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Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England
RE: Sevillanas thread or is it Fanda... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo If you have all the answers and resources already, why start up the discussion?
Tetchy!! And the answer is so that non-lurking noobies like me can learn stuff. Which I did in shedloads, so thanks for this discussion guys. Yes I do make serious posts sometimes.
Speaking of which, being new and ignorant, I don't know what the Rito is that you refer to - can you enlighten me please?
Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía
RE: Sevillanas thread or is it Fanda... (in reply to Ailsa)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ailsa Speaking of which, being new and ignorant, I don't know what the Rito is that you refer to - can you enlighten me please?
Hi Ailsa, They are a series of films made in the Franco era for National Television. Here's a link to the Baile collection ( 12 dvds) https://www.deflamenco.com/tiendaflamenco/veri.jsp?cod=1427 There is also a cante collection and a toque collection ( 4 CDs)
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: When Kate's away, the mice will ... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
[ Sorry, but yes I am serious. Rumberos are NOT NECESSARILY flamencos. Manzanita is not flamenco because he does rumba. It is because he also has done solea, bulerias etc. Gypsy Kings are NOT flamenco singers. Parrita is great, but I am not so quick to call him a flamenco singer. I hoped it would be clear Mark, my point that you will find people only playing rumba, sevillanas, or even Fandango, that are NOT flamencos ESPECIALLY by their own standards. When a flamenco artists DOES one of those styles, sure you can say it is "flamenco". So it is all about WHO the interpreter is. Ottmar Leibert's bulerias... flamenco or not? In the end it is all about taste again. Just because you are spanish, and gypsy, and sing, does not mean you are a flamenco.
[quote[
True, rumberos are not always flamencos. That's not the point. I'm talking about the form, not the interpreter. As you said, even some things called bulerias are not flamenco. I agree the interpreter is essential, but then you could claim nothing is flamenco unless the interpreter has the aire. Fine, but that also leads to the conclusion that anything can be flamenco in the right hands, and that I don't agree with despite some flamencos claims to the contrary. If Paco plays a jazz standard, that ain't flamenco. So, if your going to say that tango is flamenco, then so is rumba. Unless of course it is performed by someone who doesn't give it the aire. As opposed to sevillanas, which is never flamenco, even when sung by Camaron. Clear as mud.
Man...it don't take much to get a fight a-goin' these days!
What I interpreted Ricardo to be saying is that there are Rumba "specialistas" and Fandango "specialistas" and Sevillanas "specialistas" who concentrate on maybe even just one of those forms and do no others. "Flamencos", on the other hand, take in the whole spectrum of Flamenco palos as well as having a knowledge of those forms as well.
What's the big fight about?
cheers,
Ron
_____________________________
A good guitar might be a good guitar But it takes a woman to break your heart
Man...it don't take much to get a fight a-goin' these days!
What I interpreted Ricardo to be saying is that there are Rumba "specialistas" and Fandango "specialistas" and Sevillanas "specialistas" who concentrate on maybe even just one of those forms and do no others. "Flamencos", on the other hand, take in the whole spectrum of Flamenco palos as well as having a knowledge of those forms as well.
What's the big fight about?
cheers,
Ron
no fight here either-just a friendly discussion. Having said that can't agree with you Ron as there are flamencos who only do two or three forms, including those flamencos who specialize in rumba/bulerias/tangos. People who specialize in sevillanas, on the other hand, are not flamencos.
Good answer Kevin......the foro is great for a lot of things I will have to admit......and you can't just play the guitar without useful information....we have to go by our sources no matter where they are. It's that edge that we are always looking for. You've got to search for it wether you go to a teacher, books, or other guitarists, or even in cross training with other instruments.
You have to take each day by day, step by step, but not every word for word! That's just it. You go figure, not everything is right because it is said. That's what makes the foro interesting. And you know, a lot of things are like that. It's a fact of life. We really must think for ourselves.
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: When Kate's away, the mice will ... (in reply to Mark2)
quote:
So, if your going to say that tango is flamenco, then so is rumba. Unless of course it is performed by someone who doesn't give it the aire. As opposed to sevillanas, which is never flamenco, even when sung by Camaron. Clear as mud.
In the movie "sevillanas" by Saura, the point was to show many different groups performing Sevillanas, including the "flamencos" and the "gitanos". I think it is a taste issue if you want to claim Rumbas by camaron are flamenco, but his sevillanas are not. My point is that they are both in the "ify" category along with fandangos, Villancicos, etc. Point being the "aire" issue. Rumberos do rumba with the right "aire" for sure, but are not flamencos. That is why I would put them in the same group with folks that only do Sevillanas. I don't consider Tangos and Rumba to have the same compas feeling. Tangos for sure is more "flamenco" than rumba.
