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JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
 

Yet ANOTHER high-school massacre? 

[deleted]

Jb

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2007 18:40:02

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
 

RE: Yet ANOTHER high-school massacre? (in reply to JBASHORUN

I feel I should point out that I mean NO disrespect to the victims' families. But this is a symptom of a sick society, and the bad news is that this sort have thing is spreading from America across the Western world. And so much for "the right to bear arms"... I don't think it does America any good.

Jb

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2007 19:04:47
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Yet ANOTHER high-school massacre? (in reply to JBASHORUN

quote:

"America, America... land of the free, home of the DEPRAVED!!!"


Whoa, Whoa, Bash!!

That's a bit strong!

What...is Ricardo depraved?
Or ToddK or Romerito etc .. etc?


Giving the general public easy access to powerful rapid-firing firearms is not really a good idea IMO.
It's just asking for trouble, like giving a kid matches to play with, but the USA is going to have to sort that out for themselves.

Meanwhile I think we've got enough social problems here in the UK to start sorting out other people's societies.

cheers,

Ron

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2007 19:55:45

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
 

RE: Yet ANOTHER high-school massacre? (in reply to Ron.M

quote:

What...is Ricardo depraved?
Or ToddK or Romerito etc .. etc?


Ofcourse not. And I apologize if I came across as too harsh, I was just upset that so many innocent people died, and its not the first time either.

IMO a society is only as strong as its weakest members, so we ALL need to take care not to allow our societies to degenerate into chaos. I've heard the question posed: "Should the weaker members of society be protected?", but as we have just seen, its often SOCIETY ITSELF that needs protecting from the weaker members.

I'm not sure what strategies were in place to prevent such a tragedy from happening... I'm sure there must have been some. But these events are getting disturbingly frequent, and I think we need to take a step back and seriously examine the issues behind the tragedy whilst it is still fresh in our minds.

I apologise again, if I offended anyone. But legalizing guns is just a BAD idea! I'm so glad the UK didn't go down that road, although you're right- we do have troubles of our own...

Jb

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2007 20:20:33
 
Francisco

Posts: 879
Joined: Jun. 13 2005
From: SW USA

RE: Yet ANOTHER high-school massacre? (in reply to JBASHORUN

nevermind
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2007 20:42:33
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Yet ANOTHER high-school massacre? (in reply to JBASHORUN

Bash,
It's OK man...I know you're a sensitive guy.
But do you ask yourself WHY you're getting so upset?

For instance, on the whole of the BBC News on a day last week, the News items ran (in priority)...

1. Royal Prince splits up with girlfriend.
2. Pressures on NHS finance.
3. Does Gordon Brown feel safe about leadership takeover.
4. 22 people killed in Iraqi bombing... more seriously injured.

A lot of sentiment is media led.

The media can control just how much or how little we look at any particular story.

Iraq is boring to most people now.
It's not "news" any more...just the same old boring stuff.
Nobody cares how many folk got blown up or died or anything, be it Iraqi's, Americans or British.
Folk have switched off now.
They retune their morning radios to another station where they can listen to Status Quo or some brain numbing nursery-ryme rock band while they are shaving and getting on with their own lives.

President Bush has his own agenda and personal Historic legacy to consider as does President Blair (...well.."The People's President" ).

They do their bit by placing their hand across their heart and looking solemn as they raise the flag and then go off to dinner and pleasant conversation.

The world will go on regardless.

cheers

Ron

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2007 21:24:11
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Yet ANOTHER high-school massacre? (in reply to Francisco

quote:

nevermind


Well said Samwise...
Well said..

cheers

Ron

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A good guitar might be a good guitar
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2007 21:50:37
 
Francisco

Posts: 879
Joined: Jun. 13 2005
From: SW USA

RE: Yet ANOTHER high-school massacre? (in reply to JBASHORUN

After my original post, I was reminded of a signature I read at another forum.
quote:

The difference between smart and wise is a smart man knows what to say, a wise man knows when to say it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2007 22:13:36
 
John O.

