RE: When Kate's away, the mice will play...

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Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: When Kate's away, the mice will ... (in reply to zata)

quote:

There is no "flamenco version" of sevillanas any more than there is a "pop version" of siguiriya.

You can look at this 2 ways. Sevillanas is a regional dance, the gypsies adapted it to their repertoire so in a sense there is a "flamenco version"or at least a gypsy version. The Carlos Saura film highlights the distinction. I think it would be wrong to clasify Sevillana as a flamenco palo but equally wrong to ignore that the gypsies have their own way of performing it. After all, many palos are based on earlier non gypsy forms such as the Jota being adapted into Alegrias, verdiales to fandangos etc.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 24 2007 4:32:59

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: When Kate's away, the mice will ... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

quote:
Not all soleá de Alcalá is related to Joaquín de la Paula, nor is all soleá de Jerez related to Frijones. T
Exactly, isn't that why it would be good to learn both regional and personal names.

Just as an example, Juan Talega, in the RITO series says that Mairena made up the Alcala moniker. That his uncle (Joaquin de la Paula) was responsible for many of the cantes. I'd have to watch that particular episode again but I am sure he doesn't give any credit to the regional and seemed quite frustrated with Mairena's adoption of regional vs. personal.

Hi Romerito....what better way to spend pre-Christmas than talking about cante

.

Flamenco investigation has come a looooooong way since Rito and Mairena. Mairena's writing is mostly discredited nowadays, and Rito, while being an invaluable document, simply does not reflect recent findings, beliefs or discoveries. In general, singers (such as the wonderful Talega) cannot be trusted on factual or historical information beyond their own immediate families: "My dad used to sing that, so it's my dad's" is about the extent of their sources. That kind of testimony is also important, but must be taken in perspective. There are many many blatant errors in Rito, and another helping in Mundo y Formas.

Precisely regarding soleá de Alcalá, last year investigator Manuel Martín published the book “Alcalá de la Soleá: un museo abierto”, 615 pages about Alcalá cante, and while Joaquín de la Paula figures prominently, there’s much much more. That’s where you begin if you want to know about cante de Alcalá.

Joaquín de la Paula was Talega’s uncle as you say, so Talega wasn’t about to relinquish his family’s claim to these important cantes. Spanish flamenco artists are fiercely localist chauvinist.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 24 2007 4:52:23

Zorro02

Posts: 151
Joined: Feb. 23 2007

RE: What about a Sevilliana? (in reply to Zorro02)

Thanks to all who have contributed.

Admin... How did my initial thread end up with two titles?

It is certainly clear in my mind now what a Sevillana is and perhaps more importantly, what it's not. Thanks to all who have contributed. After considering all arguments I have decided to continue to include Sevillana in my flamenco repertoire.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 24 2007 5:01:09

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: When Kate's away, the mice will ... (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

Sevillanas is a regional dance, the gypsies adapted it to their repertoire

??? Can you give examples of what you consider the "gypsy version"? I've been to countless fiestas in a range of Andalusian provinces, *including Sevilla*, and not heard or seen sevillanas at any of them. Sevillanas are what you see at ferias. Night falls at a Spanish feria, the last of the sevillanas people go home by 2 or 3, and then the flamencos take over the casetas. It's a whole different social group, even though anyone might dance sevillanas at a given moment...just like they might dance the Macarena, or the twist if you put on Chubby Checker.

Saura's movie contains a lot of fantasy. For example Lola Flores inventing her own sevillanas choreography, struggling to make it look as flamenco as possible. I guess Saura asked her to do that, but sevillanas is still danced in the conventional way.

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Estela Zatania
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 24 2007 5:04:43

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: When Kate's away, the mice will ... (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

After all, many palos are based on earlier non gypsy forms such as the Jota being adapted into Alegrias, verdiales to fandangos etc.

*All* flamenco forms are derived from folk forms one way or another. It's a long, slow process.

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Estela Zatania
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 24 2007 5:08:19

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to zata)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 24 2007 5:30:03

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: What about a Sevilliana? (in reply to zata)

quote:

I haven't come across any flamenco in Spain who calls sevillanas "flamenco"...the very sound of that sentence is comical.

