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tanolonco

 

Posts: 18
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

conde hermanos 

The Felipe V vs. Gravina 7 "rivalary?" is known-- at least from the Felipe V perspective. Has the Gravina 7 shop made their opinion to the matter known?

There also seems to be some interesting label issues: both the Felipe V and Gravina 7 shops use both "Hermanos Conde" and "Conde Hermanos" on their labels (these are year 2000 and forward). And then there is the issue of why Paco no longer uses a Conde but rather a Carillio. Any insight would be interesting to read.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2004 14:36:16
Guest

RE: conde hermanos (in reply to tanolonco

Hola

Felipe V is the only shop with resident guitarreros, 2 Conde brothers, who presumably can only make a few instruments annualy. They sell hundreds, if not thousands, so most are sourced elsewhere.

Gravina, the original shop, is run by the viuda of Faustino. It has no resident guitarreros at all and she says the guitars are made by former apprenctices of Faustino.

If you like even muddier waters, do not forget the 3rd shop in Atocha! It has no guitarreros either.

Suerte

Sean
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2004 15:12:36
 
Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: conde hermanos (in reply to Guest

Hi Sean,
It's odd that the Gravina shop uses the PdL link to advertise their guitars (at least over the internet) and the Felipe V makes no reference?
I always understood that FV guitars were the true Condes and I have come across some really dud Gravinas. I have a FV A26 signed and my initial surprise was the weight at 1,450 kg it's much heavier than my Ramirez which weighs it at 1,150kg.
My observation is that weight and power are interlinked and if a guitar is too heavy much of the energy from the strings will be lost in overcomming the inertia of the instrument, it follows that a light guitar will be better and my lightweight Ramirez is just superb.
Sorry to ramble,
Cheers
Jim.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 14 2004 11:31:15

Paco E.

Posts: 70
Joined: Nov. 16 2003
From: Wieringerwerf, Holland

RE: conde hermanos (in reply to Jim Opfer

Hmm,

ofcourse the mass of a guitar is impotant, the more mass the more energy will be absorbed.

The lighter the better, but stronger, this will do it.
But this is not the only thing.
The "tone color" is also important, not only the projection and the volume.
for example, a concrete guitar, back and sides, armed with steel, wil probably give a high volume, but who will get excited of the tone? And who can play on it?


Ed
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 14 2004 17:05:16
 
Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: conde hermanos (in reply to Paco E.

Hi Ed.

I don't get the concrete/steel guitar thing?
Taken as read that quality of sound is a major factor.
There's something special about a traditional lightweight cypress flamenco with pegs and a voice with that fizzy shiver citrus sound that you can almost chew on.

Cheers
Jim.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 14 2004 18:14:17
 
tanolonco

 

Posts: 18
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

RE: conde hermanos (in reply to Jim Opfer

guitar weight etc. aside, i am still curious whether the gravina 7 shop has made any declaration of the conde name. the "real" conde's always came from the gravina 7 shop and the felipe v shop was an add-on. it is when the original successors to domingo esteso died did the split occur--in the early 1990's.

and to the link of the gravina 7 to Paco. since his name and such are still being used by the gravina 7 folks, is there some underlying legal issue going on? if not, is there a story here?

and lastly, both the felipe v and gravina 7 shops use the label conde hermanos and hermanos conde--which is very interesting to say the least.

thanks for your replies
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 16 2004 12:39:00

Paco E.

Posts: 70
Joined: Nov. 16 2003
From: Wieringerwerf, Holland

RE: conde hermanos (in reply to Jim Opfer

Hi Jim,

I mean with the concrete example, that the more stiffness the guitar body has,
the more string energy will project via the top.
But there is always the compromise between this, and the tone of a guitar. and ofcourse
the playability.

Ed
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 16 2004 18:26:53
 
Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: conde hermanos (in reply to Paco E.

Hi Ed,
I think the concrete/ steel back and sides would deaden all sound and your lightweight top would have no effect.
Every good guitar I've tried, has been alive with resonance and vibrations produced by the strings are felt all through the instrument.
Valeriano Bernal goes further and scoops out the neck below the fingerboard to enhance/trumpet this effect.
These are just my observations and I'm sure there will be all sorts of other factors, Phil advises that there are good luthiers now on Foro, so it would be good to get the benefit of their expertise.
I'll make a new post.
Cheers
Jim.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 16 2004 19:09:09
Guest

RE: conde hermanos (in reply to Jim Opfer

Hola Jim

Everybody scoops out the neck beneath the fingerboard. This is to add strenght and has nothing to do with sound.

Sean
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 16 2004 22:32:49
 
Escribano

Posts: 6305
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: conde hermanos (in reply to Guest

I believe Bernal scoops two slots up under the fingerboard to lose weight. Everything has an impact on resonance though, I would wager.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 16 2004 23:26:16
 
Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: conde hermanos (in reply to Guest

Hi Sean,

Mmmmm...? you got me there, I don't know if I agree with you that 'everybody scoops out the neck beneath the fingerboard' I remember seeing pictures with flat ceder and ebony strip reinforcement and no scoop, but would have to check.

Cheers
Jim.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 17 2004 12:17:38
Guest

RE: conde hermanos (in reply to Jim Opfer

Hola Jim

I work in the taller of Rafael Lopez. He was a student of Jose Romanillos and learned to scoop out the neck from him.