As far as PDL doing jazz standard, OK. But what about Juan Serrano's "autum leaves"? It was for sure a bulerias, he just made it flamenco. So again, the interpreter is the thing that will make it flamenco or not...and what makes something flamenco or not depends once again on taste. But you don't usually find people who ONLY DO Solea, or siguiriyas, or bulerias (all with proper aire), that are considered NOT flamencos. Personally I say, yes Ottmar plays bulerias and that IS flamenco. It is just that it is "bad". Gipsy Kings play good rumba, but it is not flamenco. Some use the term "flamenco" not to categorize music, but to say something about the taste of the music, and that confuses things (like you seem to think if the "aire" is not there, it is not a flamenco form?). We all draw our own lines when it comes to taste. My earlier comments trying to explain why Sevillanas or Rumba may not be considered flamenco, are ignoring the taste thing.
quote:
I don't know what the Rito is that you refer to
I mean RITO Y GEOGRAFIA DEL CANTE FLAMENCO. The other series mentioned, Baile and Toque, actually are mixed programs pulled from spanish tv including parts of the Rito program regarding cante. The Cante program only is what I was refering to and recommed for those interested in these topics regarding cante evolutions, definitions, categories, terminology, etc. The latest versions are really cleaned up DVD picture and audio, with subtitles and booklets that give even more trivia.
quote:
Oops. I concede. You know more than me. Forget Pedro who has played for Mario Maya, Sara Lezana, Guito and a long list of others. Forget Chus, born in Almeria, raised in Granada, studied with many greats in Granada and abroad and still accompanies or has accompanied some of the greats on occasion including Yerbabuena. They are mere mortals.
I want to study with you .
Whatever man. Sorry I tried to help.
Oh yeah, and after all my blabbing about fandangos, I forgot that the most common term used for the free style flandangos with no compas is not "personales" actually, they use the term "naturales" usually. But Rito does not even use the term "naturales" except in passing. They were bent on the point about personal creations based on the structure formed in Huelva.
So, not like anyone cares at this point, it is still interesting to me. Time to put "fandango grande" to bed...and me too.
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: When Kate's away, the mice will ... (in reply to Ricardo)
I apreciate your response. I haven't heard Juan's Autum leaves or Ottmar's bulerias, so I can't express an opinion. The only difference of opinion I really have is when you have a group like Casta. I have a cd called "I am gypsy" or something like that. It's all rumbas, done very well. Sounds just like any modern flamenco doing rumba. I don't know if the performers do the other stuff, too, but the record is all rumba and sounds like flamenco to me. I would consider those guys flamencos-it seems clear they could do the other stuff no matter if they do or not. I would also consider Camaron doing rumba flamenco. GK's rumbas, on the other hand, which I also really like, don't sound like flamenco to me. I thought it was you who expressed that if it didn't have the aire, it wasn't the form by stating that it is the interpreter who determines if something is flamenco or not. I think there's a lot of validity in that idea, but absolutes are hard to come by in flamenco. I just found your opinion about rumba interesting, in that I haven't heard anyone else classify "real"(ie: Camaron as opposed to Ottmar) rumba as "iffy"
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
In the movie "sevillanas" by Saura, the point was to show many different groups performing Sevillanas, including the "flamencos" and the "gitanos". I think it is a taste issue if you want to claim Rumbas by camaron are flamenco, but his sevillanas are not. My point is that they are both in the "ify" category along with fandangos, Villancicos, etc. Point being the "aire" issue. Rumberos do rumba with the right "aire" for sure, but are not flamencos. That is why I would put them in the same group with folks that only do Sevillanas. I don't consider Tangos and Rumba to have the same compas feeling. Tangos for sure is more "flamenco" than rumba.
As far as PDL doing jazz standard, OK. But what about Juan Serrano's "autum leaves"? It was for sure a bulerias, he just made it flamenco. So again, the interpreter is the thing that will make it flamenco or not...and what makes something flamenco or not depends once again on taste. But you don't usually find people who ONLY DO Solea, or siguiriyas, or bulerias (all with proper aire), that are considered NOT flamencos. Personally I say, yes Ottmar plays bulerias and that IS flamenco. It is just that it is "bad". Gipsy Kings play good rumba, but it is not flamenco. Some use the term "flamenco" not to categorize music, but to say something about the taste of the music, and that confuses things (like you seem to think if the "aire" is not there, it is not a flamenco form?). We all draw our own lines when it comes to taste. My earlier comments trying to explain why Sevillanas or Rumba may not be considered flamenco, are ignoring the taste thing.
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: When Kate's away, the mice will ... (in reply to Mark2)
quote:
I apreciate your response.
