Applying a golpeaor - bad for the guitar?

Foro Flamenco

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Posts Since Last Visit | Advanced Search | Home | Register | Login

Today's Posts | Inbox | Profile | Our Rules | Contact Admin | Log Out

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

Applying a golpeaor - bad for the guitar?

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >>

Page: [1] 2 > >>

Login

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

Adam

Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON

Applying a golpeaor - bad for the gu...

I have a Raimundo classical that I've been playing flamenco on for a while, and FINALLY I got a golpeador (well, a tap plate I found in the store, at least--I hope it's good, I'll post pics tomorrow for approval :P ), but when I bought it, the guy who worked the store warned me that it dampens the sound of the guitar. Is this true? If I throw a tap plate on a classical guitar, will it really sound noticeably worse? While I'm asking questions :) don't want to go into this uninformed...is there any particular shape/cutting that it's advisable to do before applying the tap plate? And lastly, should I bring it to a music shop to have them apply it, or can I do it myself without worry of screwing it up?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 23 2007 8:02:12

nhills

Posts: 230
Joined: Jul. 13 2003
From: West Des Moines, IA USA

RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for th... (in reply to Adam)

This is a topic I've been concerned about even on dedicated flamenco guitars. It's always seemed to me that installing a plastic golpeador is like glueing a piece of rubber to the top and still expecting it to vibrate.

Wood golpeadors seem like a better idea, since they can be treated as part of the bracing - just on the outside instead of inside.

But... What do the luthiers here think? Do you do anything to compensate for them?

Cheers,
Norman

_____________________________

"The duende is God's orgasm." - Antonio Canales

"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." - Santos Hernandez (as translated by R. Brune)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 23 2007 13:01:19

Georg

Posts: 405
Joined: Feb. 5 2006
From: Germany

RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for th... (in reply to Adam)

Hi ramparts, here are a few things you might consider:

1. When you play flamenco without the golpeador it will be even worse in a year.
2. Most steel string guitars also have a kind of glopeador, but nobody cares if the sound gets worse, they just shut up and play their guitars (to say it with Frank Zappa)

3. There are golpeadors which can be removed after playing, and be applied again, but I have not tested them.
4. If you can afford a few bucks, buy a flamenco guitar cheap but decent (e.g. the one from Yamaha) and use the classical for classical guitar music and the flamenco guitar for flamenco.

My personal experience:

I applied a classical guitar with a golpeador, and I did not hear a big difference, to be honest I did not hear any difference at all, though I'm sure there are people who claim to do so.

I have never heard of wooden golpeadors, and it sounds strange to glue wood on top of the guitar to protect the wood

.

Greetings
Georg

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 23 2007 17:12:29

nhills

Posts: 230
Joined: Jul. 13 2003
From: West Des Moines, IA USA

RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for th... (in reply to Georg)

For example, a '23 Santos Hernandez and a '65 Marcelino Lopez.

Norman

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"The duende is God's orgasm." - Antonio Canales

"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." - Santos Hernandez (as translated by R. Brune)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 23 2007 17:49:21

Adam

Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON

RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for th... (in reply to Adam)

Thanks for the help! Waiting on a luthier then :) For the flamencos, here's the one that I got:

http://www.maplestreetguitars.com/show_item.php?dep=11&cat=PKGD&sku=71013700639

It calls it a "golpe plate" which gives me a bit of confidence, but just to be sure, is this the right size/shape/etc.?

Not sure where I'd find a wood golpeador...or anything besides this one, actually, I went to as many stores as I could and they all only had that. As for buying a cheap Yamaha flamenco...well, a) I don't have the money, b) I don't play classical so this guitar would go to waste, and c) I love my guitar :D

Thanks again, all!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 23 2007 17:52:46

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for th... (in reply to Adam)

Why dont you use a transparent Golpeador?
Its a self-adhesive plastic foil , costs about 8 Euros and it is not so ugly like those white plates!
And it protects your guitar as good as the plates.

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 23 2007 18:40:55

Adam

Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON

RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for th... (in reply to Adam)

God forbid I use a white golpeador!! hehe...that one may look white but it says clear, so I'm not worried. If it turns out to be white, I'll just go look again :P

Hmm where might I find self-adhesive plastic foil then?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 23 2007 18:54:02

MarkMc

Posts: 121
Joined: Oct. 1 2005
From: Wilsonville, Oregon

RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for th... (in reply to Adam)

Hi Ramparts,

I did the same thing with my old classical before I got a flamenco.
I bought a clear self adhesive one from stringsbymail.com:

http://www.stringsbymail.com/acsub.asp?tSer=83&dSub=Golpeadores

However, it says they're out of stock right now. It looks like there's a cling on one though. I'm not sure how well that would protect though...

You could always email the folks at stringsbymail. In my experience they've always been really nice and helpful. Plus it's a great place to buy strings.

