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paco picado

 

Posts: 64
Joined: May 25 2007
 

Spanish language1 votes

This is a thread about language in general. I have lived in Germany and could survive if I went back there tomorrow, I was picking stuff up rapid, by the time I left. They say language learning doesn’t flow in a continua’s arc, like on a graph, but advances in steps, and what is also important, is the age at which u begin to learn. I would categorically say trying to learn a language fluent past the age of mid forties from scratch is virtually imposable. Unless you are a lucky freak. I also think the Spanish language is a weak language. A girl that taught at the Digami school of language in Almunecar, said learning Spanish is more about the culture than learning technique, she said Spanish a peasant language, compared to the extremely complex grammar and preciseness of the northern European languages, The beauty of Shakespeare, would never translate into such a base language as Spanish and another fluent Spanish speaker female friend said. I was speaking to my Spanish boyfriend on the dog and bone for an hour,and he was repeating the same dozen words over and over again, which where so vague it was almost like speaking to a monkey.
Cheers
Paco
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 13 2007 22:24:57
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 13 2007 23:08:46
 
Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: Spanish language (in reply to paco picado

Hey Paco,

Well I'm afraid I agree with Shroomy - Spanish is the most beautiful language. I remember hearing a girl from South America speak some years ago and I was struck by the clarity and resonance of it's sound. And when I was learning in Granada last year, my teacher said that it is important to use different phrases and not repeat the same one, so I don't quite understand what the girl speaking to her boyfriend meant.

However I do think you are right that you have a better chance of becoming fluent if you start at an early age. Still, I'm giving it my best shot, even though I might not have enough brain cells left.....

A
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 13 2007 23:21:52
 
paco picado

 

Posts: 64
Joined: May 25 2007
 

RE: Spanish language (in reply to Guest

Yeh, i agree, Fredrico Garcia Lorca fantastic I have heard, although I have never read any of his stuff.. Its just that I seem to have a very northern head on my shoulders, I'm 42, never lived in Spain for long enough, never gifted with languages. I reckon it would take me at least 10 years untill I could speak to a Gitano as if I was speaking in my native tongue. Plus the fact there aint a sausage, or a Wurst, or a chorizo to be earned playing flamenco, seems like all the hard flog in learning a lingo could be in vain. now if one was 20 years younger.
Paco
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 13 2007 23:25:50
 
musicmaker

 

Posts: 24
Joined: Jan. 23 2007
From: Lincoln,NE

RE: Spanish language (in reply to paco picado

You might also try the Epistles of Benito Juarez, the diaries of Cortez etc... and discover a very rich language filled with a positive attitude on life and nature. Noobie readers should start with Cien Anos de soledad...There is so much more to say but we have not enough time and space. The germanic languages, or better put proto european rooted languages are often very cold and calculated and this also includes english...perhaps because they see nature as an enemy (cold winters etc...)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 13 2007 23:53:50
 
Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: Spanish language (in reply to paco picado

quote:

ORIGINAL: paco picado
I would categorically say trying to learn a language fluent past the age of mid forties from scratch is virtually imposable. Unless you are a lucky freak.


My husband celebrated his 50th birthday in Spain. We'd been here about a year by then and he has never had a class of Spanish ( and hasn't to this day) yet he has always communicated. People here have a lot of patience with some one who trys whatever their age. I had classes but it felt like I had had to begin again when I actually came to live here. I had to learn to listen. I also learnt that it is not a skill or a talent it is simply working at it. That's not to say we are not lucky freaks but dont let it stop you trying.

Kate

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2007 0:03:04
 
Wannabee

 

Posts: 131
Joined: Jan. 13 2007
 

RE: Spanish language (in reply to paco picado

I'm not sure if this has anything to do with what the OP is suggesting, but perhaps...

