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Billyboy
Posts: 389
Joined: Aug. 18 2003
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 RE: Flamenco Compas help needed (in reply to Guest)
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Your listening to the wrong person with PDL, very syncopated, you should listen to more trad stuff, the compas is only one part of it, what chords are played on what beats etc is another. There is an excellent flamenco metronome that is invaluable for anyone learning flamenco, 'Flamenoco Master', its a must have, and as far as I know, the only dedicated computer based flamenco metronome out there, although I have a Whittner, pyramid clockwork metronome that rings a bell on the compas, but it is difficult to fathom, much better using a visual metronome, then when you get more confident, play without looking at the screen.
Dave
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Date Mar. 19 2004 20:09:21
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: Flamenco Compas help needed (in reply to Guest)
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Nealf,
You're right in saying that adherance to compás is essential if you want to learn "proper" Flamenco.
If you're interested in picking up the flamenco "style" of playing guitar (ie technique) to add to something you already do, then it's not so important.
In Flamenco everything revolves around compás since it is an art form which includes singers, dancers and guitarists and in order for them to get together and "jam", they must all be feeling the same rhythm otherwise it cannot work.
It's difficult to pick up on compás listening to modern virtuoso guitarists as they will generally bend and heavily syncopate the rhythm and play around with the general form of the particular "palo" or style.
Older "solo" guitarists say like Sabicas will tend to stick to something more immediately understandable, but even there some parts will not quite make sense.
Better listening to some earlier traditional style recordings which include singer, dancer and guitar. There you should find the compás to be very clear.
Even in some earlier "modern" style CD's of say Paco de Lucia with El Camaron de la Isla you'll find will have very "followable" compás.
The "Solo Compás" series is very good as is the "Cristina Hoyos" series, but they are very "dry", aimed, I think for student dancers wishing to practise on their own.
Nevertheless, if you can afford to buy them then do so as they are excellent.
As for a metronome, there are a few Metronomes both software and hardware versions available which are excellent for Flamenco studies.
The ones which come to mind are Mundo Beat (available in software form or as an actual physical electronic metronome), the Graf-Martinez software metronome, and the Flamenco Master software metronome.
There are also a couple of "free" metronomes I've come across which seem to work in Quicktime or something and on my computer seem to have a randomly variable time between beats which seems to defeat the purpose of having a metronome IMO. 
cheers
Ron
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Date Mar. 19 2004 20:17:35
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Patrick
Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon
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RE: Flamenco Compas help needed (in reply to Guest)
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Neal,
Ron's being modest. Just get his Flamenco Master software and get it over with. If you want a hardware version, Mundo Beat is the way to go (I use it).
Also, I highly recommend the CD/Book "Understanding Flamenco" by Faustino Nunez. It's available from Flamenco World and Flamenco Connection. The book is close to worthless, but the CD that comes with it is a must have for learning compas on your own.
As mentioned, I would focus on the older recordings for now.
One other thing. Instead of the more traditional way of counting Solea (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,1,2), you might try counting this way (1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,1,2,1,2) (accents in bold).
Pat
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Date Mar. 19 2004 22:19:10
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gk
Posts: 3
Joined: Apr. 16 2015
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RE: Flamenco Compas help needed (in reply to Patrick)
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quote:
Also, I highly recommend the CD/Book "Understanding Flamenco" by Faustino Nunez. It's available from Flamenco World and Flamenco Connection. The book is close to worthless, but the CD that comes with it is a must have for learning compas on your own.
I know this thread is old but I want to express my deep gratitude for this reference, and others.
I have been a flamenco student since 1985, with Paco Pena, in Cordoba.
One thing that I have been cursed by was that, despite my suggestion that maybe "twelve" could be called "one", Paco Pena was very insistent that "twelve" is "twelve", not "one", in Bulerias.
This comment, by my guru, at the time, has always haunted, and discouraged me, until recently.
A few decades have now passed, since 1985, and I find, finally some support for my view, thanks to this forum, and a few noted educators:
+ Faustino Núñez - Understanding Flamenco (2003)
+ Nan Mercader - La Percusión En El Flamenco (2000)
+ Gerhard Graf-Martinez - Flamenco Guitar Method, Vol 2 (2004)
- among others.
I don't fault Paco Peno, entirely, for discouraging me.
In hindsight, it seems to be a problem of language.
To me (and apparently also to Faustino, Nan and Gerhard), "one" means the start of the compas.
To Paco, apparently, "one" meant a position in the "flamenco clock" order of accents: in other words Paco could not agree to simply rename beat "twelve" as "one", despite the fact that it is the beginning of the bulerias compas - to Paco, in hindsight, I figure, he must have been thinking of the order of accents: you cannot simply call beat twelve "beat one" because that would (wrongly) imply that it is not accented, and that you have shifted all of the accents in the cycle.