_____________________________

-MarkMc

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 23 2007 19:15:02

Georg

Posts: 405
Joined: Feb. 5 2006
From: Germany

RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for th... (in reply to nhills)

quote:

ORIGINAL: nhills

For example, a '23 Santos Hernandez and a '65 Marcelino Lopez.

Norman

Hm... next time I'll keep my mouth shut.

Do you know what wood this is? It must be really hard.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 23 2007 19:20:25

Adam

Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON

RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for th... (in reply to MarkMc)

Thanks Mark!! Did you have any big issues with the classical when/after applying the golpeador?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 23 2007 20:31:18

Hugh

Posts: 130
Joined: Jul. 27 2006

RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for th... (in reply to Adam)

Quote...............
If you can afford a few bucks, buy a flamenco guitar cheap but decent (e.g. the one from Yamaha) and use the classical for classical guitar music and the flamenco guitar for flamenco.

Ramparts. I started off with a classical, using it for flamenco. I was going to put the clear sticky plates on it to save buying a proper flamenco, I even had them ordered.
But I had a look at some sites and decided to buy the afore mentioned Yamaha 171 sf. I'm really glad I did now, because when I pick up my classical and try to play flamenco on it, it sounds and plays crap, compared to the 171 which is built for the job.
Its not that costly. I got mine for under £ 250. Not a top end instrument by any means, but it does the job for now.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 23 2007 20:33:43

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for th... (in reply to Adam)

At the end of the day, I reckon if you've got a fairly inexpensive guitar to begin with, then there is really nothing much to screw up.
I doubt if applying ANY sort of golpeador would make any audible difference.
When you start making changes to high-end guitars, then that's a different story.
You could completely ruin the resale value of the guitar for a start.
Best leave these ones to the professionals IMO, preferably returning it to the original maker.

cheers

Ron

_____________________________

A good guitar might be a good guitar
But it takes a woman to break your heart

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 23 2007 20:34:14

nhills

Posts: 230
Joined: Jul. 13 2003
From: West Des Moines, IA USA

RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for th... (in reply to Georg)

Wood golpeadors are usually maple - in these cases, fiddle-back (flame-grain.) The Conde "re-creation" of a Domingo Esteso uses birds-eye maple.

Norman

_____________________________

"The duende is God's orgasm." - Antonio Canales

"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." - Santos Hernandez (as translated by R. Brune)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 23 2007 20:52:23

Ted G

Posts: 56
Joined: Jul. 19 2003

RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for th... (in reply to Adam)

This was many years ago, but I installed the same golpeador myself on my student classical. I think I had to trim a bit off the bottom of both pieces in order to accommodate the bridge after centering the pieces onto the sound hole. Just start at one end and peel back the backing as you press the golpeador onto the guitar to remove any bubbles. If I can do it, anyone can. If there is any sound difference, I can't tell.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2007 13:16:56

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for th... (in reply to Adam)

Ramparts, don't worry about adhesive foil. The Herco golpeadores (like the one you ordered) are SELF adhesive, meaning that you just have to peel of the backing and stick it on. I have one ready to apply to my first guitar once its finished. Although I might investigate making my own Birds'eye maple one...

Jb

_____________________________

¡Si esto no está en compas, esto no es el Flamenco!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2007 14:25:18

Adam

Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON

RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for th... (in reply to Adam)

Thanks so much for all the help! And so the Herco golpeadores are of the right material and, yes, aesthetic "style" for flamenco?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2007 18:01:01

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for th... (in reply to Adam)

yes the herco ones are fine. perfecto! you shouldn't have any problems, but if you do it will probably just be minor adjustments to the shape that need doing. but wait until it arrives and you've tested it before worrying about that.

Jb

_____________________________

¡Si esto no está en compas, esto no es el Flamenco!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2007 18:08:38

Adam

Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON

RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for th... (in reply to Adam)

Oh yeah, I bought it in a store so it's sitting around just waiting :) I'll probably cut it with an exacto knife or one of those...and do I just clean the guitar's top a bit with a white t-shirt or something before putting it on?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2007 18:27:42

Georg

Posts: 405
Joined: Feb. 5 2006
From: Germany

RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for th... (in reply to Adam)

If you want, I can send you a video, where it is shown how it's done. (about 5mb)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2007 18:38:55

Adam

Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON

RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for th... (in reply to Adam)

That would be tremendous :) My user name at gmail.com if you don't mind...thanks!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2007 18:45:23

Georg

Posts: 405
Joined: Feb. 5 2006
From: Germany

RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for th... (in reply to Adam)

sent

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2007 19:08:15

mentrida

Posts: 55
Joined: Jun. 19 2004

RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for th... (in reply to nhills)

Norman,

I've always wondered about this topic too.