Posts: 1714
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Darmstadt, Germany

RE: Yet ANOTHER high-school massacre? (in reply to JBASHORUN

We've had a couple of massacres here in Germany even with the gun restrictions. I don't know if that's the problem. I was born and raised in the US. As a teenager in Germany I knew people here who had access to guns and even showed them off, yet I never cared to touch them. That's the difference.

To me each case, no matter in which country, looked like it had to do with socially/emotionally uneducated youths whose parents never took the time to check out what they were up to. "How was your day?" or "Where have you been the whole week?" can make a big difference. There'll no doubt be more massacres to come. Careless parents are becoming more and more a trend.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2007 22:17:20

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
 

RE: Yet ANOTHER high-school massacre? (in reply to Francisco

quote:

After my original post, I was reminded of a signature I read at another forum.
quote:

The difference between smart and wise is a smart man knows what to say, a wise man knows when to say it.


OK, So it was a bad time to point out that America has its faults when many families are still mourning their loved ones. But IMO its best to deal with these issues when they are fresh, rather than leave them to be forgotten and brushed under the carpet. After all, in a few months time, most people will have completely forgotten about the incident, and it won't be until "the next one" that the issues involved are dealt with again. And its in EVERYONE's best interests that these issues are dealt with.

As for ignorance Samwise, if you think legalising guns makes you an "enlightened nation" you are very much mistaken, and I would argue that guns do far more harm than good. There are very few ways to kill so many people at once, and a gun is, inevitably, the weapon of choice. Lets not forget that guns are primarily designed for KILLING!

Ron has the stronger point that the media influences our/my sentiment. Its been covered pretty heavily on the television today, and that might have had something to do with it. You're wrong if you think I don't sympathize with any innocent people killed in Iraq (or any other war). Maybe slightly less so for soldiers because it is their CHOICE to risk their lives for money. But anyone else who is an innocent civilian, then that is just as tragic.

Besides... I never claimed to be wise OR smart.

Jb

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2007 22:56:13
 
Mark2

Posts: 1556
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Yet ANOTHER high-school massacre? (in reply to JBASHORUN

Status Quo Eh? That brought a smile to my face. Been a long time since I heard that name!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2007 22:57:50

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
 

RE: Yet ANOTHER high-school massacre? (in reply to Mark2

quote:

Status Quo Eh? That brought a smile to my face. Been a long time since I heard that name!


Yeah, judging by that, I don't think Ron likes Status Quo! Although I think I have their greatest hits CD somewhere.

Anyway, I deleted the original post in case it offended any Americans...

Jb

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2007 23:07:09
 
hassurbanipal

 

Posts: 191
Joined: Jul. 14 2006
From: belgium

RE: Yet ANOTHER high-school massacre? (in reply to JBASHORUN

maybe what I'm going to say will not be liked with everyone and it has been said before: people will always kill. You can not live with so many people and not have one who thinks he is god or says he has the power to determin who can live and who has to die.
it has been of all time, nothings changed allthough we think it is. If we go back in history we always see the same things, the only difference is that there was no media and there where less people.....

There is a piece of the dialogs of plato in which he says: something is wrong today with our youth, it's not the same as it was with us. they don't like to work and there's so much aggresiion in them....
sounds familiar?

I'm only trying to say that we need to look at this in it's context and painfully enough I don't know the solution and maybe that's because there is none....
I don't know , I can't say.
In belgium it's forbidden to own a gun at this moment, but if I wa&nt a gun tomorrow I can garantee you I will have one.....

live from flanders fields
andy

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 18 2007 6:56:33
 
John O.

Posts: 1714
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Darmstadt, Germany

RE: Yet ANOTHER high-school massacre? (in reply to hassurbanipal

quote:

In belgium it's forbidden to own a gun at this moment, but if I wa&nt a gun tomorrow I can garantee you I will have one.....