In Rito, El Pali seems to think of his "sevillanas" as "cante flamenco" or at least part of it. Not saying I AGREE with him, and obviously that was why the interviewers asked him what he felt other flamencos thought of his "cante", but my point is... HE IS SPANISH!

quote:

Actually, no. "Fandangos personales", as the name suggests, refers to the fact that

Yes you are right, but I correct that one in a later post with "naturales". It had slipped my mind at the time I typed that.

quote:

The chronology is skewed.

Regarding pre 1900's stuff not recorded, what is the proof of chronology? Or rather, if Verdiales came BEFORE Fandangos from the Huelva region, why do they call it "fangangos" at all, and where did the first "fandangos" orginate, and how could anyone prove that????

quote:

There are many many blatant errors in Rito, and another helping in Mundo y Formas.

Precisely regarding soleá de Alcalá, last year investigator Manuel Martín published the book

Hey wait a minute, was that Manuel Martin martin, the SAME guy Morente just wrote that letter to, and all those top flamencos sighned, saying he was an idiot???

And we should believe HIS book over the Rito VIDEO and MAIRENA????

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 24 2007 7:11:22

Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 24 2007 7:15:20

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: What about a Sevilliana? (in reply to Guest)

quote:

Just because he is a purist and resistant to change doesn't mean one can't learn from him.

But that is not why Morente wrote him.

Actually, yeah, we could all end up DUMBER after reading his book!

Ok that was just a joke!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 24 2007 7:20:08

Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 24 2007 7:24:24

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: What about a Sevilliana? (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

"" I haven't come across any flamenco in Spain who calls sevillanas "flamenco"...the very sound of that sentence is comical. ""

In Rito, El Pali seems to think of his "sevillanas" as "cante flamenco" or at least part of it. Not saying I AGREE with him, and obviously that was why the interviewers asked him what he felt other flamencos thought of his "cante", but my point is... HE IS SPANISH! [:

I wrote: "I haven't come across any *flamenco* in Spain who calls sevillanas "flamenco". Pali was not a flamenco by anyone's definition. Generally speaking, sevillanas people are happy to be associated flamenco, possibly because it seems to add legitimacy (?)

(I'm definitely not receiving notification when people answer, is there an option somewhere that needs to be configured?)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 27 2007 1:13:11

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: What about a Sevilliana? (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

"" The chronology is skewed. ""

Regarding pre 1900's stuff not recorded, what is the proof of chronology? Or rather, if Verdiales came BEFORE Fandangos from the Huelva region, why do they call it "fangangos" at all, and where did the first "fandangos" orginate, and how could anyone prove that????

No need to refer to pre 1900, the fandango era begins and ends squarely within modern times, while many forms of the fandango family go much further back and are even mentioned in written accounts. And then there's Padre Soler's "fandango" from the 1700's.

Fandango de Huelva is just another form of fandango...as are verdiales. The first fandangos are believed to have been abandolao forms derived from Moorish music, I've never seen or heard any divergent theories (but I haven't investigated the topic either).

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 27 2007 1:22:15

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: What about a Sevilliana? (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

"" There are many many blatant errors in Rito, and another helping in Mundo y Formas.

Precisely regarding soleá de Alcalá, last year investigator Manuel Martín published the book ""

Hey wait a minute, was that Manuel Martin martin, the SAME guy Morente just wrote that letter to, and all those top flamencos sighned, saying he was an idiot???

And we should believe HIS book over the Rito VIDEO and MAIRENA????

If you read the original Spanish letter, no one called Manuel Martín an "idiot". Morente and co-signers were protesting what they consider overly critical comments...which for most of us translates into, Manuel Martin had the balls to say what he truly believed, regardless of whether or not you agree with him. Artists protesting negative reviews is not a new phenomenon.

Mairena's writings are generally discredited in this country, and Rito is a valuable historical document...with the accent on *historical*. Both items are four decades old.

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Estela Zatania
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 27 2007 1:28:28

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: What about a Sevilliana? (in reply to Guest)

quote:

Just because he is a purist and resistant to change doesn't mean one can't learn from him.

Manuel Martín Martín is a critic and investigator. Artists protested his negative criticism. As *investigator*, he is beyond any doubt the most respected in the country, along with Luis Soler. His data is considered unquestionable. Incidentally, he (and many others) aggressively defend Mairena's singing, if not his writings.

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Estela Zatania
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 27 2007 1:34:40

Guest

RE: What about a Sevilliana? (in reply to zata)

Hola

Estela is right. Martin Martin is not a purist, he is a highly regarded critic and expert. He has said publicly that la hija de Morente does not know how to sing flamenco. This is akin to saying that the emperor has no clothes: everybody knows it but nobody has the cojones to say it. And everybody knows what Morante is, especially if they have had the "good" fortune to work with him.

