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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2004 19:22:52

Paul Bruhns

Posts: 77
Joined: Jul. 14 2003

RE: Snooping on the "other"... (in reply to Guest)

Andy:

If you met him, you would immediately change your mind. He would win you over. I spent an evening with him and a bunch of local flamencos a couple weeks ago after a tablau show. We all sat around doing bulerias... let's say a bulerias that lasted about 20 minutes at a time! Someone playing compas on the guitar, a few doing palmas, and then three or four changing turns singing letras. Richard is a pretty good singer! and although he doesnt speak much Spanish... he sings a mean bulerias. He is such a flamenco geek that even his friends have to tolerate his incessent playing, discussing, singing, but he is so cool about it. You would love the guy.

Regards,
Paul

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2004 19:53:04

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Snooping on the "other"... (in reply to Guest)

Yeah Andy,
I'd agree there. Richard M's posts are always interesting and I must admit I click on them first myself.
However, sometimes I wonder if he knows more about say Paco's or Tomatito's technique than they do themselves?
I'm not saying this in a cheeky or funny way, I think he analyzes technique in microscopic detail, which is interesting, but I'm not sure how helpful it is either to himself or others.
In saying that, I'm sure he is a far, far better guitarist than I will ever hope to be, so it's difficult to critisize his views other than going by a general "gut" reaction.
But I think he's a true guitar aficionado and I respect him mucho, as I do ToddK.

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2004 19:58:56

el ted

Posts: 466
Joined: Nov. 13 2003

RE: Snooping on the "other"... (in reply to Guest)

I have had a look at the site you lads are talking about and it looks more like a commercial operation than an afficianado's home. Have any of you paid to join? if so, is it worth the money?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 9 2004 11:05:23

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: Snooping on the "other"... (in reply to el ted)

quote:

ORIGINAL: el ted
I have had a look at the site you lads are talking about and it looks more like a commercial operation than an afficianado's home. Have any of you paid to join? if so, is it worth the money?

Its free to post, the fees are only applicable if you are interested in access to the online lessons.

There's a whole bunch of us here who used to be regulars there, right up to the point at which it was shut down due to feuding, long flaming threads and general bad feeling.
Intertestingly, several of the regulars had already met on a previous online forum which itself had succumbed to the same kind of problems.

All that, plus the desire to establish something better suited to our needs, led to the establishment of Foro Flamenco. Simon runs this site on a purely non-commercial basis and the whole thing has been needs-led with input from users from day one. We even had a whip round to help pay the hosting costs!

Viva Foro Flamenco :-)

Jon

PS I see that RichardM is now listed as one of the site tutors, which I reckon is a good thing, as I second the stuff above about his skills/knowledge.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 9 2004 11:36:13

el ted

Posts: 466
Joined: Nov. 13 2003

RE: Snooping on the "other"... (in reply to Guest)

JON,
thanks for that post. that is the problem with sites that allow "guests" to post, all sorts of nutters join in. I think I will stay put!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 9 2004 12:58:43

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 9 2004 13:49:55

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 9 2004 13:54:06

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Snooping on the "other"... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

This the nicest group of folks that I've found on any internet forum

You should meet some of them in a bar sometime. A bigger bunch of whining, bitching misfits I have never met in my life. Just kidding

Thanks for your support. Foro Flamenco will actively promote more meetings in the analogue world. The flight down here from the UK was $100-$120 return, direct to Jerez. US-UK fares can be low, though a little more from Australia I guess.

Through our contacts we can get 4 room apartments from $15 a day for each two bed room, $7.5 if you want to share.

The shows are from $10-$15, penas are free, food is 30% cheaper than the UK and beer is $1 a go. Good wine is $5 a bottle or less. Sherry de Jerez is plentiful.

Be warned, flamenco is everywhere, on car CDs, even guys singing on their mopeds. The locals want to hear me play the blues

The friendliest place I have been in the World since I was in the US and Africa. No snobbery, except for the Bulerias de Jerez, of course

Plenty of passion and not a little sweat.