Exactly my point. Guns are everywhere, legal or not, just like drugs. Violent movies and music are everywhere, "Natural Born Killiers" was a smash hit here in Germany, Marilyn Manson is always in the charts when a new album comes out.

Mentally healthy and social people don't run amok. Rarely are these massacres from people over 18. 1+1 = parents are slacking off.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 18 2007 7:30:28

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
 

RE: Yet ANOTHER high-school massacre? (in reply to hassurbanipal

quote:

There is a piece of the dialogs of plato in which he says: something is wrong today with our youth, it's not the same as it was with us. they don't like to work and there's so much aggresiion in them....
sounds familiar?


Let me know if you can remember which of Plato's texts this is in. I have "The Republic" and "The Life and Death Of Socrates", so if its in one of them, I will try and look it up for myself.

I agree with John O that much of it comes down to troubled adolescents, but I'm not so sure kids were masacring people 1000 or even 250 years ago. Although I may be mistaken...

Jb

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 18 2007 9:29:01
 
John O.

Posts: 1714
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Darmstadt, Germany

RE: Yet ANOTHER high-school massacre? (in reply to JBASHORUN

Very true - back then there were less single mothers

Different times, different culture, I guess. Families were more tightly structured back then and held together as times were rougher. Dad smacked you when you complained about being teased and told you to be a man. No time to plot out killing everyone at your school either because there was too much hard labor to be done. Could this be?

I don't think I studied history enough to get into the subject, I'm just assuming...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 18 2007 10:09:36

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
 

RE: Yet ANOTHER high-school massacre? (in reply to John O.

quote:

Very true - back then there were less single mothers

Families were more tightly structured back then and held together as times were rougher. No time to plot out killing everyone at your school because there was too much hard labor to done, maybe?


You're actually right John. The number of single mothers raising children alone has MORE THAN TRIPLED since the latter half of the 20th Century, and marriage in general has become almost frowned upon by some. The guns are just a means by which these acts can be carried out efficiently, I suppose. The real problem is the change in the culture and collective Psyche of the Western world. Its a slippery slope IMO...

Just looking at the news, the number of murders in London commited by children (literally) is also increasing. There seems to be one every few weeks these days, and I'm sure any Londoners following the news will know what I'm talking about. So I guess its not just America that has a problem now.

But the guy who did the massacre had TWO parents, so we can't blame everything on single parent households.

Jb

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 18 2007 10:24:32
 
hassurbanipal

 

Posts: 191
Joined: Jul. 14 2006
From: belgium

RE: Yet ANOTHER high-school massacre? (in reply to JBASHORUN

hey jbashorun,
I can't really remeber where I got that quote from, it's still something I remember when I studied Plato that he said.
There is also another one I remember and wich is very true:
'good people don't need laws because they take their responsability, bad people always find a backdoor.'

And children didn't kill so much in the old days? That's a little bit strange because 2000 years ago you where almost a grown up when you where 12 and i can garantee you that when you where 15 you would kill for money in the army.
ofcourse we have to see all in context, it was a differnet time, another culture, another social context but it's the essence that killing in all sort of ways are of all time. I mean that people are saying, what a time we live in, this has never happend before. sure it did. I do not doubt that, every generation thinks that it was better then of it is different now, but killing is of all ages in all times in all the different ways, it's human, all though I regret this I do not know the solution.
Can you get my drift?

sorry, it's turning into a philosofic topic.....:)) but it's off-topic so I'm allowed, no?

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E. Satie
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 18 2007 12:24:49

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
 

RE: Yet ANOTHER high-school massacre? (in reply to hassurbanipal

quote:

And children didn't kill so much in the old days? That's a little bit strange because 2000 years ago you where almost a grown up when you where 12 and i can garantee you that when you where 15 you would kill for money in the army.


