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Bogdan1980

Posts: 370
Joined: May 23 2007
From: Frederick, MD

Delcamp Forum

So is anyone registered on Delcamp?
Man I got into some heated argument there. I think they are sort of brainwashed bunch. First of all they have a list of rules that's longer than US constitution. You can't make references to amazon, or other websites, you have spell out emails, uploading something like an attachment you have to have a permission for that, and God forbid you talk about one topic in an inapprorpiate section. Moderators are all over you.

And the worst, they are all stuck up on copyright, which is fine with me, but I don't get things like copyrighting youtube video. It's not like I can own it, I watch it once. Granted you can now copy them with some rogue software but that's not something I want to do, it's not like I can put it on DVD and sell it. The webmaster wrote this whole piece about how you can make links to these videos but not those videous, sick. And then there are composers like Piazzolla who died 20 years ago, and they are still under copyright. That's sick, Piazzolla is dead and I don't see why his children need to profit from his sheet music. Someone asked for Milonga Del Angel scores and the moderators were like: well it's not public domain you should buy it.

It's two pages long! And I have it and I'll give it away for free because there are some people in music schools that can't afford $30 a piece. Plus it's for educational purposes.

Ultimately this is my opinion and I stand by it, and all those guys where like: well these are our rules go somewhere else, It's like Orwell's 1984.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2007 14:29:01

edgar884

Posts: 1975
Joined: Nov. 16 2005

RE: Delcamp Forum (in reply to Bogdan1980)

Garbage man.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2007 14:39:18

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Delcamp Forum (in reply to Bogdan1980)

lol i love reading forum arguments

( I dont know this forum)

I know where you coming from and i am with you but to be fair.. it is they'r forum, if you dont like it you can find a forum whos rules you agree with and hang out there or open your own.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2007 14:44:52

Bogdan1980

Posts: 370
Joined: May 23 2007
From: Frederick, MD

RE: Delcamp Forum (in reply to Bogdan1980)

I know, it's like is it a forum or a country club?

Forum is a place for free exchange of ideas and thoughts, and I shouldn't read a 3 mile long rules statement before I register. It should be entertaining and useful and some people apparently take it too seriously. I mean, it's not like it's a place where you can say: Question is addressed only to Paco De Lucia, how to ...?" A bunch of people who may not know squat about something talking nonsense.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2007 14:48:05

Bogdan1980

Posts: 370
Joined: May 23 2007
From: Frederick, MD

RE: Delcamp Forum (in reply to Bogdan1980)

Florian
Technically yes, but what would the forum be without members? Actually one of the moderators said the same thing, which is like in Soviet Union, when you cam to the store and the service sucked and you complained the clerk would say: "you don't like it go somewhere else", because they didn't care. If someone thinks differently you should be able to accept it and it's up to me to decide whether I wan't to stick around.
Well Delcamp guys hear something they don't like, they cancel your account! How about that?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2007 14:51:20

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Delcamp Forum (in reply to Bogdan1980)

quote:

Well Delcamp guys hear something they don't like, they cancel your account! How about that?

well thats pretty crappy, i guess another reminder how great this place is.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2007 15:01:07

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Delcamp Forum (in reply to Bogdan1980)

Bogdan,

I'm old enough to remember multiple large stores selling sheet music in a medium sized town. The sheet music sold for usually around one or two dollars at most unless it was a large score. With the advent of the home computer, cheap copiers and the internet the sheet music stores vanished and prices skyrocketed. Why would anyone publish sheet music when there's no profit in it? If you're making copies you don't have any right to complain about the high prices.

John Shelton

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2007 15:04:22

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: Delcamp Forum (in reply to Florian)

quote:

quote:

Well Delcamp guys hear something they don't like, they cancel your account! How about that?

well thats pretty crappy, i guess another reminder how great this place is.

I once made a post on a forum run by a particular luthiery brand, and made the mistake of mentioning A DIFFERENT brand in a positive context. WOW... within the same day my post had been deleted by admin.

I also posted once on a forum run by a particular rock band... to cut a long story short, the fans were such brainwashed ****s that I never posted there again.

Yes, FF really is one of the better forums on the net.

