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RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one??   You are logged in as Guest
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Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to TANúñez) 
The pic you just posted of Paco above, that is the same guitar on the calendar. I am positive.

Ricardo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 14 2007 19:03:26
 
TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

OK, this rosette above, the Felipe V is NOT the exact same as Paco's. I have this Flamenco world Calendar still saved from 2006 with Paco on the cover, extreme close up, and you can see the rosete real clear.


Ok, now I'm confussed, is the pic I posted the same as the calender or not?

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Tom Núñez
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 14 2007 19:11:39
 
mentrida

 

Posts: 55
Joined: Jun. 19 2004
 

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to Ricardo) 
Hey guys,

Just to add more twists. I read in a spanish forum from someone who is said to know PDL that he has had his old trusty guitar refinished and left without the orange tint. The rosette was said to be changed at the same time the other work was done since the original one was badly damaged from all the years of use.

Just more fuel to the fire
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 14 2007 19:30:29
 
legrec

Posts: 248
Joined: Jan. 26 2006
From: France

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to mentrida) 
Thanks Mentrida ! (and cheers !)
I'm on the same line...
A big touch up, but the same guitar for me. The rosewood streaks on the sides are so similar !

One day we'll get the true answer, guys...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 14 2007 19:48:25
 
TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to mentrida) 
quote:

Just to add more twists. I read in a spanish forum from someone who is said to know PDL that he has had his old trusty guitar refinished and left without the orange tint. The rosette was said to be changed at the same time the other work was done since the original one was badly damaged from all the years of use.


If this is the case then I am going to assume he had the whole top replaced. This would be easier than a complete refinish, route out the old rosette and install a new one. More feasable to just replace the whole top.

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Tom Núñez
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 14 2007 20:39:51
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to TANúñez) 
tom wrote:
If this is the case then I am going to assume he had the whole top replaced. This would be easier than a complete refinish, route out the old rosette and install a new one. More feasable to just replace the whole top.
---------------------
If a person had the patience he could remove the fingerboard and install a new rosette with basic hand tools; but I can't imagine doing it. I've only replaced a guitar top once and swore I'd never do it again. Why? It's easier to build a whole new guitar. PDL probably has a bunch of Conde guitars and you can bet that he gets the best of the best. It's not out of the question that Conde could have sawn multiple East Indian Rosewood sides out of one plank and built several guitars with virtually identical sides. Maybe PDL has a pair with different colored tops?

John Shelton
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 14 2007 23:23:55
 
legrec

Posts: 248
Joined: Jan. 26 2006
From: France

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to jshelton5040) 
Hola!
First,
quote:

It's easier to build a whole new guitar


Yes, but as a lot of people and as Tom said it before, I've heard several times that Paco was supertitious and was stuck to his guitar, because he was "frightened" or unpleased to use another one + Ricardo said :
quote:

Flamencoguru asked Juan Estrada who said it was the "same guitar as always, he had it touched up".


So I think it's not the difficulty of a repair/change wich must lead our toughts. It's Paco, and if he wants to keep the same guitar, I suppose he can ask anything as long as it's possible...

Second thing,
quote:

Conde could have sawn multiple East Indian Rosewood sides out of one plank and built several guitars with virtually identical sides. Maybe PDL has a pair with different colored tops?


This was an option i thought about, but now there is a problem with the rosette : how could we explain that the rosette of the "twin" guitar (supposely built in the 70's) is a recent model ?
The oldest conde i've been able to find with this rosette is a 1990. I believe i've saw also some late 80' with similar rosettes (anyone?), but I do think it's not a 70' design... Conde rosette were really different at the time, as far as I can see.
That's why i gave up the "twin" guitars "built at the same time" explanation...Or perhaps they kept the same stash of rosewood for Paco, and made another one later ?

Third,
quote:

If this is the case then I am going to assume he had the whole top replaced. This would be easier than a complete refinish, route out the old rosette and install a new one. More feasable to just replace the whole top.


Tom, it's Paco ! I mean, it's not a "easier" problem. For sure myself I'll probably never ask a luthier to change my rosette, because I don't like it's style but if Paco wants to keep his guitar with the same soundboard and wants/need to refinish it and change the rosette...no problem. As long as it's not an impossible operation for sure...

In the end, the top or the rosette replacement and several refinish still seems to be the strongest hypotesis, like Mentrida said, IMHO.
But perhaps someone will add new clues or questions in this Holmesian thread...

