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RE: Is this a bad time to tell you all we playing with Juan Martin ?   You are logged in as Guest
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henrym3483

Posts: 1552
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: Is this a bad time to tell you a... (in reply to Mark2

quote:

Juan did play with Eva Yerbabuena but it was Evas husband on 2cd guitar who actually did the real work. I saw one of the shows on that tour. Eva danced brilliantly, her husband was amazing and Juan sat in the spotlight with his guitar hardly in the mix and got all the applause at the end.


ive seen some vids of eva on youtube she's pretty amazing, the dancer i saw during one performance i saw by jaun was luisa chicano, pretty amazing dancer.
i hear his dancers tend to be pretty good overall in his show.

guy i saw in paco penas last tour was amazing the guy had such power,i mean the floorboards and the ground in the front row shook when he danced, he made joaqin cortes look like a fairy.though being fair joaquin seems liek a fairly light guy.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 21 2007 18:22:40
 
Mark2

Posts: 1692
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Is this a bad time to tell you a... (in reply to koella

quote:

ORIGINAL: koella

You forgot 6.

6. JM broke both my arms and did bite of my strings when he found out I was Flo from the foro.



bingo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 21 2007 18:25:44
 
paco picado

 

Posts: 64
Joined: May 25 2007
 

RE: Is this a bad time to tell you a... (in reply to Florian)1 votes

Iam speaking from a non aficianados point of view. Yes they all sound differant to me, but to your average audiance, which in most cases is 90% or there about, of the time, even in Tabernas, unless it is an audiance of Flamenco guitarists, in which case it would be a nightmare to play anyway. Then all the modern styles sounds like PDL. I have heard this comment so often from say Jazz guitarists, that such and such a guitarist is great but sounds like PDL, which of course is not true, they have all evolved their styles. But most flamencos play to an audiance that doesent know the differance from your PDL or your Jaun Martins of this world.
Cheers
Paco
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 21 2007 18:55:15
 
henrym3483

Posts: 1552
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: Is this a bad time to tell you a... (in reply to paco picado

my guitar mates tend to like the tomatito and paco stuff i play on cd some evenings and dislike vicente for some unknown reason, personally i like vicentes playing but you can't account for taste or personal preference, but even my girlfriend who plays violin admittedly say shes notices an immediate disctinction between the modern and trad i listen to though she prefers the trad sounding stuff as she can "indentify" with it more easily, whereas when i played some stuff by canizares she was WTF

that dosn't sound remotely like flamenco.im still trying to get my head around canizares stuff.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 21 2007 19:22:25
 
wiglebot

Posts: 39
Joined: Nov. 15 2007
 

RE: Is this a bad time to tell you a... (in reply to henrym3483

Sometimes Juan M. plays intro progression in his music -- Am+9 -- Asus2 -- Em+9 -- B11-7 then it is right back into Em -- D -- G -- Am.... I don't listen to his music, but again, love his books.

1. PdL -- Luzia
2. Gerardo Nuñez -- Jucal

I listen to those everyday, But watching Paco Pena about 15 years ago introduced me to Flamenco -- yea, I was raised red neck and had to seek culture.

Eliot Fisk is phenomenal -- beyond words. I think Grisha studies with him -- correct me if I am wrong.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 21 2007 20:28:34
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Is this a bad time to tell you a... (in reply to paco picado

quote:

Iam speaking from a non aficianados point of view. Yes they all sound differant to me, but to your average audiance, which in most cases is 90% or there about, of the time, even in Tabernas, unless it is an audiance of Flamenco guitarists, in which case it would be a nightmare to play anyway. Then all the modern styles sounds like PDL. I have heard this comment so often from say Jazz guitarists, that such and such a guitarist is great but sounds like PDL, which of course is not true, they have all evolved their styles. But most flamencos play to an audiance that doesent know the differance from your PDL or your Jaun Martins of this world.
Cheers


faIr enough Paco but a guitarist shouldnt develop theyr style acording to a unknowing, uninterested , uninformed audience.

thats another thing that made Paco a king, he took audiences on different trips all the time, forced them to share his vision, he dictated the artist he was and he sold it not the audience.

I mean to those people it dont matter what you do, as long as they get to be seen there. If its not this its another play, same thing to them.

you could play wahtever you want to them , they wont applaud you, they will applaud your Artist Bio written in the program.

if everyone catered for people who dont care about the art form, most of us will not be here because we would be uninspired.

And if JM is not worried about pleasing guitarists just general uninformed audiences (fair enough) but then why is it such a surrprise that he is getting criticised in a guitar forum ? they probably talking very higly of him right now at a midlle class, trendy , culturaly aware wanna be, anual Spanish theme party in Yorkshire.

there are no accidents or coincidences, everyone gets out what they put in.