And I yours, and I totally know what you are saying. Just trying to clearify where I am coming from.
quote:
towards answering my fandango questions: muchas gracias,
As if you hadn't had enough, here is something for the fandango nerds. Just a few different fandangos from huelva sung back to back, by a not-so-nerdy- chick, who really does "know it all" it seems:
Compare those to these fandango naturales, or rather her own personal take on two "personales" type fandangos. The first "personal style" being Caracol's style, the second, Niño de Gloria.
Notice how the first vid could be very folkloric, but the second very flamenco for sure. Ricardo
RE: What about a Sevilliana? (in reply to Estevan)
One of the things you notice when you listen a lot to fandangos de Huelva is that some of the local variacions have their chord change directly on the strong beat, whereas some others have it on the beat before. The first ones sound a lot more folcloric than the seconds. If you listen to El Cabrero, he is also very folcloric.
By the way, the whole FdH thing is in general called por Huelva. and I dont mind the folcloric part of some. A good fandango is a good fandango.
To the second video I can only say. Vive la Paquera y Parilla. what a combo. Jerez puro y duro. Cojones tio
RE: When Kate's away, the mice will ... (in reply to Guest)
quote:
Fandangos (libres or Grandes), Fandangos de Huelva (Fandanguillos). Pohren (RIP) was responsible for bringing some of these names to light
Romerito, so sorry to have given the impression of ignoring your message, I must not have ticked the box to be advised of responses.
There’s no problem differentiating which fandangos a singer wants to do, it’s all in the context. When Agujetas is doing a recital and says “fandangos”, you know he’s not going to sing fandango de Huelva or fandango abandolao because he never sings either. Arcángel will always be referring to Huelva. In a dance show, it will be Huelva or abandolao, and so on…
“Fandango grande” is a label only used by foreigners and which sounds silly to Spaniards (although teachers exposed to foreigners quickly pick it up). Nor does “fandanguillo” mean fandango de Huelva. These are names invented by non-Spaniards in an effort to sort out what may seem like a confusing art-form, like when foreigners believe taranto, ending in ‘o’ is just a taranta set to rhythm.
Dear Don Pohren was not a liar, nor have times changed, nor was he mistaken, nor was this ever a regional or local term. Don Pohren wrote in English and did his best to label cantes that may not have had adequate names in Spanish, or were too difficult to describe without audio examples. In this sense “fandango grande” is English for “fandango libre” o “fandango natural”. The term is meaningless in Spanish. A similar but reverse phenomenon occurs frequently in Spanish when English-sounding words are adopted, and Spaniards are convinced they exist in English, such as “footing” to mean “jogging”. Try tell a Spaniard there is no such thing as “footing” in the English language! Don also simplified the task of differentiating between taranto and taranta by saying, quite rightly, that taranto *can* be set to compás. Generations of foreigners have since extrapolated, erroneously, that a taranta magically turns into a taranto when set to compás, but in actual fact, they are separate and distinct cantes (a bit like caña and polo), both free of compás.
To refer to the absence of a steady rhythm, depending on the context, you can say “fandangos naturales”, “fandangos personales”, “fandango libre” or simply “fandangos”.
RE: What about a Sevilliana? (in reply to andresito)
quote:
Why is it that flamenco fans say 'No, Sevillanas aren't flamenco' but nearly every great flamenco guitarist has one on at least one of their albums?
Paco recorded Falla, is the Three-Cornered Hat now officially a "palo"? Great flamenco guitarists also occasionally play the Happy Birthday song...does that mean it's flamenco too?
RE: What about a Sevilliana? (in reply to Zorro02)
quote:
he is not the only one gulity of having the audacity to include a Sevillana in their student books
Think. Who buys "student books"? Spaniards don't, (especially not if they're written in English!). So that leaves non-Spaniards, all of whom regularly confuse sevillanas with flamenco.
What I interpreted Ricardo to be saying is that there are Rumba "specialistas" and Fandango "specialistas" and Sevillanas "specialistas" who concentrate on maybe even just one of those forms and do no others. "Flamencos", on the other hand, take in the whole spectrum of Flamenco palos as well as having a knowledge of those forms as well.
I haven't come across any flamenco in Spain who calls sevillanas "flamenco"...the very sound of that sentence is comical. On Friday I was at a fiesta here in Jerez with some very flamenco flamenco people, and they surprised me a one point singing sevillanas. In a hundred million years would it have occurred to anyone to ask if sevillanas, therefore, are flamenco.
RE: When Kate's away, the mice will ... (in reply to Guest)
quote:
I almost don't play Sevillanas because they are folklore and aren't AS interesting TO ME as many other palos are. But I think the point is that most people that get involved in Flamenco learn about the "Flamenco" version of Sevillanas as opposed to Boleras or the others.
Most of the population in Andalucía, and many northern Spaniards, including flamencos from all over the country, enjoy and do sevillanas. The costumes can be similarly colorful and a guitar is usually employed. The similarity stops there.