As I'm enjoying a lot this inquiry, I send a call here for all good quality pics of Paco with his guitar(s) !
I feel the comparison of the grain of the head would also be a stable point of comparison, but can't find much pic enought clear to tell..From the first images Ricardo gave, they look similar to me also...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 15 2007 0:05:50
 
chinito

 

Posts: 104
Joined: Jun. 14 2004
 

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to Ricardo) 
My money's on the lighter topped Conde being a newer guitar. A good pic of the battered top and old rosette is on the cover of Paco's "Antologia". I have a Sanchis with virtually the same rosette and have seen pics of it on a later Gerundino, so it was probably a mass-produced design.

I was also looking at the pair of pics posted by Tom. It looks like the purfling is different in each pic. This could also just be reflections of stage lights along the edges of the bouts. The "newer" Conde looks lacquered and I'm assuming "old reliable" was french polished (less glossy)?

-Jake.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 15 2007 0:34:03
 
legrec

Posts: 248
Joined: Jan. 26 2006
From: France

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to chinito) 
quote:

My money's on the lighter topped Conde being a newer guitar


We need Dominic to open a new poll here !
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 15 2007 0:37:53
 
legrec

Posts: 248
Joined: Jan. 26 2006
From: France

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to legrec) 
For sure the soundbard needed a repair !



Another point perhaps for the "new" guitar : the tuning machine knobs are now of ebony, unlike the "old" conde.
But changing knobs/mechanics is perhaps too easy to be a solid point of comparison ?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 15 2007 1:26:28
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to legrec) 
quote:

Ok, now I'm confussed, is the pic I posted the same as the calender or not?


The pic you posted of Paco's guitar IS the same as the calendar, but that rosette is not the same as the Felipe V Conde you put next to it. Look at the white part, the outer and inner ring, it is longer on Paco's than the orange conde. But the close up calendar view shows the details that make the difference. Point being from FAR AWAY the rosette of the modern conde and paco's DO look similar. Is that clear?

True that Pic Legrec put above shows the rosette was in pretty bad shape too, along with the top. But in 1997, the guitar has same sides, rosette is the same but "repaired", the scratch is fixed, and the overall color was redone, more "orange" than "red". at least to my eye. Compare the side views of Paco's guitar in Light and Shade (1994) to Francisco Sanchez (2001) I mean the live footage. Infact compare the Concert footage on DVD2 to the live footage of paco in Francisco sanchez. That is the SAME guitar for sure, just repaired.

The weirdest thing is this vague news about it getting a touch up recently yet looks TOTALLY different, except for the sides.

I am personally going along with the rumour told by someone from a "spanish forum". The finish was left "natural", and the rosette changed. Simply because the "changing the top", is like it might as well be a new guitar. What is so special about the back and sides/neck??

Ricardo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 15 2007 4:57:40
 
chinito

 

Posts: 104
Joined: Jun. 14 2004
 

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to Ricardo) 
There may be another way to check if they're two different guitars. We all know what a "media luna" crest looks like, but there's some noticeable changes that can be seen between older and current Conde headstocks.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 16 2007 20:49:16
 
chinito

 

Posts: 104
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RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to Ricardo) 
Whoops. Cut my post in half. The hadstock above is from a Felipe V Conde from 2003. Here's a head fom an '85 Gravina Conde:

Newer Condes appear to have a chamfered edge to the headplate and more "robust" proportions to the crest carving. The central notch is larger and the side "dimples" have less lift along their lower edges. Not sure when the changes started. Sometime during the '90s? Just a guess, so don't quote me on that.

I think Don Pohren's bio of Paco mentions his trusty negra was made in 1981 by the Gravina shop. If this is correct, the head should be pretty close to the '85 Headstock I posted above. If it's a new Felipe V it would be like the '03 headstock. The Dan Zeff site is a good place to check out more headstock pics for comparison.

-Jake.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 16 2007 21:08:04
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to TANúñez) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: TANúñez






OK, looking close at the rosette, I realize the inner and outer rings are the same as the old design. Is it possible to change just the inner portion of the rosette?

The headstock thing we thought about already, but so far I can't find any good clear fotos of the newest guitar's headstock. I have a good shot of the old one with the scratch, but it is in a book, I can't load it.

Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 16 2007 21:16:21
 
TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to Ricardo) 
I still think they are different guitars. All the rosewood on the new guitars looks darker than on Paco's old guitar. In the Light and shade vid, it looks pretty light. Which is why I thought it could actually be PauFerro. However, in some photos, the old guitar looks dark. I supposed a lot has to do with the lighting.