¿Fancy a trip to the Buleria in September?

Got to go for a wander back to my pit for a quick siesta before the night comes.

Un Abrazo!

_____________________________

Foro Flamenco founder and Admin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 9 2004 14:37:35

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Snooping on the "other"... (in reply to Guest)

Andy,
I didn't mean that remark in any sort of derogartory sense, but literally!
A few years ago there was a TV program which investigated if Cricket batsmen kept their eye on the ball or closed their eyes.
All the professionals, who had been playing the game for years swore they kept their eyes on the ball right up to the point of contact.
However high speed photography proved that they all had their eyes closed long before the bat struck the ball, proving that they were "reading" the pitch rather than aiming for the ball in flight.
(I suppose the same would apply to Baseball.)
The ball simply goes too fast for anyone to follow.
All the batsmen were amazed...... They had no idea they did this!
This is what I mean by "knowing more" than the guys who are actually doing it!
I'm sure Paco didn't set out to stop notes as Richard describes, or indeed is aware that he does so. I would think he just sets out for a particular sound and adjusts his technique accordingly.
But if you slow the fast picado right down and play it back on a computer then you can see/hear that he in fact does this.
I'm still sure Paco's not aware of this! LOL!
And I doubt if knowing this would help anybody's picado in the same way as advising a trainee batsman to close his eyes at a certain time before he hits the ball would actually help his technique.

On the subject of picado, I always thought that the stacatto way of playing picado (ie damping the sound inbetween notes) was the thing that differentiated Flamenco picado from the Classical?

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 9 2004 15:32:07

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 9 2004 16:07:30

Paul Bruhns

Posts: 77
Joined: Jul. 14 2003

RE: Snooping on the "other"... (in reply to Guest)

ANDY/RON

I can't believe you guys. You sit there and critisize and then act like you know what the F*** you are talking about. Do you really think you are in a position to critisize paco de lucia's picado attack? Or, that you are in a position to analyze it? I mean it's bad enough that you talk about the FT forum people behind their backs, but to lurk in there to see what's going on, and then not find it within yourself to post a reply? Instead you come here and pretend you are above the frey.

Now, having said that, I can see how not knowing someone can make you see red. I can't stand you two, and I'm sure it's only because I don't know you personally. If I did, I'm sure I would have an entirely different opinion.

I mean in the long run, we all love flamenco, and I have never hung out with a bunch of flamencos and not totally enjoyed every minute of their company. But this whole bravado about pretending to be knowlegeable and critical of others is utter nonsense. You don't know them, and you don't know enough to critisize them.

You alienate me. That's about all I have to say.

Paul

PS: If this is considered inflamatory and gets me booted so be it, but I won't go talking about behind your backs.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2004 2:42:46

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2004 3:26:16

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Snooping on the "other"... (in reply to Paul Bruhns)

Que pasa contigo Paul?
I'm hardly knowledgeable about advanced Flamenco guitar technique.
All I was saying is that I think Richard is incredibly analytical of guitar technique.
Microscopically analytical.
This isn't a critisizm, only an observation.
I was only questioning the value of going into it in that depth of detail, versus just aiming for the sound, which is the method I tend to use.
I doubt if Richard would take any offence to this opinion.
I mean, he may argue the point amicably, but I doubt if he would take offence to the fact that someone else may have a different view.

As far as not posting on the FT forum, it's just a question of the amount of time I have available to spend on the Internet.
As well as that I find this Forum tends to suit me better as someone living in the UK.

Paul, you seem to consider viewing posts on another forum as being some sort of unethical activity?
I don't understand?
There are plenty Members on this Forum who have not posted or replied to a post even once. So what?

From time to time I speak to Richard via email and get on well with him.
I find him a very knowledgeable and enthusiastic guy and he's also got a good sense of humour.
I'm sure he's a big enough guy not to need guardians protecting him from any comment which may fall short of hero worship.

