Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
|
|
|
RE: Flamenco Compas help needed
|
You are logged in as Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic: none
|
|
Login  | |
|
   
Kevin
Posts: 294
Joined: Sep. 7 2008
|
 RE: Flamenco Compas help needed (in reply to Ricardo)
|
|
|
quote:
Dancers are NOT MUSICIANS... Yeah, in the same way that percussionists are not musicians.  There is a large body of scholarship that sees dance as an extension of music even where there is not percussive phenomena. But, point taken.
quote:
but the appropriate way to notate those counts on music paper, in 3/4, with proper feeing is
(rest) & 2 & 3 & /1 & 2 & 3 & /1...
The proper way to notate it is to notate it however the hell you think most appropriate (within reason). Then, note why you have made that editorial decision. Then wait for other people to adopt your way, or not. Some will follow your way, others, maybe not. I'ts not a competition There are many different ways. Worms, Faucher, Hurtado, Fernandez, Herrero; all differ in many ways.
Does the "rest" correspond to 12? What does the first "&" correspond to?
quote:
What we see more often IN PRACTICE, is transcribing bulerias AS IF IT IS A FAST SOLEA..and this is misspresenting the fundamental feeling behind the rhythm despite being mathematically "correct" and correlating to dancer's counting. Later this is misleadingly taught to beginners as the BASIS of the rhythmic feeling which leads to confusion when the first "half compas" situation is encountered.
With all due respect, I agree with the last part about half compas. However, other than that, your conclusion is historically and musicologically uninformed.
It all has to do with perception. It would be too long of a discussion for here but the reasons for notating the solea and bulerias differently has to do with harmonic accents.
In bulerias, harmonic accents generally tend to follow the compas accents. Not so in solea.
In solea there is a secondary rhythmic level, call it 1-4-7-10. This is the harmonic level and many falsetas follow this form. We can actually say that most of the time we perceive a solea falseta to resolve (sometimes end) on 10, then with the cierre from 10-12 it really ends on 12. That is how we perceive it because that cierre, usually an arpegio figure, but sometimes scalar, propels us to the 12. It is so climactic in some instances, that guitarists just breathe on 1-2 and come in on 3.
In the bulerias the cierre leads to 10, and even where some figure takes us to 12, the twelve is not perceived as the end of the compas.
It's a lose/lose. The BEST way to notate solea???
Maybe, 3/4 beginning on what we traditionally count as 1. The best way to notate bulerias is also in 3/4 but "12" is the first beat in the measure.
In the end, these are all roadmaps to help people and some are better in some ways (faulty in others) while others are better in other ways (but still faulty). The way to reduce confusion and miscomunication it is to be more meticulously descriptive in notes, and in/with the score itself.
Edit: I agree With your point about notating the buleria the same as the solea being problematic. But the only wrong way is the way that no one benefits from. Many benefit from Worms (and Herrero), who both often do that.
_____________________________
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Apr. 17 2015 19:35:49
 |
|
Ricardo
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
|
|
RE: Flamenco Compas help needed (in reply to Paul Magnussen)
|
|
|
quote:
Certainly, in practice. But that’s why I added “(conceptually, anyway)”. But are these not variations? Billie Holiday almost never sang the original melody (my mother used to complain about that), but that doesn’t mean she didn’t have it in mind.
To put your analogy into context of what I am saying about buleria/solea...the 12 count and famous accent pattern would be the VARIATION, one of several of Billie Holiday version, and the "original melody" Billie Holiday might be hearing in her head is actually (corresponding to flamenco compas) a more simple unit of rhythm that one could notate properly on staff music paper if so inclined.
So maybe you have it backwards? But it's understandable because, as I have been saying, the complex thing is what is taught to beginners as the BASE...priming them for dance class it would seem.
About buleria evolving out of solea...the letras can be the same for both...the melodies are similar and can be though of as structurally the same...of course details are extremely signifacant at differing speeds....but after all, talking song form and compas in general, I have read that some believe Jaleo to be the precursor to Solea...and if you have ever heard "Romances" they soud suspiciously closer to buleria type melody/rhythm than solea. For sure the SLOWLEA...(as I jokingly call dancer versions) evolved much later...and tientos came out of tangos...so it could be, once again, we might have this concept BACKWARDS as well.
As always I say, before recording evidence I can examin it is only grain of salt conjecture to me.
And regarding Kevin's statement that my "conclusion" about compas is "historically or musicologically uninformed"...well, I am gonna pretend I didn't read that.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Apr. 18 2015 18:16:12
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts
|
|
|
Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET |
0.078125 secs.
|
Printable Version