This is a guitar forum. If there are half a dozen people here who understand cante sufficiently to understand what Martin Martin is saying, it would surprise me.

Seán

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 27 2007 1:43:42

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: What about a Sevilliana? (in reply to Guest)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sean
This is a guitar forum.

Err.... yes and no. Or maybe mostly. I'm a dancer and there are a few others about.

But you are right we don't have many threads about cante and I wish we did. The song is so important and it's a bit the Foro is really missing. It's also the part I feel most ignorance about.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 27 2007 1:53:29

Guest

RE: What about a Sevilliana? (in reply to Ailsa)

Sorry Ailsa,but dance is treated on this forum with the same ignorance as cante.

Here is a review of a performance of Estrella (NOT by Martin Martin)

Con un repertorio similar al de sus actuaciones de los últimos dos años, Estrella Morente se presentó el pasado viernes en el Auditorio del Museo Picasso Málaga.
Es evidente que Estrella ha creado su público, un público no entendido en flamenco, aunque no contrario al mismo. Y es que el verdaderamente entendido no acude a escucharla, pues ya sabe que no va a encontrar la profundidad mínima exigible a un cantaor, según el concepto canónico.
Podríamos decir que el espectáculo constó de dos partes bien diferenciadas: una primera flamenca, en la que Estrella volvió a destacar por esa forma ‘acancionada’ de interpretar los palos, excediéndose en adornos vacíos que alargan y desvirtúan los cantes, entregándose más a la forma que a la pasión y hondura que pide el flamenco. Esta parte constó de alegrías, tangos, soleá y tarantas y, como muestra de lo que decíamos del público, éste estuvo frío, callado, quizá nos atrevemos a decir que estaba soportando esa parte que Estrella se empeña en incluir en su programa, esperando anhelantes el momento en que la granadina cambiase el registro.
Una deslumbrante Estrella interpretó soberbiamente el tango argentino ‘Nostalgia’ e, inmediatamente, se metió a los espectadores en el bolsillo, marcando un antes y un después en el espectáculo. Cuando canta estas canciones es capaz de conseguir lo que no consigue cantando flamenco: emocionar. Su afinación, que deja qué desear cuando se afana en alargar los melismas de un palo, es perfecta en este terreno y su dramatización, muchas veces afectada y grotesca en lo que al flamenco se refiere, es aquí un elemento más en el que poder demostrar su valía como artista. Y en este punto es cuando el público encuentra lo que ha venido a ver.
Después, su grupo cantó muy bien y muy ortodoxamente por bulerías, abonando el terreno para la interpretación del tema de su último disco ‘Si yo encontrara una estrella’ que terminó de inspirarla para, a mi entender, abordar lo mejor de la noche: unos cuplés por bulerías donde se despojó de tanta parafernalia vocal y tanto adorno superfluo y, llena de duende, dedicó a su marido una interpretación de la copla ‘Madrina’ que estremeció al auditorio y lo puso en pie. Tras una larga ovación, con entrega de ramo de flores incluida, se despidió con ‘Volver’, plena, radiante, dejando contentos a los más exigentes y a sus incondicionales, totalmente seducidos e hipnotizados.

Lourdes Gálvez del Postigo
Diario Málaga Hoy 02/12/07

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 27 2007 1:57:28

Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: What about a Sevilliana? (in reply to Guest)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sean
This is a guitar forum. If there are half a dozen people here who understand cante sufficiently to understand what Martin Martin is saying, it would surprise me.

Seán

Hi Sean, nice to see you posting, can we have some more threads on cante please !!

Not that its about cante but I have a question about Bolero, cant find anything anywhere apart from wikipedia which says it is derived from a Sevillana. Any one know of any recorded Boleros.

Kate

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 27 2007 2:06:30

Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: What about a Sevilliana? (in reply to Guest)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sean
And everybody knows what Morante is, especially if they have had the "good" fortune to work with him.

Kate

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 27 2007 2:11:58

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: What about a Sevilliana? (in reply to Guest)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sean
Sorry Ailsa,but dance is treated on this forum with the same ignorance as cante.