Andy's post and my post contained nothing offensive towards Paco de Lucia or Richard and personally I can't see what's got you so riled.
Jeez, I sometimes think that we're going to have to get a lawyer to check each and every post to ensure that they are worded in legal jargon so they cannot be misunderstood!

Take it easy Paul, for goodness sake!

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2004 8:50:20

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Snooping on the "other"... (in reply to Guest)

Hi Paul

I think you can have an oppinion about anything you like.
You don´t have to be as good as Paco to have an oppinion about his music.

Exampel: I don´t play violin.
But if i hear a violinist. It´s up to me if it´s good or not. You don´t have to play the instrument to have the right to have an oppinion about it.

Henrik

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2004 9:38:15

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Snooping on the "other"... (in reply to Guest)

The only reason this place is what it is is because we have always been able to be civil to eachother no matter how much we disagree.

I like everysingle one of you guys (that's ever paid me a compliment

) But if you dont kiss and make up, I WILL SEND BOBBY TO YOUR HOUSES and you better pray to God that you got no chocolate in your house !!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2004 9:40:32

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Snooping on the "other"... (in reply to duende)

quote:

I think you can have an oppinion about anything you like.
You don´t have to be as good as Paco to have an oppinion about his music.

OK YOU SUCK

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2004 9:48:22

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Snooping on the "other"... (in reply to Florian)

suck on this!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2004 9:54:27

Paul Bruhns

Posts: 77
Joined: Jul. 14 2003

RE: Snooping on the "other"... (in reply to Guest)

OK GUYS:

I can see your points, now that I've had a night's sleep. I won't run away from the comment I made last night, and I'll defend the point I made, even if I was less than eloquent in my delivery of it.

I know Richard well enough, and he is a geek when it comes to flamenco guitar. Yes, he can break down a player's technique into very small and subtle parts, and how he does that I don't know, he just hears it at a different level than most of us do.

But what you probably don't get from these written words is that Richard is more willing to share and help anyone who asks for it. He spend a couple hours with me once just showing me (in any way it would take) how to internalize a compas with alegrias. Never once did he get frustrated or just give up. He wanted me to GET IT, because he knew I wanted to GET IT.

I know everyone has an ego and it can get tripped at some level. When Richard is being beligerant about a certain point, it never comes accross as condecending in person. Maybe it does in print, but that is not his nature in real life. I can see past what you don't in print because I know him in person. That's true of others I know in the FT forum as well. I know Ramin and Behzad, and they are great guys. We are always discussing points of flamenco, and if it were in writing it would look disrespectful... but it's never that way in person.

I beg to apologize for my insensitive delivery in my previous post. I ranted, and I should have slept on it before I made my point. I was frustrated. And, by the way, I love Pepe Habichuela, Perilla De Jerez (Manuel Fernandez Molina) and Eva Yurbabuena's husband Paco Jarana... so if you want to chat technique and approach to the music, there are lots of different artists to ponder. All have something to give.

As I close, I hope you will remember this point... I would like you all in person, I'm sure of it. So, I won't take the words on paper as a measure of who you are.

Cheers,
Paul

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2004 12:13:41

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Snooping on the "other"... (in reply to Paul Bruhns)

Paco Jarana now we talkin !! that guy is greate hes one of the most perfect guitarists out there , acompanying dancers, cante, falsetas technique.

For anyone that hasent heard him allready he plays on the : Un secundo de cante cd

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2004 12:45:54

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: Snooping on the "other"... (in reply to Guest)

A couple of thoughts on the above..

The concept of practicing scales - rest stroke or free stroke - in a stacatto way to improve speed and attack as RichardM discusses is something that has been around for a while in classical guitar teaching. See Pumping Nylon (not again!) for a whole section devoted to this kind of thing.

I think the interesting question is whether there is actually time for the finger to stop on the string when we are discussing something as ferocious and fast as Paco's picado. I find it hard to conceive of anything other than a continous motion, yet this practice technique does seem to give a clearer attack.