I studied Spanish for about a year in Canada, both in classes and on my own. (using tape courses)
I then moved to Mexico to live and work, stayed there for a year and a half.
I felt that my Spanish was adequate to get me through most situations. I wouldn't say I was fluent, but I could have simple conversations and understand things on TV, and in most places where I needed to interact with people.

When I went to Spain however, it felt like I was starting from square UNO again.
Especially in Andalucia. The pronunciation is difficult enough with all that "th" stuff they do, but on top of that, they cut off all the word endings, mumble like they have a mouth full of potatoes, and also rattle through at 3 times the normal speed... AY DIOS MIO!

I seemed to be able to understand people on TV (some of them anyway) or people from other parts of Spain...but the Andalucians......UGG!

I'm not saying I agree with what the OP is suggesting, but I can see how someone might get that impression.

Suerte
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2007 4:54:56
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13232
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Spanish language (in reply to paco picado

quote:

Plus the fact there aint a sausage, or a Wurst, or a chorizo to be earned playing flamenco, seems like all the hard flog in learning a lingo could be in vain.


  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2007 10:38:26
 
John O.

Posts: 1718
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Darmstadt, Germany

RE: Spanish language (in reply to paco picado

quote:

This is a thread about language in general. I have lived in Germany and could survive if I went back there tomorrow, I was picking stuff up rapid, by the time I left. They say language learning doesn’t flow in a continua’s arc, like on a graph, but advances in steps, and what is also important, is the age at which u begin to learn. I would categorically say trying to learn a language fluent past the age of mid forties from scratch is virtually imposable. Unless you are a lucky freak. I also think the Spanish language is a weak language. A girl that taught at the Digami school of language in Almunecar, said learning Spanish is more about the culture than learning technique, she said Spanish a peasant language, compared to the extremely complex grammar and preciseness of the northern European languages, The beauty of Shakespeare, would never translate into such a base language as Spanish and another fluent Spanish speaker female friend said. I was speaking to my Spanish boyfriend on the dog and bone for an hour,and he was repeating the same dozen words over and over again, which where so vague it was almost like speaking to a monkey.
Cheers
Paco


Yeah my grandma learned Spanish in like a week. My friend told me that they're now teaching monkeys Spanish. But seriously you're right, a lot of words are used over and over, like el, la, lo, yo, tu and such. A peasant language it is, influenced by Latin, which we all know was a poor man's language - I mean just look at Latin America!!!

My mom and I moved to Germany when she was over 40, speaks fluent German and worked as a study coordinator for a university clinic. No offense to her, but she's not necessarily a genius.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2007 11:04:08
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Spanish language (in reply to Ricardo

Oops...I can sort of feel the temperature rising in this thread...

Can I please be boring and remind everyone to turn it down a bit and try no to get personal, even if you're feeling angry, otherwise this is going to turn into a 3 page flamewar, which is a waste of server space.

(Sorry Dominic )

Keep the Heid,

Ron

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2007 12:01:39
 
John O.

Posts: 1718
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Darmstadt, Germany

RE: Spanish language (in reply to Ron.M

Ron's right. No personal offence was meant by me, I admit I was being an ass - sorry...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2007 12:05:41
Guest

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2007 14:43:46
 
Bogdan1980

 

Posts: 370
Joined: May 23 2007
From: Frederick, MD

RE: Spanish language (in reply to paco picado

Hey Shroomy 726 (hello New Orleans)

I think Shroomy 726 has a point with Marquez and every language having its masterpieces. I used to think that German is very rough and unpolished and then as a I learned more and could read Goethe and Schiller (actually our teacher made us all do that) the language reveals itself.

And translation damages the beauty of the original work. Try reading Dostoevsky in Russian and English, big difference.

My wife is Amercian and I gave her Dostoevsky, she doesn't get much of it, it's hard to understand, so I think a lot of it is cultural differences too.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2007 14:59:33
 
John O.

Posts: 1718
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Darmstadt, Germany

RE: Spanish language (in reply to Guest

Shroomy, I hope that wasn't at me - I was being 100% sarcastic, I hope that came through there.