Jb

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¡Si esto no está en compas, esto no es el Flamenco!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2007 15:17:37

Bogdan1980

Posts: 370
Joined: May 23 2007
From: Frederick, MD

RE: Delcamp Forum (in reply to Bogdan1980)

jshelton5040

Well, but don't you think if people kept selling music for a buck or two there wouldn't be a need to copy? It's like with the CDs and music. I read somewhere that it costs $1.60 to produce a CD. In Barnes and Noble it costs $20, talk about a profit margin. I would much rather spend $5 on a genuine CD than have recorded CDs everywhere, forgetting which one is which. But until CDs are $20 a pop people will continue sharing music. Of course you can say that until people keep sharing music selling CDs is not profitable so they are expensive. It's a vicious circle

.
I think the problem is that everyone's pretty greedy. Copyright wouldn't be an issue at all if the money weren't involved. As PhD candidate at a university I have to publish. I've published in several journals and these are of course covered by copyright. To me it's there so that no one can say they are the authors of what I've written. Money is not really (shouldn't be) an issue.
I especially have hard time listening to all this copyright stuff when it comes to those musicians who are exorbitantly rich now.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2007 15:18:08

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Delcamp Forum (in reply to Bogdan1980)

the composer has to be dead for 50 or is it 80 years before somebody can freely play/transcribe their music

thats way you dont have to pay to arrange or play bach,mozart etc

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Don't give up...
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2007 15:34:00

Bogdan1980

Posts: 370
Joined: May 23 2007
From: Frederick, MD

RE: Delcamp Forum (in reply to Bogdan1980)

Yeah, it's actually 75. Do you think it makes sense?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2007 15:38:20

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Delcamp Forum (in reply to Bogdan1980)

yes of course. if your father wrote the tune yesterday im shure you would be pissed if you didnt get paid from airplay and sheetmusic

or stairway to heaven or....sgnt pepper

but i dont agree with the rules of not piblishing a sheet or 2 on the web. as long as one doesnt buy books just for the sake of scaning them putting them up on the web

i think a "healthy"

sharing is good for all parts, both artist and music lover

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2007 16:41:06

Bogdan1980

Posts: 370
Joined: May 23 2007
From: Frederick, MD

RE: Delcamp Forum (in reply to Bogdan1980)

Thank you! Sharing rules, especially if it's people who study music. If you become Paco and perform and make money, that's another story.

But with the whole 75 year stuff, it's actually after the composer died, so technically it enables third generation to profit. I think people should make their own living if it's their grand or great grand father who wrote the music piece.

But back to the topic, Delcamp Forum is like a communist country. I know I'm from one.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2007 16:56:10

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Delcamp Forum (in reply to Bogdan1980)

quote:

And then there are composers like Piazzolla who died 20 years ago, and they are still under copyright. That's sick, Piazzolla is dead and I don't see why his children need to profit from his sheet music. Someone asked for Milonga Del Angel scores and the moderators were like: well it's not public domain you should buy it. It's two pages long! And I have it and I'll give it away for free because there are some people in music schools that can't afford $30 a piece. Plus it's for educational purposes.

Bogodan,
You still can't "give it away for free" on this site either, I'm afraid...
or publish links to "free" stuff as we are subject to the LAW, whether we agree with it or not.

Read part4 of the forum agreement.

cheers,

Ron

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2007 17:43:42

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: Delcamp Forum (in reply to Bogdan1980)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bogdan1980
But back to the topic, Delcamp Forum is like a communist country. I know I'm from one.

I don't agree. It's a forum set up by a person or a group. If you don't live by their rules you're free to leave and join an other one. You shouldn't spoil the fun on their own forum.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2007 18:09:09

Bogdan1980

Posts: 370
Joined: May 23 2007
From: Frederick, MD

RE: Delcamp Forum (in reply to Bogdan1980)

Ron M

Ok so how about some Paco scores and Vicente Amigo and others sheet music posted in tabs section?
Maybe I'm just not following but those are posted to share for free and they look like there are not just scribled on the paper?

And if tabs made by guys like us who just listen and tab themselves are Ok, than how come there are legal actions against some tab sites?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2007 18:19:01

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Delcamp Forum (in reply to Bogdan1980)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bogdan1980

Well, but don't you think if people kept selling music for a buck or two there wouldn't be a need to copy?

The fact that the sheet music stores are gone and sheet music is freightfully expensive as well as scarce would seem to refute the above statement.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2007 18:25:36

Bogdan1980

Posts: 370
Joined: May 23 2007
From: Frederick, MD

RE: Delcamp Forum (in reply to Bogdan1980)

Yes you're right. Although I was in Chicago about a year ago and there was this little store right off Michigan next to Millenium park where this old and very funny and witty man was selling boxes of scores. It was the whole store devoted to that and he had failry reasonable prices. I mean for 10 bucks you could get a very decent collection of pieces in one booklet. I guess some people just hang on or maybe it's not about money to them.

A lot of stuff today is freightfully expensive, that's true. I mean there are sites that sell 1 composition for about $40. What are they thinking.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2007 18:30:59

Mark2

Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Delcamp Forum (in reply to Bogdan1980)

Hogwash. You don't get to set the price of something you didn't create. Do you go into a gas station and tell them since the oil compnay is already rich you are only willing to pay .35 a gallon or you'll steal it? A CD costs a buck and change to replicate, but your not thinking about recording costs, distribution, promotion, etc. Barnes and Noble has to pay rent, etc, and they don't get the CD's for 1.00-They pay 8-9 dollars for popular cd's and at least five dollars for indie cd's.