Well this isn't a solo guitarists Forum, it's a flamenco forum. And to do flamenco we all have to work together and understand something about each other's art, no? Well that's where I'm coming from anyway. (And not to bring up old arguments but it's why I get cross when I feel guitarists dismiss accompanying as some sort of second rate activity.)

The guitarists course I'm organising at the moment is specifically about how guitarists and dancers can work together, and what sort of information they each need to make the accompaniment work. I've suggested we should run another course on how to accompany cante. Don't know whether that will happen yet, but I think it would have value.

I'm not sure if it's true that cante is treated with ignorance, more sort of ...... completely ignored!

But I'm interested! I'm listening! Tell me where to start and I'll go for it. I'm a good student Sean!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 27 2007 2:15:49

Jan Willem

Posts: 274
Joined: Feb. 21 2007
From: Belgium Halle

RE: When Kate's away, the mice will ... (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

He has said publicly that la hija de Morente does not know how to sing flamenco. This is akin to saying that the emperor has no clothes: everybody knows it but nobody has the cojones to say it. And everybody knows what Morante is, especially if they have had the "good" fortune to work with him.

This is a guitar forum. If there are half a dozen people here who understand cante sufficiently to understand what Martin Martin is saying, it would surprise me.

Could you please explain a bit further about Morente? I'm very interested actually

. Are you saying that Morente doesn't know how to sing flamenco according to Martin Martin? What is your opinion about that? (I know he isn't a gispy...)?

THX

JW

It's true that canté and baile should come up more.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 27 2007 2:32:04

Guest

RE: When Kate's away, the mice will ... (in reply to Jan Willem)

La hija de Morante is Estrella. Martín Martín was referring to her.

Seán

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 27 2007 2:49:38

Guest

RE: What about a Sevilliana? (in reply to Kate)

quote:

Any one know of any recorded Boleros.

Try Los Panchos

Seán

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 27 2007 2:51:53

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

Cante recommendations please? (in reply to Guest)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sean
La hija de Morante is Estrella. Martín Martín was referring to her.

I've heard other people say that about Estrella - that she has a beautiful voice, but not really 'flamenco' - though when a voice sounds flamenco going to be one of those indefinable things isn't it?

I've been listening to lots of old cante recordings at home over the last few days. I've no idea whether you would call these voices 'flamenco' or not, but they feel real. Atm I've got on Juan Osuna, also got some stuff by Pansequito, Calixto Sanchez, Manuel Gerena and El Loreno. On the more modern side I got the latest Miguel Poveda for Christmas.

Anyone got any other cante recommendations?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 27 2007 3:05:51

Guest

RE: Cante recommendations please? (in reply to Ailsa)

Hola Ailsa

A great deal of what is sung nowadays is based on the cante of Tomás Pavón. This is very important. There are so many others, especially if you prefer to regionalise, but Antonio Mairena has recorded an encyclopedia of cante.

Suerte

Seán

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 27 2007 3:17:00

Jan Willem

Posts: 274
Joined: Feb. 21 2007
From: Belgium Halle

RE: When Kate's away, the mice will ... (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

La hija de Morante is Estrella. Martín Martín was referring to her.

That I know.

Thx ailsa you answered my question. Being a noob in flamenco it isn't easy to find your way into canté...

jw

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 27 2007 3:19:14

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: Cante recommendations please? (in reply to Guest)

Thanks Sean - I recognised that name Antonio Mairena so went to look through my admittedly small collection. I found an old vinyl album by him - La Llave de Oro del Cante Flamenco. That's 12 tracks I can listen to for a start anyway.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 27 2007 3:25:43

Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: Cante recommendations please? (in reply to Ailsa)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ailsa
Anyone got any other cante recommendations?

EMI released a CD called 100 años de Flamenco. It has 41 tracks including Tomás Pavon, La Niña de los Peines, Antonio Mairena, Fernanda and Bernanda de Utrera, Manol Caracol, Terremoto de Jerez, Carmen Amaya, Perla de Cadiz, Chocolate and many more.

Kate

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 27 2007 3:26:04

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: Cante recommendations please? (in reply to Kate)

quote:

100 años de Flamenco

Hey and it's cheap too - 2 CDs for 15,90 euros on flamenco-world! I feel a birthday list coming on and it's only Boxing Day

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 27 2007 3:28:52

Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: Cante recommendations please? (in reply to Ailsa)

check on deflamenco as well they charge less for postage than flamenco world.
Early happy birthday !!!
Kate

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 27 2007 3:37:03