I hope you guys understand where I'm coming from.
For decades, I have been trying to interpret Paco Pena's comments and assumed that the whole point was that "one" in Soleares is still the "one", in Bulerias, but that it is the un-accented "upbeat" and not the accented "downbeat" (strong beat).
This was a very hard pill to swallow since I can't help but regard a "strong" beat as a "downbeat", and, indeed, Faustino, Nan and Gerhard seem to agree.
Thanks to this forum, I have read what Faustino has to say, which reconciles the subject:
It makes sense to call beat "twelve" in Bulerias "beat one" since:
+ It is the beginning of the compas
+ It is accented
You can also understand Soleares, in the same context, if you like, but the difference is that, in Soleares, beat "twelve" is silent (unaccented).
Wow. This reveleation was a blockbuster to me. Surprised that I never heard it before.
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Date Apr. 16 2015 15:01:41
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Ricardo
Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Flamenco Compas help needed (in reply to Paul Magnussen)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Paul Magnussen
quote:
To Paco, apparently, "one" meant a position in the "flamenco clock" order of accents: in other words Paco could not agree to simply rename beat "twelve" as "one", despite the fact that it is the beginning of the bulerias compas
What Leñador said. Paco was exactly right: when you rename"12" to "1", you set one foot firmly on the road to lunacy — as you’ve found out the hard way.
Because the compás is (conceptually, anyway) invariant; where you actually start playing (or singing) could be anywhere, and not infrequently is — some bulerías falsetas start on beat 9½, for instance.
Know the the fandango «Ni que me manden a mí» on Arte y majestad? The introduction to that starts on 5.
And so on.
Well we have discussed this topic much in the past. Dancers are NOT MUSICIANS...it becomes important to understand their language in order to communicate...the 12 count thing or counting to 8 in tangos or farruca, are NOT musical equivalants to meter. They are the sort of Rosetta stone by which communication between movement and sound becomes possible. The fact that two forms such as solea and buleria can be "bridged" in a dance, thanks to the dancer count system, does not imply that compas of the two forms is invarient. Compas varies greatly, EVEN WITH IN ONE FORM...
The way I see it is simple... regardless if the count is the same, when the FOOT TAP changes, the meter is also changing, like it or not. A transcriber can opt to notate different ways, but in the end the music need not be represented that way according to the traditional discipline anyway. But if one were to explore different methods, and that person had decent background in complex meters and such, there will exist a BEST way to do it. It would mean throwing away the attempt to correlate the count of the dancer to the meter on the staff, and in fact one might find what is counted in class as "12" or "6" is, on paper, best expressed as a clear "1", or down beat.
Here is an example...many bulerias are counted by dancers like this:
...1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10,un do...
but the appropriate way to notate those counts on music paper, in 3/4, with proper feeing is
(rest) & 2 & 3 & /1 & 2 & 3 & /1...
Eighth notes are getting the count, obviously. With in the frame work of feeling the meter, many different accent combinations can be expressed. Some passages or phrases of music might be better expressed in 6/8 meter, where the 8th note=8th note value has to be expressed above the meter change...but those passages are comparatively more rare in the big picture of buleria throughout history (all one needs to do is a take a large sampling of foot taps of players and singers to see this).
What we see more often IN PRACTICE, is transcribing bulerias AS IF IT IS A FAST SOLEA..and this is misspresenting the fundamental feeling behind the rhythm despite being mathematically "correct" and correlating to dancer's counting. Later this is misleadingly taught to beginners as the BASIS of the rhythmic feeling which leads to confusion when the first "half compas" situation is encountered.
Ricardo
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Apr. 16 2015 20:57:44
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Sr. Martins
Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
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RE: Flamenco Compas help needed (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
Problem is with your unique method, is you don't show that 1 and 3 carry equal weight. Better to say 1xx2xx,1x2x3x...and explain either pattern is fine to reapeat or switch out or overlap, omit or add, and it's all good.
Jeez.. police..
I don't remember if it was numbered like that, I just know there were 5 beats, two "big" and three "short", that's all I was trying to pass on without getting too nerdy or judgy.
Peace hugs
edit:
On a nerdy note and by my judgement, this is REALLY important to anyone:
quote:
...and explain either pattern is fine to repeat or switch out or overlap, omit or add, and it's all good.
Doesn't matter if it's 12, 1, or whatever... getting a feel for how those chunks are often used and also superimposed is, on my "judgy", one of the big "Ahhh!!!" moments one can have.
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Date Apr. 16 2015 22:22:42
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