To pick up Ron's point, yes I'm quite sure that Paco doesn't give his technqiue that kind of analysis, but the role of teachers is (partly) to work out what it is that the great players are doing, in order that we mere mortals might learn from them, surely? The great players are not usually the best teachers, and are not always terribly good at communicating about what they do.
'
When Eddie Van Halen played the solo on Michael Jackson's 'Beat It', and guitarists heard him for the first time they said "What the f***!!!?"

Eddie just turned up and did his thing (in 20 mins, allegedly) and doesn't have a whole lot to say on the subject of technique, but there are now plenty of rock videos and books that will get you tapping, doing whammy bar divebombs etc, etc on the market. Thats because teachers/players took time to analyse what Eddie was doing, so it could be taught to others.

Jon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2004 13:53:57

Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: Snooping on the "other"... (in reply to Guest)

Florian,

I just saw Paco Jarana last week in Portland. Portland finally got a big time troop. Paco was of course with Eva Yerbabuena. I may be wrong, but I read that he is Eva's husband.

I had read am interview he gave to Flamenco World, but that's about all I knew about him. Let me tell you, the guy is unbelievable! After the first Bulerias they played I told my wife (she doesn’t have a clue about flamenco), that he was the star of the whole troop in my opinion. Other then one Tangos, him and his second guitar played the whole night without a capo. Now that in it self is no big deal, but they didn't play in first position. He was doing picado runs on the twelfth fret.

He choreographed all of the music for the show, which was incredibly tight. The guy was playing at concert solo level. Maybe someday he will do a solo CD. We can only hope.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2004 18:03:08

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Snooping on the "other"... (in reply to Jon Boyes)

Patrick
Yes he's Eva's husband , Yes i think is just a matter of time before he puts out a solo cd.
have you heard the cd i mentioned earlier ?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2004 22:06:34

Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: Snooping on the "other"... (in reply to Jon Boyes)

Florian,

No, but I will look into it.

Thanks

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2004 22:20:32

Guest

RE: Snooping on the "other"... (in reply to Jon Boyes)

Just to say, that I totally understand the post where Poul B. got upset. There were at the start of this line a tendency to talk behind backs and a feeling of "we are so good here", that I as well disliked.

I, like Poul, use the F - T forum, and have no problems. No flaming, no anything negative. Sometimes we have big arguments, and get hotheaded, but that´s exactly what I like about F - T. It´s not better or worse, just different, and if some of you guys se red, when some other flamenco aficionado talks, it´s probably because you´ve got exactly the same problem!!!! as the one you are critisising.

I´m personally looking with a lot os sceptism on the way F - t is changing commercially, and it might make me quit, don´t know yet, have to se the end result. And to answer the guy that asked if it was worth the money I´d say: if you are a beginner, it was wort the money, but with the new system, I seriously doubt it

Nice playing
Anders

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 11 2004 7:43:48

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 11 2004 12:50:44

el ted

Posts: 466
Joined: Nov. 13 2003

RE: Snooping on the "other"... (in reply to Jon Boyes)

Yo Anders,
I was the chap asking if the site is worth buying in to, but I am not a beginner so I would probably be disappointed. Calm down the rest of you eh? I do not believe we are "talking behind FT's back" because everything we say is stuck up on screen for all to read.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 11 2004 13:05:18

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Snooping on the "other"... (in reply to Guest)

Don't be daft Andy! (is daft an English word??)
Jeez, what's going on, everybody's so touchy.
It's not exactly a major International incident is it?

Let's all cool it, eh?

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 11 2004 13:36:36

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Snooping on the "other"... (in reply to Jon Boyes)

I for one certainly don't agree with anything Poul has said. Wait, who's Poul?

Seriously, if people are mad I certainly don't mind them leaving for a "cool-off" period. Remember, this forum was specifically created to make a safe haven. I don't think anyone's purpose is served by getting thrown into righteous anger. It's nice to defend your friends but these are all adults we're talking about and outspoken people. Such people, like JLo or Mel Gibson WILL be talked about and that's all there is to it. Sure, say you don't like it but don't go off. Your opinion is appreciated, but open animosity is NEVER appreciated.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 11 2004 14:34:18