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tapered fingerboard on Ramirez?   You are logged in as Guest
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a_arnold

 

Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006
 

tapered fingerboard on Ramirez? 
I've seen fingerboards tapered to correct a bad neck angle or to correct a warped neck. That's NOT what I'm talking about here.

Here I'm talking about a fingerboard that thins from treble to bass side -- NOT from nut to soundhole.

Huber's book (The development of the Modern Guitar) talks about Ramirez's fingerboard:

"To ease handling the high tensions [of a longer scale and thicker strings] and to maintain acceptable playing characteristics, Ramirez had developed a superb neck and fingerboard for their "Segovia" standard model with a characteristic reduction of bass side fingerboard thickness to allow interference-free string vibration and reasonable bridge heights. The skill and expense necessary to produce this neck and fingerboard kept it unique to Ramirez . . . ."

I've never had my hands on a Segovia model, which is, of course, classical, and I've never noticed a tapered fingerboard on a flamenco. Have any of the luthiers on the forum ever seen this on a flamenco guitar, or is it unique to classical? Has anyone had their hands on a Segovia model? What is the difference in string height between the treble and base sides?

And can't the same thing be achieved a lot easier by just filing one side of the nut and bridge to bring the treble side closer to the fingerboard and leave the bass high?

Tony Arnold
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 6 2007 15:43:41
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: tapered fingerboard on Ramirez? (in reply to a_arnold) 
The first time I saw this effect on a Ramirez I thought the neck was twisted but then realized that they had shaved the bass side of the fingerboard from about fret 12 to the sound hole. It allows greater string travel without requiring that the action be set very high. I think it's a good idea for classic guitars since notes are seldom fretted on the bass strings above the 12th fret. No need for this on flamenco guitars since flamencos don't care about buzzing .

John Shelton
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 6 2007 22:48:44
 
a_arnold

 

Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006
 

RE: tapered fingerboard on Ramirez? (in reply to a_arnold) 
So that's how they do it! They must then bend the frets to fit the fingerboard. This doesn't sound so complicated, though. Huber's book made it sound like it was so difficult only the Ramirez factory could do it. Am I missing something?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 7 2007 3:23:16
 
Per Hallgren

 

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

RE: tapered fingerboard on Ramirez? (in reply to a_arnold) 
Since the difference in stringheight between the first and sixth string is greater on a classical than on a flamenco this technique of letting the fingerboard fall off is of greater need on the classical. The purpose is to give the strings the same height over the top at the bridge and in the same time give the appropriate height over the fingerboard. The fingerboard is falling off right from the nut, not only from the 12th fret giving it a twisted appearance. I use this technique on all my classical guitars and consider it to be an important part of the whole design.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 8 2007 8:40:01
 
a_arnold

 

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Joined: Jul. 30 2006
 

RE: tapered fingerboard on Ramirez? (in reply to a_arnold) 
So, Per:
Tapering all the way from the nut?
(1) How do you do it and keep the fingerboard flat? Or even more difficult, how do you do it and keep a slight crown if that is what you do?

and

(2) Why not simply raise the bridge bone a little on the bass side? Does that negatively affect the sound?
Tony
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 13 2007 20:48:26
 
Per Hallgren

 

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

RE: tapered fingerboard on Ramirez? (in reply to a_arnold) 
Yes, I taper all the way from nut. The line for every string has its own perfect curve. The sixth string has its lowest point in another fret position than the first, and all the others too...

The fingerboard is flat across every fret, or it is slightly curved, if that is what it need to be.

All this extra work is to not raise the bridge bone. The height over the top is significant for the force on the bridge and thus on the top. The bone should be all level with the top, or almos level as on a flamenco guitar. A classical guitar has bigger difference in string height so therefore the fingerboard need to be tapered.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 13 2007 21:08:47
 
a_arnold

 

Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006
 

RE: tapered fingerboard on Ramirez? (in reply to a_arnold) 
Amazing, Per. Is it a trade secret how you do it? Huber's book says that Ramirez is the only factory with the ability to do this, but obviously that's not true. It sounds like the taper varies across the fingerboard from least on the treble side, to most on the bass. How is this possible to do uniformly? Does this mean that from the second fret to the soundhole, the angle of each and every fret changes slightly in relation to the sound table, so no 2 frets are set at the same angle?

How much does the taper change? What is the height difference at the 12th fret between the treble and bass?

I'm really impressed. I can't figure out how you would do it with enough precision. Do you use a jig that tilts the fingerboard at an olblique angle so you can sand it level?

Tony A.

