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RE: Scandalous Poll
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[Poll]
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Scandalous Poll
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| Yes, they're great! |
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| No, I hate them! I would rather listen to Ottmar! |
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| I like some songs |
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| I like Tonino |
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Total Votes : 18
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(last vote on : Jul. 21 2013 6:41:21)
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tanolonco
Posts: 18
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
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 RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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Miguel: I do not recall me saying what folks SHOULD listen to, and I do recall me saying that the group who calls themselves the Gypsy Kings obviously have a fan base and for those who like that type of music, then it is right for them. Please go back and read my posts.
My point is that their music is not what most would call true flamenco and if the label of their music is called Mr. Potato Head jig music, does it make it less important to those who like it? No. I did state, emphatically and I will stand by that statement, is that if a person wants to listen to flamenco (and not rumba or polka, etc.) then listen and support those who play the puro forms.
By the way, I am rather puzzled by the tone of your reply. I stated an opinion. I did NOT dictate what folks should listen to, and I did NOT state that a person liking the GK was less than a person liking the puro forms. Here is what you wrote in the starter:
"have cast the first stone. I posted about their new album, which actually has flamenco on it, and I have decided that I like it a lot. Maybe they are the Britney Spears of flamenco, but so be it."
Analyzing your statement: "which actually has flamenco on it" it is very easy to draw the conclusion that you believe their music, at least historically, is non flamenco. And then relating them to Britney Spears I guess implies you believe them to be what many people believe Britney's music to be: fluff and "factory produced". Your statement could easily be interpreted as perjorative.
In reading your other posts, you state that puro flamenco is a myth (does this mean Sabicas and Nino are imaginary people?) which seems to be a very hard and fast. And then we have your statement: "Also, don't we have a rule here not to talk about flamenco puro? It's a distasteful and erroneous argument to make.statement that is not readily supported by facts."
Miguel, before you pass judgement on others, please do a favor to all and clearly understand what others have said and what you have said.
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Date Mar. 27 2004 12:40:12
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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Tano, I guess you didn't read my posts that well. You were just looking for evidence to back up what you already thought. That's pretty normal. I said that one of our earlier forums, that the founding people of this site came from, disintegrated precisely because of a "puro" discussion. In fact the person most directly responsible for the breakup of the forum had a name of "flamencopurista." After each post he would tag on "Viva flamenco puro!" He was very disrespectful of anything he did not consider puro. A very condescending and silly man from Canada. I got very emotional when I read your initial post because it brought back bad memories of this time. You see, this forum is very important to me and many of us because a lot of us don't get to hang around flamencos.
While of course I am stating my own opinions and don't presume to speak for Simon, Ron, Florian, etc., when we started this forum, it is my understanding that the whole "flamenco puro" issue was pretty much off limits. It's just too incendiary. Also, we were supposed to be polite to each other, a line which I fear I have stepped over a bit. I apologize for that.
But telling other people on this forum they should listen to a certain type of music and not another is, in my opinion, totally out of line. This is not a democracy, this is a pub! And if you say something off limits in a pub, people can throw beer at you. The environment we go for here is intimate, fun, and it comes off really bad when someone with 11 posts sits down and tells us who we should support with the money that we earn. Why don't you lay low for awhile?
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Date Mar. 27 2004 15:35:14
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tanolonco
Posts: 18
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
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RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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Miguel: I have indeed read your posts and again I state that I have in no way dictated what people should or should not believe. I have stated my opinion. I have in no way dictated that puro is the only way to go. And in no way did I say folks should only listen or support one type of music. What I have stated is to call something what it is. If I call something fluff, that is my opinion. What I take exception to is someone telling me that I cannot voice an opinion--or should not (regardless of the popularity of said opinion) and interpreting my statements with a priori assumptions.
If in the past someone became dictatorial about something, that was in the past relative to that person. If this forum is truly strong, it can handle someone coming along who has a different opinion. Diversity means more than bean counting--it means diversity of thought and opinion. If you do not want folks, especially new folks, to not discuss the puro issue, I would suggest you make this known. No where have I read that is topic is off limits. You could have explain the history, etc. and done so in a way that did not fuel the flames. Had you done so, I would not be typing this response.
You started this thread and have made several comments along the way that can be seen as flammable. When you make such comments you have to accept the responses to such statements/comments. Truth be told, had you limited your discussion to disagreeing with my opinion I probably would have not felt the need to respond because I have enough fortitude to accept that others may disagree with my position.
If you have noticed, others have voiced their opinions that were opposite of mine and I have not felt the need to counter their opinions because I can appreciate their opinions and know that my opinion is not the universal opinion or necessarily the correct opinion. I offered my opinion as a member of an open forum.
It is your behavior that I take exception to. When you imply that folks can have beer tossed into their face or that as a new person my opinion is not welcomed and I should lay low, what that says to me is that rather than accept someone with an opinion that is different from yours, you would rather have them tossed from the pub. If this is your personal forum, then toss me. If this is not your forum, then I guess we need to come to an understanding that will put this to rest so we can move on.