There is no "flamenco version" of sevillanas any more than there is a "pop version" of siguiriya. They are separate and distinct animals.
RE: When Kate's away, the mice will ... (in reply to Florian)
quote:
its not the forreigners that are missunderstanding, is Spanish that are misscomunicating the point.
Let's not be naive. No commercial enterprise is in the business of cultural education. If buyers (or students) think sevillanas is flamenco and are willing to pay money for it, stores and teachers are not about to dissuade them.
quote:
however you cannot call yourself a flamenco guitarist unless you can play, sevillanas, fandangos de huelva, malaguena etc.
The fandango family of cantes has an impeccable bloodline, no one puts its flamenco identity in question, although we do usually distinguish between "cante gitano" and "cante andaluz", misleading terms that are currently popular.
Flamenco guitarists in a certain context may need to know sevillanas, but it's certainly never heard in the barrio Santiago for example, purported birthplace of flamenco (not documented). In Seville province it's a must however. Context and geography are usually are the heart of most seemingly confusing issues in flamenco.
RE: When Kate's away, the mice will ... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Fandangos Personales is the PROPER term.
Actually, no. "Fandangos personales", as the name suggests, refers to the fact that these are recent personal creations as opposed to traditional melodies. While the majority of fandangos personales are sung free-form, there are plenty, and even some malagueñas, that are always done to rhythm, either abandolao or Huelva, Manuel Vallejo's and Gloria's very famous fandangos being the most glaring examples of rhythmic "fandangos personales".
quote:
As the "fandangos personales" spread out, (according to Rito), in other regions, they picked up the other names, Malagueña, Granaina, Minera, Taranto, Taranto, Fandango minero, levantica, etc, etc, pesonal, based on fandango from huelva, but now focused on a location.
The chronology is skewed. Malagueña, granaína, taranta, etc. mostly came into being before 1900, while fandangos personales, with or without rhythm, are much more modern.
RE: When Kate's away, the mice will ... (in reply to Guest)
quote:
As for personales, it is a good idea to learn cantes (soleares, fandangos-whatever) by both their PERSONAL NAME and REGIONAL. The Solea de Alcala is tied to Joaquin de la Paula, Jerez to Frijones, etc.
Hmm.... That doesn't work for soleá and siguiriya. Not all soleá de Alcalá is related to Joaquín de la Paula, nor is all soleá de Jerez related to Frijones. The forms can be grouped, first geographically, and then, according to the attributed creator (although such attributions are nearly always shaky and depend a great deal on faith, legend and family tradition). For the casual aficionado it's probably best to learn to distinguish regional differences - even experts don't agree on a lot of personal name attributions.
RE: When Kate's away, the mice will ... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
All the fandangos are from Huelva (unless personalized by someone outside),
There is a huge branch of fandangos from Eastern Andalucía that are neither 'personales' nor from Huelva: the abandolao family, probably the oldest and most numerous group of fandangos. Fandango de Lucena, de Granada or Almería are the most ubiquitous forms, but there are many others. Fosforito popularized fandango abandolao, but it was thanks to the Toronjo brothers that Huelva style fandangos became so well-known that today many people think all fandangos are from Huelva.
Many Spanish aficionados call the abandolao forms "Levante", although they are not accompanied in the customary taranto position, and are never free-form.
If a fandango sounds like verdiales, it's abandolao and is not from Huelva.
RE: When Kate's away, the mice will ... (in reply to Mark2)
quote:
Your not serious about rumba not being flamenco? I'm sure you know many Spanish gitanos do almost nothing but bulerias, tangos, and rumba. Manzanita not flamenco? And the line between tango and rumba has become very blurry. I'm sure you wouldn't regulate tangos to that status.
Yes, rumba has always been considered a flamenco "palo" (even before we used to use the word "palo"). Around the early 1900's rumba was a sweet, major-key ditty cultivated especially in Cádiz. But around the 1940's, the Gracia neighborhood of Barcelona came up with rumba catalana, the hard-driving slap-thump form popularized by Pescaílla, Lola Flores' husband, and later by Peret, also from Catalonia. The form took Spain by storm, seducing the general public, and working its way into the world's pop music. Then came Bambino, who gave yet another spin to rumba, and the Grecas, and so on...between one thing and another, rumba now belongs to the world, although it never lost its flamenco calling card.
Verdiales, which normally is NOT considered flamenco but folk music.
There are flamenco verdiales (danced with shoes and accompanied with guitar only), and folk verdiales (danced with slippers or barefoot, and accompanied by violin, bandurria and guitar).
You rarely see flamenco verdiales any more, but they used to be a mainstay in every dance company's repertoire, and they sometimes used to be ended with "malagueña de baile".
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