I see your point, Hassurbanipal. But I'm not talking about soldiers (young or old) killing for a supposedly "just" cause. This will ALWAYS happen as long as civilization exists. What I am concerned with is the "MINDLESS killing", killing that DOESN'T serve to liberate a country or people, that DOESN'T have any valid reason other than sickness. IMO this kind of "mindless" killing is becoming ever more frequent these days, and was less common 150 years ago. I'm just keen to find out WHY this is happening, and how it can be prevented.

I do appreciate what you said about how good people taking their moral responsibility seriously. But I see the "bad people" as having a "sickness" which it is society's responsibility to attempt to cure, if we are all going to live peacefully and not have massacres like the recent ones.

Anyway, I don't have the answers either. I'll leave it all up to the people and politicians...

Jb

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 18 2007 12:42:02
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Yet ANOTHER high-school massacre? (in reply to JBASHORUN

quote:

But the guy who did the massacre had TWO parents, so we can't blame everything on single parent households


acctualy u cant blame anything on the single parent

i was raised by a single parent, wasent a choice it was the way it worked out, i didnt miss out on anything , and the things i did miss out on must not have been that important because i havent shot anyone.

Yes back in the day people stay togheder longher, but they were unhappy, and there was alot more violence at home, nobody chosses to be a single parent, nobody wants to do the job by themselfs, if they are single parents perhaps there is a good reason , wouldnt you think ?

I cant think of anyone that wakes up in the morning and says to themselfs, I dont want to be loved, or get affection, or have someone to relie on.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 18 2007 12:55:01
 
Francisco

Posts: 879
Joined: Jun. 13 2005
From: SW USA

RE: Yet ANOTHER high-school massacre? (in reply to JBASHORUN

Oh boy, I tried to refrain, but alas....

quote:

But IMO its best to deal with these issues when they are fresh, rather than leave them to be forgotten and brushed under the carpet.

Agreed, but initially your opinion didn't come across as 'dealing with these issues', but rather bashing an entire nation of people for one single senseless act. If, in the future, you decide to deal with issues, a more appropriate format would be to present the problem as you see it, then list a few solutions.

quote:

As for ignorance Samwise, if you think legalising guns makes you an "enlightened nation" you are very much mistaken, and I would argue that guns do far more harm than good.

The ignorance I was eluding to, Sunshine, was your use of such a broad brush to paint an entire nation as socially deprived because one moron decides to act on impulse. I totally agree with the idea that guns do more harm than good. You seem to think that just because I'm American that I'm pro gun, another incorrect assumption on your part if that is the case. And just for the record, I was using the word ignorance as defined as a lack of awareness, NOT as a synonym for stupidity.

quote:

Besides... I never claimed to be wise OR smart.

Nor have I, but be that as it may, wouldn't it be an honorable achievement?

On a final note...
quote:

Cho Seung-Hui, who police say is responsible for most of Monday's shootings, was a resident alien from South Korea

Not trying to imply anything, just found it interesting in light of the initial anti-American sentiment of this thread.

Peace
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 18 2007 12:56:43
 
John O.

Posts: 1714
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Darmstadt, Germany

RE: Yet ANOTHER high-school massacre? (in reply to Florian

quote:

quote:

But the guy who did the massacre had TWO parents, so we can't blame everything on single parent households

acctualy u cant blame anything on the single parent

i was raised by a single parent, wasent a choice it was the way it worked out, i didnt miss out on anything , and the things i did miss out on must not have been that important because i havent shot anyone.

Yes back in the day people stay togheder longher, but they were unhappy, and there was alot more violence at home, nobody chosses to be a single parent, nobody wants to do the job by themselfs, if they are single parents perhaps there is a good reason , wouldnt you think ?

I cant think of anyone that wakes up in the morning and says to themselfs, I dont want to be loved, or get affection, or have someone to relie on.