Centuries ago Latin was actually only the privilege of the few very well educated. Spanish speakers cover a huge piece of America and make up about 40% of the world population, they can hardly all be peasants. Monkeys have enough trouble with sign language and my grandma never tried to learn Spanish either. All languages often repeat articles and Latin America has little to do with the Latin language besides the language origin.

I love Spanish, always try to sing along with the cante when no one else is around. I'm learning Spanish at the moment and am having trouble getting the hang of it at the moment, to be honest.

So my intention was to be an ass to Paco Picado. I'd have laughed if he had simply agreed with me.

By the way, you're right about Germans, glad I'm not one...
(oops run, here comes Doitsujin!)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2007 15:06:09
Guest

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2007 15:18:06
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13232
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Spanish language (in reply to Ron.M

quote:

Can I please be boring and remind everyone to turn it down a bit and try no to get personal, even if you're feeling angry


Sorry Ron, you are right. I edited my post. Can I still say I have a "chorizo" for the author of the thread?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2007 18:52:15
 
John O.

Posts: 1718
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Darmstadt, Germany

RE: Spanish language (in reply to Ricardo

I liked it, thought it was funny. I'm sure he wouldn't mind...
"Spanish 101, biatch"

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2007 19:49:32
Guest

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2007 20:41:37
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Spanish language (in reply to Ricardo

LOL! Ricardo,
It's most unlike you to get upset in posts.

I think what Paco Picado was saying was that during his time living in Andalucia, that it was practically impossible for local Andalucian"not-bad" players to make any kind of a living out of it except playing basically for fun and perhaps the odd beer or vino....so carrying on from there said that why is it worth a "foreigner's" time to put the effort into learning the language, when it's a dead end street already.

A completely different situation from yourself.

All I can say is that don't choose Flamenco guitar playing as an easy way of making money (or even a steady living.)
Just do it because you enjoy it and see how far you can take it.
Some folk do and are able to play guitar all day and not have to turn up at some boring job at 8.30 in the morning.
But it still involves a lot of work.

It's really up to the individual..
I can offer no advice here...


His points on the language, I don't agree with and were pretty provoking with the "monkey" reference, but...hey...I know of plenty folk here in the UK who have about a dozen words of vocabulary, most of them expletives.

Paco's always been a provocative poster, but I think he tells the truth the way he sees it.

No need to get too angry or PC on these issues IMO.

BTW Ricardo...saying "I've got a Chorizo for you" sounds a bit Gay..
"Hey kid, wanna come over here and see this big chorizo I got for ya..."





cheers,

Ron

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2007 21:04:36

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
 

RE: Spanish language (in reply to paco picado

Yup, another HILARIOUS thread... I laughed out loud NUMEROUS times whilst reading it... thanks guys!

Jb

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¡Si esto no está en compas, esto no es el Flamenco!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2007 21:16:29
 
Sirjoe

 

Posts: 4
Joined: May 29 2006
 

RE: Spanish language (in reply to paco picado

If you don't speak Spanish, you're no flamenco.
That's the rule.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2007 6:55:21
 
John O.

Posts: 1718
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Darmstadt, Germany

RE: Spanish language (in reply to Sirjoe

Yup, same as English for blues/rock, and all belly dancers should know at least a little Moroccan...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2007 7:33:43
 
Estevan

Posts: 1890
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Spanish language (in reply to JBASHORUN

quote:

ORIGINAL: JBASHORUN

¡Si su no en compas, su no flamenco!


Bash, who's "su"?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2007 18:26:53

JBASHORUN

 

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Apr. 11 2011 19:39:24
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2007 19:06:32
 
Estevan

Posts: 1890
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Spanish language (in reply to JBASHORUN

quote:

ORIGINAL: JBASHORUN

quote:

quote:

LOL, the phrase means:

"If its not in compas, its not Flamenco!"