Why have we moved on to the plastic golpeadores? is it because they are cheaper or easier to replace without damaging guitar? or they considered thin enough that they don't interfere with sound?

Although I like the idea of the wood ones, it seems they would be damaged like the guitar top and need replacing often. Is that the case, or is the maple hard enough to last?

Thanks for your input.
Simon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2007 22:44:02

ChiyoDad

Posts: 151
Joined: Jun. 30 2007
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for th... (in reply to Adam)

I'm planning to install a clear golpeador to my Yamaha C45 ($89 laminated spruce-top) so I can practice some right-hand techniques. I ordered my material from Luthiers Mercantile although I probably should have just gotten it from Strings-by-Mail.

I don't expect it to affect the sound that much but I would like to minimize the size of the tap plate material on the soundboard.

Is it best to install plates on both sides of the strings or just on the treble side?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 7 2007 17:49:32

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for th... (in reply to mentrida)

quote:

Why have we moved on to the plastic golpeadores? is it because they are cheaper or easier to replace without damaging guitar? or they considered thin enough that they don't interfere with sound?

If you had ever played a guitar with a golpeador made of wood you wouldn't need to ask this question. As they wear they become scratchy and uneven. The sound is not the crisp crack like the plastic ones. They get dirty from the oils in your fingers and look terrible. They're much thicker than plastic so are more likely to damp the sound. They are normally two pieces so they don't protect the top under the strings. Plastic is better in every way.

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 7 2007 20:08:05

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for th... (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

Plastic is better in every way.

I know nothing about guitar building, but that's what I'd have thought too.
I mean two big bits of wood stuck to the soundboard must have some kind of effect, regardless of how "natural" or "green/non-synthetics" your world view is?
Especially if they are NAILED on!!

cheers,

Ron

_____________________________

A good guitar might be a good guitar
But it takes a woman to break your heart

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 7 2007 21:34:56

Georg

Posts: 405
Joined: Feb. 5 2006
From: Germany

RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for th... (in reply to Adam)

quote:

Especially if they are NAILED on!!

Would be very Gipsy though

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 7 2007 22:14:45

nhills

Posts: 230
Joined: Jul. 13 2003
From: West Des Moines, IA USA

RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for th... (in reply to jshelton5040)

This is a topic that has long interested me.

In general, I agree with John about the disadvantages of wood golpeadores, but I have also thought the following:

1) Plastic is not an acoustic material - it doesn't vibrate like wood; therefore, it may be thought of as damping the vibration of the top - not as bad as gluing a sheet of rubber on the top, but.... What IS the actual effect of adding plastic golpeadores?

2) The internal bracing of a guitar may be changed to account for a wood golpeador. Since the golpeador is wood, it can vibrate and can be thought of as part of the bracing - just on the outside instead of on the inside.

Comments very much appreciated - particularly from the luthiers here.

Norman

_____________________________

"The duende is God's orgasm." - Antonio Canales

"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." - Santos Hernandez (as translated by R. Brune)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 7 2007 23:28:26

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for th... (in reply to nhills)

quote:

1) Plastic is not an acoustic material - it doesn't vibrate like wood; therefore, it may be thought of as damping the vibration of the top - not as bad as gluing a sheet of rubber on the top, but.... What IS the actual effect of adding plastic golpeadores?

2) The internal bracing of a guitar may be changed to account for a wood golpeador. Since the golpeador is wood, it can vibrate and can be thought of as part of the bracing - just on the outside instead of on the inside.

I can't comment on the damping effect of a plastic golpeador other than to say that I've applied hundreds of self adhesive golpeadors and never noticed any difference in the voice of the guitar.

I'm not a physicist but I suspect the mass of the golpeador has a lot more to do with damping than the material it's made of. Furthermore a plate is not my idea of the optimum way to brace a top.

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2007 1:33:37

ChiyoDad

Posts: 151
Joined: Jun. 30 2007
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for th... (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jshelton5040
I can't comment on the damping effect of a plastic golpeador other than to say that I've applied hundreds of self adhesive golpeadors and never noticed any difference in the voice of the guitar.

John, what thickness do you use: 0.005", 0.011" or 0.015"?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2007 1:59:55

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Applying a golpeaor - bad for th... (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

If you had ever played a guitar with a golpeador made of wood you wouldn't need to ask this question. As they wear they become scratchy and uneven. The sound is not the crisp crack like the plastic ones. They get dirty from the oils in your fingers and look terrible. They're much thicker than plastic so are more likely to damp the sound. They are normally two pieces so they don't protect the top under the strings. Plastic is better in every way.

I agree, I agree, I agree. Flamenco guitars are guitars with big tapplates and the plastic ones are the best.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2007 11:14:49

Page: [1] 2 > >>

All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >>

Page: [1] 2 > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET

0.078125 secs.