Foro Flamenco


Posts Since Last Visit | Advanced Search | Home | Register | Login

Today's Posts | Inbox | Profile | Our Rules | Contact Admin | Log Out



Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.





Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free?   You are logged in as Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: [1] 2 3    >   >>
Login
Message<< Newer Topic  Older Topic >>

ToddK

 

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
 

Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? 
What's the consensus these days? When doing 3, 4, and 5 stroke ras,

are the fingers always cocked and flicked from the meat of the thumb,
or are they sometimes free finger?

I was just having a discusion with Skai over at Delcamp Classical forum, and
he claims its all free finger.

I jumped on top of him, and said No way! You have to cock and flick!!

What's the deal? Could i possibly have been playing flamenco all this
time and somehow missed this?
TK

_____________________________
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2007 11:27:26
 
Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (in reply to ToddK) 
I for one have no idea what is the norm, but i always use cocked and flicked from the meat of the thumb, just cause u get more power and a more definitive sound.

_____________________________
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2007 11:51:41
 
duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (in reply to ToddK) 
i have a masterclass on video with Pedro cortes(i think its pedro)
and he claims that to have that flamenco "snap" you should shot them out from errrr the meat and not at all free. personaly i do what seems best for each situation.
if your going to keep a light accompaniment between fasetas and stuff i wouldnt lock the fingers up and make a loud rasgueado.

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2007 11:53:03
 
edgar884

Posts: 1975
Joined: Nov. 16 2005
 

RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (in reply to ToddK) 
Chuscales told me and others that you should bend the thumb like a hook and flick the fingers out from behind it. But the more you play the more the strokes become free. Thats my two cents Todd.

Seems to be pretty true as well, the more advanced the player the more the strokes become free.

_____________________________

May we find God through Flamenco instead of Angels and Demons

www.gabrieledgar.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2007 13:18:43
 
Francisco

Posts: 879
Joined: Jun. 13 2005
From: SW USA

RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (in reply to ToddK) 
I'm a noob, but the videos I've been watching all say to start out by using the meat on the palm to flick the fingers out. A couple of the videos do state that this is a beginner technique, and that you should eventually get a point where the meat of the palm is not used (Aarong Gilmartin & J. Serrano).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2007 13:19:39
 
hassurbanipal

 

Posts: 191
Joined: Jul. 14 2006
From: belgium

RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (in reply to ToddK) 
I think it is the best way to push them from the meat of your palm. That is the only good way to get a clean strong sound I believe and maybe after a few years you get enough power in your fingers .....and then the wordl is yours to take

first your rasguedo takes manhattan and then it will probably take berlin....
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2007 13:34:58
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (in reply to ToddK) 
quote:

personaly i do what seems best for each situation.
if your going to keep a light accompaniment between fasetas and stuff i wouldnt lock the fingers up and make a loud rasgueado.


I 100% agree.
The rasgueado that you shoot away from your thumb are great for some things. Loud and clear, but with emphasis on the bass strings. The free is lighter and its easyer to make emphasis on the treble strings.

Learn and use both is my attitude.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2007 15:03:48
 
xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1889
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
i agree with Anders - i feel when i play free rasgueados i have much more control on them, especially when it comes to the treble strings...i could never get used to the other way...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2007 15:20:31
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (in reply to ToddK) 
I find that I get a lot of power for hitting nails into a wall using a hammer.
Should I throw my toothpicks away ?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2007 15:52:09

ToddK

 

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
 

RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (in reply to ToddK) 
quote:

I find that I get a lot of power for hitting nails into a wall using a hammer.
Should I throw my toothpicks away ?


I prefer dental floss actually.

_____________________________
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2007 15:59:41
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (in reply to ToddK) 
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2007 16:01:55
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (in reply to ToddK) 
Rule number one: don't argue about flamenco techniques on a classical guitar forum!

Rule number two: there are different ways to do rasgueado. Depends on the sound you want. I for one have never flicked my fingers off of my "palm". But some folks have REALLY long fingers and can't help it. And if my fingers are "free" ie, not flicking from the thumb, they are actually not TOTALLY free. Actually they rub against each other, and that way they do "flick" off sort of. No one I know does rasgueados with the fingers spread way out, at least from the "starting" position, all the fingers touch each other before they attack the strings.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2007 16:03:19
Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to ToddK) 
[Deleted by Admins]

_____________________________
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2007 16:17:59
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (in reply to ToddK) 
Think rest stroke versus free stroke Romerito.

A good rest stroke ( building resistance on the string ) teaches you to use your finger with more weight which can help you get a more powerful free stroke.