Agreed. I was raised by a single parent too. Has nothing to do with that. None of the massacres I know of were done by children of broken homes, come to think of it.

I think I see a dead end up ahead, think I'm done with this topic - it was fun though

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 18 2007 13:20:18

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
 

RE: Yet ANOTHER high-school massacre? (in reply to Francisco

quote:

Agreed, but initially your opinion didn't come across as 'dealing with these issues', but rather bashing an entire nation of people for one single senseless act. If, in the future, you decide to deal with issues, a more appropriate format would be to present the problem as you see it, then list a few solutions.


Yes, sorry about that Samwise... the initial post was not one of my better ones. I was just caught up in the drama of the moment, and didn't think it through. My intention was not to attack the American PEOPLE as such, but rather the LAWS that allow them to bare arms, and virtually ENCOURAGE such trouble. That said, I do think that EVERY society (AMERICA INCLUDED) has a responsibility to try and prevent these tragedies from happening.

As for the guy being a Korean immigrant- that has nothing to do with it. He came to america when he was EIGHT years old, and was at least 23 at the time of the massacre. As far as I am concerned, he WAS AMERICAN, and had been living in the US for the MAJORITY of his LIFE.

But you are right, ofcourse, its not fair to blame or single out America, when the problem affects the whole of the Western World (although America does lead the way). But I gather from your tone that you think these sort of events cannot be helped, and are just down to a few bad apples spoiling the bunch.

Still, who am I to say that your theory is wrong, I'm not a social scientist. But I do hope that lessons are being learned from these tragedies, and that steps are taken to prevent them happening again.

Jb

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 18 2007 13:42:56
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Yet ANOTHER high-school massacre? (in reply to JBASHORUN

Just as a rider to my previous post..

Over 50 people have been killed in Baghdad today in car bombings.

There was a brief mention of it at the end of the mid-morning news and no mention of it at all on the main lunchtime news. (and this is the BBC!)

Although the standard of world journalism is very high IMO, News Editors are under pressure to put out the "sexy" stories first.
News is now a mixture of Entertainment and Reality TV aimed at harnessing the most viewers/listeners/readers.

cheers

Ron

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 18 2007 13:49:57

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
 

RE: Yet ANOTHER high-school massacre? (in reply to Ron.M

quote:

Over 50 people have been killed in Baghdad today in car bombings.

There was a brief mention of it at the end of the mid-morning news and no mention of it at all on the main lunchtime news. (and this is the BBC!)

Although the standard of world journalism is very high IMO, News Editors are under pressure to put out the "sexy" stories first.
News is now a mixture of Entertainment and Reality TV aimed at harnessing the most viewers/listeners/readers.


Yes, that does seem unfair. It would appear that they take events that occur "closer to home" much more seriously than those happening in someone else's back yard. I suppose, speaking from experience, its easy to do that...

Jb

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 18 2007 13:53:59
 
Francisco

Posts: 879
Joined: Jun. 13 2005
From: SW USA

RE: Yet ANOTHER high-school massacre? (in reply to JBASHORUN

quote:

News is now a mixture of Entertainment and Reality TV aimed at harnessing the most viewers/listeners/readers.

infotainment
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 18 2007 14:19:24
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Yet ANOTHER high-school massacre? (in reply to JBASHORUN

Oops!
It's starting to get mentioned now that the death toll has gone over 150.

So it should get good coverage tonight, unless Prince William's ex-girlfriend decides to make a statement to the press.

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But it takes a woman to break your heart
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 18 2007 15:35:25
 
Mark2

Posts: 1556
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Yet ANOTHER high-school massacre? (in reply to Ron.M

Could you imagine the press if she had a "wardrobe malfuction"?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 18 2007 17:10:21
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5063
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: Yet ANOTHER high-school massacre? (in reply to JBASHORUN

I have no words for idiots in Bagdad or freaks in the us..... Im just speechless about whats going on today in our world.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 18 2007 21:33:24
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