_____________________________

Rest In Peace Ron, I will never ever forget you my friend.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 22 2007 6:53:34

stephen hill

 

Posts: 300
Joined: Feb. 16 2004
From: La Herradura, Granada, Spain

RE: Is this a bad time to tell you a... (in reply to Florian)1 votes

my two pennies worth, I have been his repairman luthier for a number of years now, so ,my opinion of juan is pretty good. He is a great businessman, makes more money at flamenco that most of us here, plays pretty well, and has inspired thousands of people to start playing with his books. Is he a fake... how many of us are fakes...?! are WE really flamenco. what is that .. REALLY flamenco?

_____________________________

stephen hill - granada spain
http://www.spanishguitars.co.uk
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 22 2007 9:45:41
 
Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: Is this a bad time to tell you a... (in reply to Florian

quote:

they wont applaud you, they will applaud your Artist Bio written in the program.


Do you know I've often thought that when I've been to see someone famous - how much do people think what they are seeing and hearing is really good, and how much is their appreciation just a reflection of what the audience has read about them? Sort of 'everyone says he's good, so he must be'.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 22 2007 10:11:03

stephen hill

 

Posts: 300
Joined: Feb. 16 2004
From: La Herradura, Granada, Spain

RE: Is this a bad time to tell you a... (in reply to Ailsa

thats so true. its the same for guitar makers also. the label says it all.....

_____________________________

stephen hill - granada spain
http://www.spanishguitars.co.uk
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 22 2007 10:22:46
 
koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: Is this a bad time to tell you a... (in reply to stephen hill

quote:

ORIGINAL: stephen hill
s he a fake... how many of us are fakes...?! are WE really flamenco. what is that .. REALLY flamenco?


I think the answer is quite simple.
Fake is when you claim to be something that you are not. Like claiming to be to be in the top3 of best players. Or letting other people say it and leave it that way.

I think he's really flamenco, and so is everyone that manages to get really into it. But he's no more flamenco then the best player of, say the village of Rondena. Even though that person will not have as much money and swimming pools.

Ah, lets leave it. People that don't understand this are not worth a discussion.

And for the money thing. People who get real rich by doing something, are mostly not known for their integrity.
And integrity is a quality that is very important in being a REAL flamenco IMO.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 22 2007 11:22:23
 
koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: Is this a bad time to tell you a... (in reply to henrym3483

Why can't he just say in an interview:

Yes I know, people like PDL, Nunez and Tomatito are the best. I am just a person that was in the right place in the right time, but I enjoy bringing flamenco all around the world. So I keep doing that and people enjoy my music.

That would be nice.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 22 2007 11:27:22
 
Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: Is this a bad time to tell you a... (in reply to koella

quote:

That would be nice.


Yeah that level of honesty would be really refreshing. Like a nice cool beer on a hot day. Sorry mind is wandering here - getting into holiday mode ready for Saturday
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 22 2007 11:54:10

stephen hill

 

Posts: 300
Joined: Feb. 16 2004
From: La Herradura, Granada, Spain

RE: Is this a bad time to tell you a... (in reply to koella

I agree Koella, integrity and honesty is the most important , in everything really.

_____________________________

stephen hill - granada spain
http://www.spanishguitars.co.uk
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 22 2007 13:16:50
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Is this a bad time to tell you a... (in reply to Mark2

quote:

You forgot 6.

6. JM broke both my arms and did bite of my strings when he found out I was Flo from the foro.


I wasent born yesterday you know, i have a plan for that ......gonna walk up ahead introduce myself as Aloysuis and say " - here comes Flo now" and point to ALO..." see what he does.

quote:

integrity and honesty is the most important


yeah i know

_____________________________

Rest In Peace Ron, I will never ever forget you my friend.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 22 2007 13:49:56
 
paco picado

 

Posts: 64
Joined: May 25 2007
 

RE: Is this a bad time to tell you a... (in reply to Florian

PDL's style was not accepted at the time, meaning 70s 80s, it was partley because of his pedigre and family conections that his style was accepted. I remember a review by D. Porhon, sorry for spelling. He said that Sirroco sounded odd, and out of Compas, which it did to me on first listing, it was only because of his standing, and the fact solo flamenco guitar was stagnent at the time, that it was accepted as the norm. We are all programed to what is acceptible or is hip as far as music is concerned. If you or me or the next doors cat had made an album like Sirroco, before Paco did, it would have been ridiculed, at the time
P.P.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 22 2007 19:33:49
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13288
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Is this a bad time to tell you a... (in reply to paco picado

quote:

If you or me or the next doors cat had made an album like Sirroco, before Paco did, it would have been ridiculed, at the time


Nah man. Paco WAS ridiculed too. Pohren's book (RIP) is proof. The ridicule was BS. That cat nor you or I could do what Paco did. That is the point of what that kind of artistic move means. In other words, PLEASE man.... make the next sirocco and put it out NOW!..... waiting.....