Tony
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 19 2007 2:21:02
 
Per Hallgren

 

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

RE: tapered fingerboard on Ramirez? (in reply to a_arnold) 
This is not a trade secret. I'm sure most good makers know how to do it if they want. It is the same hand tools and procedure as planing and scraping the fingerboard uniform in thickness. How much difference between treble and bass side depends on what the string height should be and that, of course, depends on the customer.

John Huber is a knowledgable man (actually living in Sweden since many years). Read what he writes: "the only factory". (I have not checked this in my own copy of the book). I guess what he try to say is that since the Ramirez "factory" is working in an artesano way they have the ability to execute these kind of work which need to be done by a skilled craftsman. It is nothing magical about this fingerboard. It just add an hour or two to the process, and that is not tolarable in most factories...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 19 2007 9:16:24
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: tapered fingerboard on Ramirez? (in reply to a_arnold) 
I suspect there is some confusion here about the nomenclature. Since Per mentions that the frets are all straight that implies to me that he is suggesting the fingerboard is uniformly beveled from treble to bass. Although it's been many years since I noticed this effect on a Ramirez classic, what I saw was not a uniform bevel but a tapered bevel from about the 12th fret. The frets were quite obviously bent to match the shape of the fingerboard. I didn't measure it, only observed it in a music shop but it was new. Ramirez is known to experiment a lot, maybe this was only done for a year or so. The guitar was unimpressive and I paid it little attention other than noticing this effect. Tapering the fingerboard on the bass side in the upper registers can also be seen in 10 and 11 string guitars and lutes. Sometimes the fingerboard is completely cut away.

John Shelton
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 20 2007 13:56:08
 
Per Hallgren

 

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

RE: tapered fingerboard on Ramirez? (in reply to jshelton5040) 
quote:

Since Per mentions that the frets are all straight that implies to me that he is suggesting the fingerboard is uniformly beveled from treble to bass. Although it's been many years since I noticed this effect on a Ramirez classic, what I saw was not a uniform bevel but a tapered bevel from about the 12th fret. The frets were quite obviously bent to match the shape of the fingerboard.


The confusion increases... I don't understand what you mean with "uniformly beveled from treble to bass".

Ok, I try to explain in another way. Give the saddle a uniform height over the top. This is what I want and why I make all the trouble. While planing the fingerboard measure the supposed stringheight with a straight edge from nut to saddle. Plane away material from the fingerboard so that all strings get the needed stringheight and relief. Make the fingerboard flat, cylindrical or coned, which ever you prefer. Fret as usual.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 20 2007 15:58:41
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: tapered fingerboard on Ramirez? (in reply to Per Hallgren) 
[/quote]The confusion increases... I don't understand what you mean with "uniformly beveled from treble to bass".[/quote]

Uniformly beveled from bass to treble means the fingerboard is thinner on the bass side than on the treble side. One could easily make a jig to hold the fingerboard tipped slightly and run it through a thickness sander to accomplish this. Then instead of a couple of hours it would take only a few minutes. I have several jigs for putting different tapers in fingerboards (from nut to soundhole). I use them to correct for minor errors in neck deflection. I'll do almost anything to avoid sanding ebony the dust is awful.

John Shelton
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 20 2007 22:31:39
 
Per Hallgren

 

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

RE: tapered fingerboard on Ramirez? (in reply to jshelton5040) 
quote:

Uniformly beveled from bass to treble means the fingerboard is thinner on the bass side than on the treble side.


John, that is not what I do. The fingerboard is of equal thickness at the nut. To give the basses bigger space to vibrate I remove material on the bass side of the board so that the string height will be correct without raising the saddle. Thus the difference in thickness between the treble side and the bass side is increasing the closer you get to the bridge end of the board. I use a sharp blockplane for most of the job, then a scraper before ending with sanding block and fine paper, so the dust is minimized until the very end phase.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 21 2007 7:13:59
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: tapered fingerboard on Ramirez? (in reply to Per Hallgren) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Per Hallgren

Thus the difference in thickness between the treble side and the bass side is increasing the closer you get to the bridge end of the board. I use a sharp blockplane for most of the job, then a scraper before ending with sanding block and fine paper, so the dust is minimized until the very end phase.


Now that would be a difficult jig to make but it could be done. The advantage of using an appliance (jig) is you only have to make it once.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 21 2007 14:33:12
 
Per Hallgren

 

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

RE: tapered fingerboard on Ramirez? (in reply to jshelton5040) 
It would be a hell of a jig. Not every fingerboard is identical since the string height vary with the guitarist. My poor old brain can't even imagine how such a jig should be working.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 21 2007 16:21:48
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