Noone good dispenses with free strokes because they are often musically appropriate and technically expedient.

Back to Todds original point. In a classical piece that uses a little rasguado for effect, like the Aranjuez or all the Turina flamenco pastiche stuff, a really bright snappy rasguado might distort the musical effect of a phrase or section. Conversely classical players using un-cocked rasg. as a small and underdeveloped part of their technique often sound muddy, weak and unrhythmical.

Record yourself both ways and see what you think best serves the needs of each phrase with wherever your technique is that day.

So, well ...... do both to the best of your ability then choose.

David.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2007 17:42:05
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (in reply to ToddK) 
I must admit, I never do any rasgueados with the fingers pushing "cocked" against the thumb or another part of the hand.
It feels very "uncontrollable" to me as a "general" rasgueado, although I must admit, I hear players using it to great effect.
I find curling the fingers up very tightly sort of locks them anyway, so it needs quite a "pulse" of force to straighten them out (ie they don't unfurl gradually).
Also, I find that way you can control the ending much more that the "explosive" technique.
That's just my experience, but there are thousands of rasgueados, as you know already.
Doesn't matter how you get the sound you want, so long as you get it.

cheers

Ron

_____________________________

A good guitar might be a good guitar
But it takes a woman to break your heart
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2007 20:08:34
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (in reply to ToddK) 
I mix it. It depends on which sounding result you want. If you wanna have softer-rasguados. Dont cock them. If you wanna have hard agressive masculine hammerrasguado-sound. ... cock them. There are more than 2 options to cock them. I use 3 different cocking technics and also without. So.. it really depends on what you wanna hear at the end.
Some people have stronger hands or arent much acrobatic with fingers than others.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2007 21:39:29
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (in reply to Ron.M) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron M.
Doesn't matter how you get the sound you want, so long as you get it.


Agreed Ron.

David.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2007 22:14:55
 
el ted

 

Posts: 466
Joined: Nov. 13 2003
 

RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (in reply to ToddK) 
Both! If I am playing at a fast tempo I haven't time to retract and flick every time.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 7 2007 7:34:13
 
sianturi

 

Posts: 13
Joined: Feb. 18 2007
 

RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (in reply to ToddK) 
Hi TK,

i don't know what consensus there exists, but I can tell you what I found about that question in these days.

Cock and flick the fingers from the flesh of the thumb or palm can give your rasgueado a very sharp, loud, twangy sound that is ideal for 'special effects'. Disadvantage is that it needs time to prepare, so it cannot be used in all situations. Also there is a little time penalty after you've done it, because the fingers tend to 'get lost' from the impact.

Nevertheless I found out that you can develop your rasgueado to have this twangy sound _always_ by building the tension directly on the strings. This is how it goes:
- Move your hand nearer to tapa, into strings, when you believe you cannot go further, another 10 mm, please
- If you are near the strings your nails come into better position, the plane of the tapa is nearly the same as the plane of your nails.
- Cock and flick the _string_ by pushing it with nail towards tapa
- String will hit the fingerboard with more or less string impact, giving you the sound you want
- Doing like this you will notice that your thumb wants to go behind 6th string to compensate for the pressure.

I use this style since 2 weeks and it actually changed my life. There are advantages only, no drawbacks. More control, speed, absolutely flamenco sounding, less effort, no preparation time, no dead time after, suitable for continuous rasgueado, everything!

Thanks,
Sianturi
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 7 2007 16:29:46
Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to ToddK) 
[Deleted by Admins]

_____________________________
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 7 2007 17:29:52
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (in reply to ToddK) 
Isnt cocking allways a good thing? hehe (Except in combination with gays...sorry.)..... COME ON MAAN COME ON!!! WWHOOOOOO! Damn, some weeks ago I wanted to take some drinks with my girlfriend in a nice bar and got in one of those rainbowbars. I was suprised coz there were no leathergays dancing tango argentino.... But different strange..... well..ok.. After we left it, as rapidly as we could, I buyed a trousers. And the sellers were gays!! And 3 gays were trying many clothes in 2 lockers, so there were no free ones left. Well,.. the seller was a nice person and told me that I could try the trouthers I chose in the cellar if I want, coz the 3 Guys need moe time. There was a little thing, he told me that the room downstairs isnt camera saved, so he would have to go with me downstairs where I could try the trouthers!! MAAAN WHAT THE??? AAAAHHH!!! Well,... I went downstairs with him and took my girlfriend with me. I was happy, there was a changingroom..huh.. Well... forget it. Have to play in a danceshool now,.. Im late.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 7 2007 18:03:37
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (in reply to Doitsujin) 
?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 7 2007 20:06:35
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (in reply to sianturi) 
quote:

Cock and flick the fingers from the flesh of the thumb or palm can give your rasgueado a very sharp, loud, twangy sound that is ideal for 'special effects'.