I won't critic juan martin, but I was worried that if he DID read what Florian has said on the forum, what if he unleashed one of these pheasants after our poor friend...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2007 5:26:55
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Is this a bad time to tell you a... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

what if he unleashed one of these pheasants after our poor friend...


lol

I dont think i have ever heard anyone more Australian than that guy in the video

just curious , is that what you guys think we all talk like ?

_____________________________

Rest In Peace Ron, I will never ever forget you my friend.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2007 6:31:29
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13288
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Is this a bad time to tell you a... (in reply to Florian

quote:

just curious , is that what you guys think we all talk like ?


Nah. We know you ALL sound like the crocodile guy. I mean the guys. The shirlies sound like a cross between Nicole Kidman and Olivia Newton john... wrawht-o?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2007 6:50:46
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Is this a bad time to tell you a... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Nah. We know you ALL sound like the crocodile guy.


Crikey its true what they say about the AMericans infidels, imperialist bustards, eurotrash poofs, communists trash dont care or know anything about other cultures just themselfs.

Well mate, i can assure you fair dinkum that thats a bloody myth mate, we dont all bloody talk like that....bloody oath! some of us are more civil laised.



Actually serious, I had a singer from Spain stop to say hello on myspace and said something like " - Oleee to flamenco in Austria"

I wanted to say something but...how do you say something like that without sounding condocending

_____________________________

Rest In Peace Ron, I will never ever forget you my friend.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2007 7:01:45
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13288
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Is this a bad time to tell you a... (in reply to Florian

quote:

Dont care or know anything about other cultures just themselfs.


Sorry, who?... what cultures???

I know Australians carry big knifes to cut the bush of the outback, but thats it.

The other day in the bar, the TV had Adalaide soccor team playing and these guys were argueing what country they were from. I said Austrailia, cause I know you and Alo, and they thought I was some genius and starting buying me drinks! Brilliant!!!! Cryowkee!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2007 7:23:01
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Is this a bad time to tell you a... (in reply to Ricardo

Hey Flo,
I hope you have a nice little fluffy cuddly kangaroo toy to present Uncle Juan with at the end of the show to show your appreciation!
(To Juan with much afecion from your No.1 Fan.....Florian)

Will be thinking of you on Sunday amigo!

cheers,

Ron

_____________________________

A good guitar might be a good guitar
But it takes a woman to break your heart
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2007 23:00:33
 
Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Is this a bad time to tell you a... (in reply to paco picado

Am I hallucinating?

Why is Paco de Lucias Sirocco even being mentioned in a Juan Martin thread? What is the comparison? Let me see....probably most technically challenging, influential and pivotal recording in flamenco history that changed flamenco composition for the next 25 years to ...probably the 3rd best guitar player in the world.

As for what is really flamenco or really art you can make the same comparison between fast food burgers and a 5 star meal at the Savoy. They are both food...they both end up down the drain at the end....but organically grown ingredients, lovingly shred, boiled, strained, reduced, caramelised into subtle and exciting flavours by a master chef, each taste contrasting and complementing the other, artistically presented, satisfying the eyes, taste buds and appetite.
Now that does not mean there isn't a huge market for fast food burgers. In fact, the majority of people might prefer them to some overpriced "toffee nosed" food. The gourmet might even enjoy one as a change now and again from his rich diet.

The point is once your palate has been educated, you instantly know whether something is real, or genuine or artistic. This thread has had so much response for just such a reason. It is the Flamenco gourmets who don't need to be told Sirocco is a work of genius...they already know when they hear it!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 24 2007 21:37:22
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Is this a bad time to tell you a... (in reply to Pimientito

Pimiento,
To be honest, I don't need Sirocco to give me a Flamenco experience.
I can already hear from say, Terremoto and Manuel Morao that "Flamenco" itself is the great Art with all sorts of Artists buzzing around it's flame.
PdL is just another player who came with a different slant and admittedly added some chords and technique which stimulated potential players at a time when Flamenco was becoming stagnant and seen as "old people's music" amongst the young.
That's why PdL and Camaron are so celebrated IMO.
The fact that Gerardo's music has been accepted by the Classical establishment of Russia or any other country doesn't make that Art any better or worse for me, or justify it's existence.
For me anyway, Flamenco has never needed to be approved by anybody.