I think someone should just email his Brother Ramon and ask him. Hopefully he'll humor us and reply.

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Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 16 2007 21:43:34
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to TANúñez) 
How about the top itself? Any distinguishing marks?

http://www.pacodelucia.org/galeria/paco-de-lucia-2.jpg
Or here, bottom right live pic:
http://images.google.com/images?q=paco+de+Lucia&gbv=1&svnum=10&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=ISO-8859-1&start=60&sa=N

I notice two dark shade lines on either side of the center line, making a long V from behind the bridge pointing toward the sound hole. See it? How about here?

http://www.rgpfm.com/IMAGES/NOTICIAS/paco_de_lucia.jpg

And here is an old pic from the 80's even before the scratch (standing black and white photo):

http://images.google.com/images?q=paco+de+Lucia&gbv=1&svnum=10&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=ISO-8859-1&start=100&sa=N

I think we are seeing the SAME guitar.

Shoot, none of those images are loading well now. But I could see it when I searched google for those pics. I am pretty convinced now.

Ricardo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 16 2007 21:57:27
 
legrec

Posts: 248
Joined: Jan. 26 2006
From: France

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to Ricardo) 
Man, you nailed it !!
For sure it's the same guitar. Look at the streaks on the soundboard, after the bridge.. These streaks are on all the pics, even those with the new rosette !
So, same veins in the rosewood, same streaks on the table = same guitar. BUT new rosette, and several finishs...Man, he WANTED to keep his conde...



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 16 2007 23:47:22
 
JasonM

Posts: 2054
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to legrec) 
Based on the edvidence presented, I here by declare Mr. de Lucia guilty of guitar necromancy!!

Good work Ricardo.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 17 2007 1:14:21
 
TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to JasonM) 
Maybe you guitar detectives can help me out. I'm positive that the fingerboard on this guitar played by the legendary Esteban, is ebony in one photo. Then in the other photo, it appears to be rosewood but could be due to the lighting. Although I am positive that this is the same guitar. Could he have replaced the fingerboard? I've checked the guitar out on youtube, calenders and internet photos and I am positive that this is the same guitar. Look at the two tone coloring of the Monterey Cypress on the sides and lower bout. The striping appears to be continuous from the heel the the end bout. It has to be the same guitar. It just has to be!



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_____________________________

Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 17 2007 4:08:55
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to TANúñez) 
quote:

Maybe you guitar detectives can help me out.




Same hat. I know that I need to get that american flag sticker for my conde.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 17 2007 6:39:38
 
TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to Ricardo) 
That sticker is what gives him his magic.

_____________________________

Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 17 2007 12:43:14
 
Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to legrec) 
quote:

For me it's the same guitar. I've put the three pics aside.


Looks like a different guitar to me.
The two colour pictures: the left seems to have those silver barrels that Conde use and the right picture shows the guitar with white barrels. Sure, they could have been replaced but I don't think so.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 17 2007 19:28:58
 
legrec

Posts: 248
Joined: Jan. 26 2006
From: France

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to Jim Opfer) 
Jim,

Few weeks ago I asked my luthier to replace the white barrels (rollers) by black ones. He told me : very easy, we just need to buy the black rollers. If I can, Paco can.. Remember it's suppose to be his beloved guitar wich had accompagnied him all along his successfull career...
For me, the wood grain of the soundboard and of the top side shows clearly that it's the same guitar (+ the comment of Juan Estrada saying it was the same guitar + the message of Mentrida above).

I bet Paco had made several good lifting to his beloved...Hey, do you know a star who is not paying big liftings to his beloved ?
For some it's silicone injections, for others it's a rosette change...

It includes the finish of the soundboard, probably the substitution of the rosette, and the knobs (switch to ebony) and roller change, IMO

I feel the "It's the same guitar" camp now need some solid evidences to relaunch the inquiry !
Look at Tom, he put down a pic of Esteban to made ourself forgot about Paco's guitar
(just kiddin')
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 17 2007 20:15:45
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to Ricardo) 
Talked to local guitar maestro and guitar dealer Paco de Malaga, who knows PDL very well. He said the guitar is the same guitar. He had it done in Mexico, maybe very cheap or free?? But anyway, he just wanted it touched up or restored, but it came back with clear finish and new rosette and he was like WTF!!!!??? Not what he had ordered at all. Perhaps they made a mistake, or just not clear on what Paco wanted done. In anycase, it sounded OK, and he likes the feel of that guitar after using it so many years, so he likes to keep using it.