I'm no saint-I've got burned CD's and I've burned a few for friends, but I don't pretend that if CD's only cost 5.00 that I would never burn one. That's BS! Blanks are free after mail in rebate, so it's 5.00 vs. free. You'd probably burn them anyway, then make up another excuse.
Now onto copywrite: Maybe I shouldn't get to leave my home to my kids. Maybe I should have to give it up to the government after I croak.........uh no. A musical compostion is no different-it's a creation of the composer, and it's rights should be respected or else there will be no professional composers, or recordings-just amatuers, and we have plenty of those as it is. If all of a sudden people were offering you serious money to publish your work in a book, you'd be singing a different tune.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bogdan1980

jshelton5040

Well, but don't you think if people kept selling music for a buck or two there wouldn't be a need to copy? It's like with the CDs and music. I read somewhere that it costs $1.60 to produce a CD. In Barnes and Noble it costs $20, talk about a profit margin. I would much rather spend $5 on a genuine CD than have recorded CDs everywhere, forgetting which one is which. But until CDs are $20 a pop people will continue sharing music. Of course you can say that until people keep sharing music selling CDs is not profitable so they are expensive. It's a vicious circle .
I think the problem is that everyone's pretty greedy. Copyright wouldn't be an issue at all if the money weren't involved. As PhD candidate at a university I have to publish. I've published in several journals and these are of course covered by copyright. To me it's there so that no one can say they are the authors of what I've written. Money is not really (shouldn't be) an issue.
I especially have hard time listening to all this copyright stuff when it comes to those musicians who are exorbitantly rich now.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2007 18:31:30

Bogdan1980

Posts: 370
Joined: May 23 2007
From: Frederick, MD

RE: Delcamp Forum (in reply to Bogdan1980)

The gas analogy is actually accurate. I think it would be a reasonable statement, because oil companies do rip everyone off. Will seee what kind of tune you'll sing when you'll have to pay 4 - 5 bucks a gallon?

As far as money, I think, it just is more important and downright critical for some people and they'll squeeze out every penny whether they need it or not and these days copyright stuff comes down to ridiculous like tabs issues and youtube etc.

I would like my stuff published in a book but I also wouldn't support charging 120 bucks for my textbook (which is what we have to deal with in our university). There are reasonable limits to everything and there is also human greed.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2007 18:41:12

Mark2

Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Delcamp Forum (in reply to Bogdan1980)

I'll buy a hybrid or hopefully an electric car, which I want to do at the current prices-it doesn't have to go to 5.00
You really can't measure what you think someone's "greed" might be without knowing their entire situation, which you will never know. When you are a PhD with a fat paycheck for teaching a few classes, doing research, getting a deal on premium housing, and you have a wife and three kids, you just may alter what you think is greedy. 120.00 for a textbook?-yeah I know because I have a kid in college, but you COULD simply post your texbook on the net and let kid's have it free...........I wouldn't expect you to do that and I don't think you will. I'd bet you'll want your kids and yes, your grandaughter, if your fortunate enough to have one, to benefit from the long hours you spend writing it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2007 19:08:54

Guest

RE: Delcamp Forum (in reply to Bogdan1980)

Bogdan

I am a record producer. If you think you can make even a simple record at a reasonable level of quality, with only cante, guitar and palmas, with mucisians working for very little or for friendship, design, photograph and print the portada (cover, notes etc.) and pay for even 1000 copies for only $1.60.......................Please come and work for me: I need to know your secret.

And if I see people making pirate copies of one of my CD I have a great urge to kick them in the testicles, because they are taking bread out of the mouths of the families of POOR musicians.

Sean

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2007 19:34:33

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Delcamp Forum (in reply to Bogdan1980)

Well if there would be a way, i would pay ONLY the musician 10 Euros for a CD, instead of 18 Euros for the record company and for the distributors, so there is 2 Euros left for the musician.

But as long as CDs cost 18 Euros, i will think 33 times before buying it. Simple as that.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2007 20:00:29

Bogdan1980

Posts: 370
Joined: May 23 2007
From: Frederick, MD

RE: Delcamp Forum (in reply to Bogdan1980)

Deniz is absolutely right. I also know that out of those 120 dollars for a textbook the writer gets 5% or so, the rest goes to the publisher. And only God knows what pays for operations and what ends up in the CEOs pocket, same with record industry.

Sean
I don't have a secret, I said I read somewhere on the net (maybe they have a secret). But I will say that I work in organizational performance improvement field and we could see how we could cut your costs and optimize processes

.
But if we were able to bring your costs down say 15%, would you lower your prices 15%?
No harm intended, just curious.