BUT I did use an online translation engine to translate it, so apologies if the wording is off!


LOL me too! I was going to add "and it's not Spanish, either!"


I was trying to figure out how the hell you came up with this, then I imagined putting it back through the translation engine and recognized what happened, it's pretty funny.
Since you left out the apostrophe in "it's", you got the translation "su" meaning his/hers/its, rather than "it is".

I think that what you want to say is "Si no está en compás, no es flamenco".
But we should get a real hispanohablante to tell us for sure.
Shroomy...?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2007 19:24:14
 
paco picado

 

Posts: 64
Joined: May 25 2007
 

RE: Spanish language (in reply to paco picado)1 votes

To be honest I can't remember what I wrote in the original text without, looking at it. But yeh. If U cant speak Spanish, and u cannot accompany Cante to a decent standard, then there is nothing else. Seranito said in the 80s I think solo flamenco guitar will one day equal in the concert hall, that of the solo Classical guitar. Well it never happened and never will, SOLO FLAMENCO GUITAR is dead. Thats why Faucher ( Affedis) is nearly going bust. There is absolutely NO market anymore with solo flamenco, unless u bring along a troupe, when was the last time anyone heard of Jaun Martin touring the country? Like Don Peron once said solo F Guitar gets boring after a few minutes, to the average punter
Paco
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2007 19:26:07

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
 

RE: Spanish language (in reply to Estevan

lol, Estevan!!! Sorry, my Spanish no es bien!!!

I translated it using this engine:

http://translation2.paralink.com/

I just tried again, but added the apostrophies, and this is what came up:

Si esto no está en compas, esto no es el Flamenco!

So pending intervention by any Spanish speaking members, I will ammend my signature asap.

Cheers,

Jb

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¡Si esto no está en compas, esto no es el Flamenco!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2007 19:32:34
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Spanish language (in reply to paco picado

The average listener doesnt listen classical as well as flamenco. Is classical dead because of that? Or Jazz, or blues, or opera, or folk, or techno....

Besides. Solo guitar changed since the 30s, where have you been man.

I have the feeling this thread will even become funnier, stay tuned JB!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2007 19:34:41
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13232
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Spanish language (in reply to paco picado

quote:

SOLO FLAMENCO GUITAR is dead. Thats why Faucher ( Affedis) is nearly going bust. There is absolutely NO market anymore with solo flamenco, unless u bring along a troupe, when was the last time anyone heard of Jaun Martin touring the country? Like Don Peron once said solo F Guitar gets boring after a few minutes, to the average punter


Are you just pushing people's button's or what? You have no clue man. Do you live in a box or something? Nuñez gave 100 guitar concerts last year, some of them were only guitar, not even cajon. PDL was on tour too, even though 3 years ago he was saying no more, at least coming to USA. Tomatito/Vicente toured, Chicuelo with Poveda and Duquende, etc etc., Paco Peña....How does Faucher involve the solo guitar life or death? How about, some guys finally got pissed at him for making money on others compositions all these years, and asked him to stop selling stuff he does not have rights too?

And finally what does D. Pohrens opinion have to do with it at all? Weren't you the guy who said earlier that no one liked YOUR solo playing or something, said your music was strange, and you got kicked out of a bar or something? Sounds like you are just venting PERSONAL frustrations with your own playing and experience with flamenco. Do you think THIS is the place for that? Considering folks here are fans, aficionados, enthusiasts, if not even PROFESSIONAL flamenco players? Perhaps if you don't find enough folks to commisserate with your situations, then it must be that flamenco guitar is dead, and having to learn spanish is pointless.

Anyway, I hope things change your attitude brighten up for you, because your comments and general negativity are borderline offensive to some.

Ricardo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2007 19:53:37

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
 

RE: Spanish language (in reply to paco picado

LOL, here we go! You may be right, Deniz!!!

Jb

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¡Si esto no está en compas, esto no es el Flamenco!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2007 19:57:25
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