Yeah and "special effect" is the main point IMO.
Players who use this constantly tend to sound very impressive at first, but 10 minutes later it becomes boring.

Much like Ricardo's "Woody-Woodpecker" analogy.
A nice touch, but done "generally", actually becomes even annoying.

On this subject, I think most amateurs play in an on/off.. focus/autopilot way.
That is they'll focus on the complicated falsetas and finish off in an autopilot way to catch their breath and think about the next passage.
Thing is, the seasoned listener tends to home in on these little "autopilot" parts IMO, which quickly separates them from the pros, who have learned from years and years of playing to measure and balance their playing as a whole and not to overdo a neat little idea.

cheers

Ron

_____________________________

A good guitar might be a good guitar
But it takes a woman to break your heart
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 7 2007 20:22:35

ToddK

 

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
 

RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (in reply to ToddK) 
wow, this is all very interesting.

I was thinking i would get a very black and white sort of answer.
I was positive people like Paco, etc always cocked the fingers, all the time.
From what i remember, my father always flicked from the base of the thumb.

Really cool to read all these thoughts and views. Food for thought, and i
will look at ras a bit more open mindedly now.

Thanks all.
TK

_____________________________
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 7 2007 20:47:21
 
Conrad

Posts: 533
Joined: Jul. 16 2003
From: Toronto, ON, Canada

RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (in reply to Guest) 
Oh, Kevin... how you keep torturing me with mention of those vids, hehehe,

and Doitsujin... how you keep torturing me with laughter. I don't even know what this post is all about but I still laughed...

For the record, I almost always flick unless I want a subtle phrase ending.

Oh, and Doitsujin, you only got three "cocking" techniques, that's it? You need to study up, son! I got like 8 at last count... They all produce different sounds... coming from my blonde bombshell... hehe

Con

_____________________________
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 7 2007 20:59:26
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (in reply to ToddK) 
Hahha
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 7 2007 21:06:39
 
ykabban

 

Posts: 251
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
 

RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (in reply to ToddK) 
Doing rasgueados without loading will always result in a half-ass rasgueo, no matter who you are. If anyone disagrees, post a clip of a total free-fingers approach and prepare to be creamed.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 7 2007 23:17:01
 
aloysius

Posts: 233
Joined: Apr. 7 2005
From: Adelaide, Australia

RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (in reply to ToddK) 
When I've looked closely at the hands of teachers I've had (mostly from Seville) I've found that the majority of the time they do Rasgueos exactly as Ricardo described - NOT all cocked against the thumb, but cocked against each other - the ring finger pressing sideways against the middle, the middle against the index, the index against the side of the thumb. All fingers against the thumb will give a special "hard and dirty" effect, however fingers cocked against each other can give a light effect while being crisp and powerful IMO - e.g. vicente in the Cordoba DVD.

- Aloysius

_____________________________

www.guitarsketches.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 8 2007 1:39:29
Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to aloysius) 
[Deleted by Admins]

_____________________________
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 8 2007 3:45:12
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (in reply to Doitsujin) 
quote:

Isnt cocking allways a good thing? hehe (Except in combination with gays...sorry.)..... COME ON MAAN COME ON!!! WWHOOOOOO! Damn, some weeks ago I wanted to take some drinks with my girlfriend in a nice bar and got in one of those rainbowbars. I was suprised coz there were no leathergays dancing tango argentino.... But different strange..... well..ok.. After we left it, as rapidly as we could, I buyed a trousers. And the sellers were gays!! And 3 gays were trying many clothes in 2 lockers, so there were no free ones left. Well,.. the seller was a nice person and told me that I could try the trouthers I chose in the cellar if I want, coz the 3 Guys need moe time. There was a little thing, he told me that the room downstairs isnt camera saved, so he would have to go with me downstairs where I could try the trouthers!! MAAAN WHAT THE??? AAAAHHH!!! Well,... I went downstairs with him and took my girlfriend with me. I was happy, there was a changingroom..huh.. Well... forget it. Have to play in a danceshool now,.. Im late.


uh....
he?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 8 2007 6:00:25
Page:   [1] 2 3    >   >>
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: [1] 2 3    >   >>
Jump to:

New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET

0.09375 secs.