Sean
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 17 2004 15:47:55
 
Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: conde hermanos (in reply to Guest

Sean,
That sounds like a nice thing to be doing, are you apprentice, training or trained or 'just' the accountant?
Cheers
Jim.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 19 2004 15:59:42
Guest

RE: conde hermanos (in reply to Jim Opfer

Hola Jiim

I am the juerga assistant

Sean
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 20 2004 17:49:05
Guest

RE: conde hermanos (in reply to tanolonco

It´s normal practice to rout two slots beneath the fingerboard, and glue in two reinforcement strips. Ebony, granadillo, carbonfiber, fenolic etc.
It has nothing to do with sound. It´s for reinforcing the neck, and it actually makes it heavier, and if made with ebony or other heavy hardwood, makes it transmit more sustain, which some people love and others hate.

Anders
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 21 2004 8:40:26
 
Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: conde hermanos (in reply to Guest

Hi Sean,

Please let me know, what is a Juerga assistant? sounds like you organise the parties but I'm sure that can't be right.

I see you live in Cadiz, great town.
I was there last year and here's my story:

I stayed in Cadiz (Playa) last May when I was over for the Celtic game in Seville.
Rather than drink the evening away, I talked a few of my pals into going to 'El Cava' in Cadiz town. The Waiter wouldn't let us in and said it was for serious Flamenco, I don't have Spanish so I just rhymed off, Buleria, solea, tientos etc.... and he showed us to a table.
The flamenco was great with a young cantaor with huge voice, two good dancers (one was ment to have won some national competition for new young talent - she was really good) and a wiz guitarist playing all the new licks.
After the show and a few vino tintos later, my pal, Johnnie, told the waiter I was going to play guitar, the waiter gave me the 'set' guitar which was sitting on a chair on the stage and left me with it to tune up. It was a shocker and after about 10 minutes I realised that part of the problem was the strings went into the wrong tunners.
I was invited onto the stage and started some Tangos, the waiter came over from the bar and took the guitar off me and gave me better guitar. I remember saying something like, 'this is for my friends and dear ol' glasgow celtic' then I played granaina and then a tangos, the waiter brought over a glass of wine and it was just a great experience. Playing wasn't great but everyone seemed to find it quite surreal that this guy from Scotland had just turned up and played guitar.
We got gubbed the following evening in that baking oven over in Seville.

Cheers
Jim.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 21 2004 19:25:32
Guest

RE: conde hermanos (in reply to Jim Opfer

Hola Jim

A juerga assistant goes on juergas with his maestro and sometimes takes over guitar if the maestro is tired or drunk (God forbid!). Rafael prefers juergas to making guitars, though my favourite guitar is a cipres, abeto, palillos, which he made for me recently. Nowadays, I prefer to organise my own juergas.

In the Cava, you probably heard Raul Galvez, the best young singer in Cadiz. The good dancer is Patricia, who does not want to progress because she is studying at the university and she has a novio. The guitarist is Juan Ramon Ortega, who is a monstruo. You should have asked him for lessons: he has great patience.

I seldom go there as I do not like the management policy you have referred to.

Suerte

Sean
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 28 2004 21:56:13
Guest

RE: conde hermanos (in reply to Guest

Hola Anders

While it is normal practice to scoop out the neck for strength ( a tube is more resistant to bending than a solid bar), I did not know that in Granada you glued in reinforcement strips. Romanillos, who is one of the great maestros, does not do this.

Isn´t it strange that Spanish guitarreros often work in isolation?

Suerte

Sean
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 28 2004 22:04:58
 
TANúñez

Posts: 2547
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: conde hermanos (in reply to Guest

Not every maker uses a reinforcement strip but a lot of them do. It also depends on how stable the neck wood is and how thick/thin they're making the neck.

If your using very stable wood and not an overly thin neck you may be able to get away without a reinforcement. Plus, the tension on a classical/flamenco guitar is nothing like that of a steel string guitar where it is usually a must to have a reinforcement, a truss rod in the case of a steel string.

Usually one reinforcement strip is enough. You don't really have to use two. When two are used it's usually an aesthetic thing especially if you can see the strips on the back of the neck.

_____________________________

Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 29 2004 12:36:11
Guest

RE: conde hermanos (in reply to tanolonco

A good reason for using reinforcement bars is that the neck will be more stable. On a thin flamenconeck with thin fingerboard, you´ll note a difference in action and relief when you change string tension. This doesn´t happen with a reinforced neck, and it´ll in general have less tentensy to move with changes (humidity and time).

A good reason for using 2 strips is that it´ll keep the guitar neck from warping. The Granada tradition is to glue in 2 strips below the fingerboard in slots, which youve made with a router. It´s not a laminated neck. You do not se the strips, only in the stringramps of the headstock, where you´ll se the end of them, for 2 reasons, it´s difficult to hide, and you show the good work you´ve made.
I´m currently making an experiment with using fenolic laminated wood (high end lam wood) for the strips. It´s very strong and light. Weight in a neck transfers stringvibrations, and thus makes longer sustain, which is prefered on classical guitars. We normally want a shorter, or controlable sustain. That´s the reason.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 1 2004 8:41:59
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3196
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: conde hermanos (in reply to Guest

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sean

<snip>

( a tube is more resistant to bending than a solid bar)

<snip>

Sean


If the tube and the solid bar are the same diameter and the same material, the bar is more resistant to bending. Do an experiment.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 3 2004 21:01:35
 
Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: conde hermanos (in reply to Guest

Sean,
Sorry, I've been away a bit and lost track of this post. Sounds like you're doing nice things there, good wishes mi amigo.
Cheers
Jim.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2004 21:50:53
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