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Date Mar. 27 2004 16:34:34
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Kate)
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Well, Kate hold on a second. Of course there are guidelines. Those guidelines are called "social skills." That's why in the history of this forum, there have been maybe TWO arguments. (both incidentally having occurred rather recently, I believe).
My personal belief, not meant to represent anyone else's, is that when you have a lot of time invested in a forum, as I do, that your views on how things should be done there are a LOT different than someone who has absolutely nothing invested.
I think you probably feel the same way, Kate. Maybe that's why you and me and Florian have all gotten along with zero friction, despite the fact that our idea of what flamenco means are completely disparate. Maybe I didn't handle this issue correctly... but this place is valuable to me. It's valuable to me because of you, Kate, and you Florian, and you Simon. The people that I've known for years online--incidentally, Kate, you're the only one I've met in person--are more important than any egalitarian ideals of freedom of speech!
I can take barbs from Ron all day long, but that's because there is a history of goodwill between us and in this forum. You and I can make fun of Florian's spelling, but that's because we're friends. The day it becomes a faceless collection of puro-discussing, should I get the Lucida Picado or the Yamaha CGF51, what strings are best forum is a sad day indeed. I do have flamenco friends here in Phoenix, but I feel closer in a lot of ways to you guys. I welcome Tano and others here with open arms, I just ask that they respect the "aire" of this joint. I'm sure Tano has a LOT of great things to contribute, and I can't wait to hear him share some of his experiences and knowledge. But idealistic ideas of free speech--well, sorry, they don't interest me.
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Date Mar. 27 2004 19:26:26
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Guest
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RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Kate)
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Well Simon, here you hit the point, and I´m very glad that you did so, because there were a certain tendency in the postings that I didn´t like at all. I hope that this is a forum for everyone that knows how to post without being disrespectfull, and that newcommers (like me) don´t have to learn a lot of unwritten laws or codex to be accepted.
I´m sorry if I were to harsh in my opinions on GK, but I do find it very difficult to take a thread like this on a flamenco forum in serious. But don´t worry Miguel, I´ll post a bit more elegant in the future, because I actually understand your worries, because it´s so easy to throw dirt in everyones eyes on an internet forum
But back to the discussion:
The pure/nonpure topic will always be there. It´s everywhere in the flamenco, and we´ll always discuss it, so lets discuss it (but not all the time!!!!! please).
I followed the flamenco subject on the musicstudies at the university of Granada, and one of the main parts were the fusion of flamenco with other kinds of music during the past 2 - 300 years. There I learnt that flamenco has always fusioned, that it actually is one big fusion. So in my point of view, the puro discussion is silly, and I totally agree with the post by Florian on page 2, about the 40th 70th etc. In the end it´s all about what we like etc.
I´m so lucky that I like most historical variations of the flamenco (not flamencoopera!!). I like very much Niña de los peines con Ramon Montoya, I like Sabicas, Niño Ricardo, Paco, Sanlucar, Camaron, Lole y Manuel (that´s not accepted as flamenco) Morente, Nuñez etc.
But I must admit that I hate GK. I´ve always hated them, and will probably always hate them. But that´s just me, and I´ve no problem with people liking them, if they could please stop wanting me to like that horrible music.
And again, If you are in the mood for Rumberos, take a close look at Niña Pastory, because thats good (IMHO)
Well it´s cold and rainy here in Andalucia, so I´ll go upstairs, light the chimney, and prepare the sides for bending on no3 , a negra.
So be nice to each other
Anders
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Date Mar. 28 2004 8:36:12
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Guest
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RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Kate)
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Well, the first is a negra, but not with rosewood (palo escrito), but I do find Indian rosewood nice, and easy to work. Just go slow with the plane, because it chips easily. The bottom, I planed only crossgrain, so I had no problem there. It´s a nice wood to work with the cabinet scraber.
The sticky rosewood of yours, what is it? Still waiting for the nice weather to go on with your guitar?
Anders
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Date Mar. 28 2004 11:51:02
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Guest
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RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Kate)
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>I may move the workshop indoors with a dehumidifier for thie next Winter.<
That´s being serious Simon. It is kinda addictive this building thing isn´t it?
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Date Mar. 28 2004 14:23:53
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Kate
Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía
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RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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quote:
I think you probably feel the same way, Kate.
Hola Miguel,
Yes I do feel the same way. I am open to all discussions but like you feel it would be a shame if this forum fell into the same trap that I have seen on other forums which I no longer frequent due to the constant bitching and sniping.
I like flamenco in all its various manifestations, some more than others. I enjoy the Gypsy Kings, Ketama and OdB etc for what they are, although I would not put them in the same category as more traditional flamenco. The fusion dabate is an interesting one so lets keep our discussions interesting, informative and polite.
I have good memories of the night I met you and your, now, lady wife at the Peña and was really pleased you got the opportunity to enjoy Emilo and Victor performing with the ALhambra lit up as a perfect back drop. Shame about the tapas 
Un abrazo,
Kate
_____________________________
Emilio Maya Temple
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000CA6OBC
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/emiliomaya
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Date Mar. 28 2004 15:43:38
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