Ok guys, this is getting into too many issues, let's go back to FLAMENCO, ...maybe one day there will be a copyright issues forum

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2007 20:17:26

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Delcamp Forum (in reply to Bogdan1980) 1 votes

quote:

Ok so how about some Paco scores and Vicente Amigo and others sheet music posted in tabs section?
Maybe I'm just not following but those are posted to share for free and they look like there are not just scribled on the paper?

Bogdan,
I must admit I never look at the tabs section because I don't read tabs.
I think what we try to do here is "trying to keep the heid" (as we say in Scotland) and slip wee bits and pieces by.

I personally have given links to my OWN homepage, to the FULL mp3 track of some artists I would like others to hear.
I've also posted links to my OWN homepage, with hard-to-get live performances from Flamenco heros in the early 70's which were recorded live off TV and probably even the BBC don't have the original tapes.

The criteria I have is this...

1. Anything you post should not raise an objection either from the artist or representative.
2. Balance it out....If you host a single track from a not-too-well-known artist you are enthusiastic about, are you giving away his/her work OR exposing a piece of his/her work to more than 1000 Flamenco enthusiasts on this Forum?
3. If the person or representative complains...take it down immediately.

This seems like commonsense to me.

This "Everything should be free" thing really pisses me off.

Gerardo Nuñez is a famous guitarist, gives concerts and schools and is certainly not lacking in a few bob.
So...if someone posts a fileshare link to his complete teaching DVD...is that OK..because it's for educational purposes anyway?

Anyway, whatever you think, the real world is like this...
If an artist or representative wishes to take action against a website, it will be against the person who has registered that website (and is traceable), also the person or persons who jointly administer or moderate the site.
YOU won't have anything to worry about.
YOU can just keep sitting at your keyboard and keep tapping your support (but not financial!)

I applaud your spirit Bogdan, but would you applaud me if I had to write up a sign of my truly held beliefs, views and values about the USSR in the 60's and then invite someone else to hold it up in front of a Soviet tank?

If you feel really strongly about copyright then there is an easy way to solve this....

Register a site called Bogdan1980Free.org with your own traceable address and post all the all the stuff you think should be made free available to everyone.

You see where I'm coming from?

cheers,

Ron

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A good guitar might be a good guitar
But it takes a woman to break your heart

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2007 21:21:54

Bogdan1980

Posts: 370
Joined: May 23 2007
From: Frederick, MD

RE: Delcamp Forum (in reply to Bogdan1980)

I'm actually thinking about it, good idea Ron. I just need to go back to former USSR, and then good luck with any litigation

.

And Ron, I never at any point sad everything should be free. All I said is that sometimes publishers and record companies get a little outrageous with their prices and litigation attempts (like tabs, youtube, etc.). Especilly here in America, everybody sues for everything.

Anyway, let's move on. Piece

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2007 21:36:54

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Delcamp Forum (in reply to Bogdan1980)

quote:

Especilly here in America, everybody sues for everything.

that is such crap ! no need to get racialist... better watch it or il sue you

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2007 21:45:43

Bogdan1980

Posts: 370
Joined: May 23 2007
From: Frederick, MD

RE: Delcamp Forum (in reply to Bogdan1980)

Lol.

yeah have u heard about this guy suing for 50mill, because a dry cleaners lost his pants? I mean what do u have to be thinking.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2007 22:09:57

gato

Posts: 322
Joined: Jun. 9 2007

RE: Delcamp Forum (in reply to Bogdan1980)

'Seems like money is always quite an issue. The world is hardly free, unless it's bought and paid for!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 13 2007 6:56:47

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Delcamp Forum (in reply to Bogdan1980)

quote:

Ok guys, this is getting into too many issues, let's go back to FLAMENCO, ...

Yeah, and who started the off topic thread???

Anyway to be fair I checked out your "decamp" forum to see how it was relevant to general flamenco topic. I saw one thread about a guy having problems playing "slow", and all these guys saying be careful with metronomes, they can make you not have a good sense of timing and musicality. All I can say for myself, if I joined a forum like that it would "welcome to HELLLLLLL, MMUHa ha !".

Then I saw the flamenco triplet with some french girl teaching Rodrigo y Gabriela BS compas. No thanks. So this is all off topic amigo. By the way, about recodings/music copyright, etc. Well it is fine to defend an uneducated opinion, but even when someone like Sean comes and tries to explain how it works, you are still like "well I read it on the internet...somewhere". Man, too bad you got knocked off your dream forum, but just give it a rest now, since you don't have a clue really.

Really, back to flamenco now would be best.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 13 2007 15:20:04