He went on to tell me a funny story about the night he played in DC. PDL had ordered food, specifically WARM soup, but he got cold sandwiches that tasted like ****. (I can vouch for that since I know the restaurant that catered for the venue!). So he felt really cold and could not warm up, and was starving. (You can read my comments regarding the show in the other thread). So after he was real hungry and cold and wanted to get the hell out, no autographs.

So this young guy ushering had a guitar for Paco to sign and ran after him in the street after Paco ducked out the back with P.Malaga. Paco signed it but the guy played some really bad mediterranean sundance for him and wanted a photo. It is FREEZING out there I might add. PDL says sorry I gotta go. They get in P. Malaga's car. The guy comes with his wife now "no we need a photo!". PDL rolls the window down "so sorry I really must go". As he rolls up the window the guy grabs it and won't let it roll up. They fight over it for a moment until the window breaks!! P. malaga was really PO'd!

Ricardo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 17 2007 21:56:43
 
TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

He said the guitar is the same guitar. He had it done in Mexico, maybe very cheap or free?? But anyway, he just wanted it touched up or restored, but it came back with clear finish and new rosette and he was like WTF!!!!??? Not what he had ordered at all.


OMG!!! This Mexican luthier has no idea what the hell he just did. Didn't Paco already have this guitar restored or touched up before? When he played DFW a few years back, it was already restored (orange finish) pretty much like the original. From where I was sitting, dead center third row, the guitar looked great.

At least now we can put an end to this mystery. Let's start another one. What happened to Sabicas DeVoe? Shortly after he died, this DeVoe and some of his other guitars were stolen and never seen again.

_____________________________

Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 17 2007 23:11:06
 
legrec

Posts: 248
Joined: Jan. 26 2006
From: France

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to Ricardo) 
Paco let his guitar in Mexico ! I already heard great opinions about some Mexican builders, now this is astonishing. Now Ricardo, your mission (if you accept it) is to know whom builder it was. I put ten bucks on Benito Huipe, even if it's probably not him... That's really a strange story overall : Paco eating cold disgusting sandwiches and having an undesired color and rosette change made to his beloved guitar. Man, I'm happy not being a star...

And Tom, you new inquiry is really interesting. But I give up personally, it's way too hard this time... One day perhaps we'll see the Devoe pop up from somewhere to sale ? BTW, really bad kharma for the robber...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 17 2007 23:29:52
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to TANúñez) 
quote:

Shortly after he died, this DeVoe and some of his other guitars were stolen and never seen again.


REALLY? Because I know a guy who claims, or admitted to me when I asked him based on rumours I heard, that supposedly "inherited" ALL of Sabicas guitars after he died.

But for the record, this guy seems to me to have a lot of "amzing" stories and history, if you get my meaning? But he stayed at my house once, doing a gig in town, but was in process of moving. so he had like half a dozen flamenco guitars in his car, that he brought into my kitchen! He said he had a lot more and was moving them to his new home, a little at a time.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 18 2007 10:03:32
 
legrec

Posts: 248
Joined: Jan. 26 2006
From: France

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to Ricardo) 
héhéhé...seems that detective Ricardo has some footsteps...maybe this inquiry is not a "cold case" yet.
But we must be careful not to condamn anyone without proofs... Ricardo, the guy was perhaps "speaking too much", if you see what i mean, but he indeed had a bunch of guitars, right ? Big mouths usually can't show anything to support their claims..
Maybe he confused the word "inherited" with "borrowed without permission" ?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 18 2007 13:53:58
 
TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

REALLY? Because I know a guy who claims, or admitted to me when I asked him based on rumours I heard, that supposedly "inherited" ALL of Sabicas guitars after he died.


Yes Really. The DeVoe and I believe some of his Ramirez' were stolen. Lester can confirm this.

_____________________________

Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 18 2007 14:38:27
 
Consiliere

 

Posts: 4
Joined: Apr. 3 2007
 

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to Ricardo) 
TANúñez wrote:

quote:

Ok. This is the guitar I think Paco is using now. It is from the Felipe V shop. The one pictured is orange finish and Paco's is natural. Same rosette though and different than the one on his trusty old Conde.


Sorry I wasn't able to quote the attached photos, so go back to Feb. 14.

In rosette question please consider this:

This is the rosette of a Vicente Carillo made Paco de Lucia model 1a.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 5 2007 3:04:48
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