on in the lyric. Sure it will help that you are familiar with all that stuff. You have to know Spanish well enough too to know that the line is repeating, etc. I am just pointing out you have to keep on your toes as accompanist and not second guess the singer because you are familiar with what he is about to sing.
You guys check out Potito's latest album (perhaps his last real flamenco album...hope not...). The album is nice for a modern recording, lots of familiar melodies AND lyrics.
There is a nice palo seco Solea that you guys can practice accompanying yourself. 8 arriba or 3 por medio. It is not slow, so you have to keep the speed up but the compas is clear because of percussion. Try that one out. A lot of it is easy and normal, but at the end (and I am already warning you), on your FIRST pass, you won't get that cambio (same mistake we are talking about E7 chord in por medio key or B7 in Arriba) in there and keep compas. Of if you do you are on a different level guys. Even second time you try you notice the problem with the compas, it is just not comfortable to keep it in there unless you let the percussion carry you and you just hold the chord. So sure you can work out a nice way to "walk" through and get the change, or do it BEFORE Potito, but that is NOT the way to accompany flamenco IMO. It is all about how you handle it on your FIRST try. And the real maestro singers won't do it the same way all the time so you can "get it".
Anyway if you don't have that recording, I will email you guys the mp3. Let me know how it goes and what you guys think.
Just a few more comments on this interesting thread. First though, thanks to Ricardo for drawing our attention to the videos in the first place and for posting a new link to the Terremoto clip. Also:
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This is really complex stuff and you guys know so much more than I'll ever begin to understand.
Nah, it's really a lot more simple than it seems. Some people prefer to make it seem more complicated than it really is. It's true what Romerito said, that "there is always more to learn, especially as an aficionado." But the way it all works and fits together isn't all that complicated. Once you get used to compás and become familiar with a few dozen melodies, it all makes a lot more sense. Some people take a very analytical approach to understanding flamenco and forget to simplify things when they talk about it. I'm not referring to anyone on this board, by the way.
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Well, of course it would be BETTER, but easy?
Yeah, because the first tercio of the bulería corta is very different from any other cante, except for the soleá Serneta 3, which is a pretty rare stye. By the sixth beat, it's pretty clear that it's going to be the bulería corta, and that's plenty of time to end it on E7. An upward single-nail strum from trebles to basses (rake) on beats 10-12 sounds particularly good and is not hard to pull off. In any case, I don't want to keep insisting on this point. The dissonance, when it happens, is brief, and, as I've said, not all singers hit that #II, so it's not that big a deal, but it sure seems to me like a big improvement. I'd try to push things that way.
It could also be considered that cante develops with the guitar, and maybe singers would sing the bulería corta a little differently today if guitarists had always gone to the E7. In fact, it is more common today to do it that way, and in more modern recordings the #II is more clearly defined, maybe because singers and guitarists are more familiar with this detail. Nonetheless, this "new" way of singing the bulería corta can be heard on those old recordings. What puzzles me is that those old singers insisted for decades on adding that B natural. Why not just make it a B flat? Caracol, Joselero and Borrico sidestep the issue beautifully by singing other notes, but others insist on the D-C-B descent.
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It is all about how you handle it on your FIRST try. And the real maestro singers won't do it the same way all the time so you can "get it".
As I've been saying, the singers who do hit the #II do it the same way on all their recordings. Maybe at some point during the 20th century, there started to be two different ways of singing the bulería corta, with and without the B natural, and guitarists preferred to avoid commiting to the E7.
Haven't got that Potito recording, but would like to hear it.
I wish there were more great examples like this to cut your teeth on. If I ever had the money to produce something, I would do a solo compas type of thing for guitarists and have 10-20 singers each sing their versions of specific letras/cantes. That'd be cool.
Thanks for the example.
yeah they are fun. I always try to find some good examples, because when the guitar is there it does not help. but alot of singers go a hair out of tune w/out the guitar reference, so you can't really use those. But you can find some good ones here and there. Poveda has a nice long buleria on that Qwaali disc, and stays in tune!
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maybe because singers and guitarists are more familiar with this detail. Nonetheless, this "new" way of singing the bulería corta can be heard on those old recordings.
yeah that I agree with, folks are more familiar with those details nowadays. I think the singers have to stick to the trad melody and not change for the sake of a "wrong" chord no matter what. Otherwise the singer looses ground as "the leader", and that to me is the real beauty and challenge of the whole accompanying thing. And that change of scale is real pretty on it's own, no guitar. I guess if the guitar doesn't make the change, he should just leave a space there, and come in later to "rematar". That can also be effective.
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Anyway, this has been bugging me. By corta do you mean the buleria that goes to that Bnat tono right away as oppose to resolving on dmin in first compas and then going to the bnat tono. In other words, a 3 compas buleria (without any repeats) as oppose to 6 compases?
No he is talking about that melody what I called one of the typical Bulerias por solea melodies, often sung for Solxbul. Meaning, even though sounds damn similar to bulerias, I don't associate it with BULERIES BULERIAS la verdad, like you just described. I know exactly what YOU mean, and he is refering to that melody Terremoto sings 2nd and 4th in that vid I just put up. It is real similar to bulerias and Norman has pointed out the specific title of that melody is "buleria corta" as opposed to the other simillar one that is called "larga". But at that tempo it really sounds not like bulerias as I think of it, but still I can see why they call it that.
Make sense???
Ricardo Hey Romerito, can you cut that last Potito letra and post it for Norman to hear? I can't do that on this computer.
Printable Version
Seriously, it's a shame, because somebody uploaded those videos for everyone to enjoy, and they were good, too. 
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