cheers,

Ron

_____________________________

A good guitar might be a good guitar
But it takes a woman to break your heart
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 24 2007 22:15:48
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Is this a bad time to tell you a... (in reply to Ron.M

I am hungry now thanks Pimientito

_____________________________

Rest In Peace Ron, I will never ever forget you my friend.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2007 0:55:35
 
Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Is this a bad time to tell you a... (in reply to Florian

I'm hungry too...perhaps some pata negra?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2007 1:46:50
Guest

RE: Is this a bad time to tell you a... (in reply to Pimientito

quote:

What is the comparison?

its like comparing crayfish and pig slops
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2007 4:19:42
 
gato

Posts: 322
Joined: Jun. 9 2007
 

RE: Is this a bad time to tell you a... (in reply to henrym3483)1 votes

What's all of this I read??? It's just more names and more comparisons in the topic of flamenco players. It's all just more talk, and though it's personal opinions and I'm sure it means a lot to you, that's all it is, it's just talk. Go to the flamenco shows and take it in, and listen to the cd's and take it in, and learn from the scores and books and lessons, and take it in; then pick up your guitar and play it. Do that with the same passion that you make comparisons for no real creative reason and you will become a pretty good guitarist or composer yourself, and, that's all that really matters....I don't want to make anyone angry here, but do you ever feel inspired to play and compose on your influences? 'Cause that's all they are, just influences. And there is a great big world out there to create about; Your life, and your surroundings and your relationships with real people. I'm sure that a lot of you can! Use the forum to talk about that process and I'm also sure that you would have a pretty good website too!

Gary

Peace.....
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2007 7:58:55
 
Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Is this a bad time to tell you a... (in reply to Ron.M

Hi Ron, I see your point of view but I am talking about something else. What you are talking about is artistry in Flamenco, which to save confusion I will call "arte". I won't define it here but everyone knows what it is like to be moved by a great flamenco performance. You give good examples with Terremoto, Carmen Amaya etc.

What I am talking about is the transcendance of flamenco to "ART" That means that it can be compared to great paintings, great works of literature, classic movies, musical compositions and hold its own against them in terms of artistic content.
I noted on a recent trip to the UK that Jeremy Clarkson wrote 4 of the top 10 best selling books. Does that make him an artist? Is that a body of classic literature? I think not. Therfore sales and public popularity are not benchmarks for artistic content!

I am sure that the first New orleans Jazz bands did not foresee Jazz developing into a high art form. Flamenco was originally Arte only appreciated by Andalucian gypsies. The reason Gato why the same names keep getting thrown around again and again and again is because very few people in Flamenco have transcended their arte to Art. Sirocco is a work of art. I am sorry but it was not just "another player with some added chords and technique" It was a pivotal recording in the development of flamenco music. The fact that other artists and musicians recognise Gerardos composition as important and worthy of orchestration is hugely significant. We are witnessing the arrival of flameco as an internationally recognised art form. Don't worry, it wont stop any of us enjoying flamenco arte!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2007 11:34:43
 
Stu

Posts: 1940
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Is this a bad time to tell you a... (in reply to Pimientito

arghh jeez! I know forums are for lively debate and sharing viewpoints but this constant yammering about the whys and wherefores of john martins credentials and artistic merits, is tiresome. Surely the bottom line is.... He loves flamenco, just like all of us. He wouldn't have spent his whole life learning and teaching it otherwise! Who cares who's the best in the world, not the top players i'm sure. He's one of us so quit grinding the imaginary axe! Lets just wait to see what happens with the gig. I look forward to the report flo.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2007 15:09:44
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Is this a bad time to tell you a... (in reply to Stu

Well its done :-)

the collaboration got scraped because the show went over time so we did our bits, Eliot Fisk did his bit and Juan did his bit.

Now do you want me to be honest about what i tghout or do you want me to be polite and respectfull ? your call , i can go either way get back to me on that.

I didnt have time to talk to Juan, didnt even meet whenever he was around we were on stage playing whenever we were around he was on stage.

I did meet Eliot Fisk on the coridor brifely, he was nice, mentioned that i am good friends with Grisha etc, I did see him in on the side of that stage getting into it, it was a honour. His playing was brilliant, you can imagine how we felled having to follow him but he gives out a relly nice vibe so for some reason i felled comfortible when he was watching.

I didnt see Juan watching at all, he was in the changingroom and left as soon as he did his bit. But we watched him because I wanted to see for myself.

_____________________________

Rest In Peace Ron, I will never ever forget you my friend.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2007 17:37:42
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