Foro Flamenco


Posts Since Last Visit | Advanced Search | Home | Register | Login

Today's Posts | Inbox | Profile | Our Rules | Contact Admin | Log Out



Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.





Paco's new guitar...same old one??   You are logged in as Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >> Page: [1] 2 3    >   >>
Login
Message<< Newer Topic  Older Topic >>
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

Paco's new guitar...same old one?? 
Ok, his old redish guitar with the scratch, notice the pattern on the sides above the neck. From left to right you see diagonal line pattern, two light lines, one black line stand out.
http://www.vervemusicgroup.com/images/local/vmgartists/bf2bde3c-a0dc-4f2a-afa3-2d78e53e9756.jpg

So I always assumed that he got the scratch fixed and the top re stained (more orange around 1997) and re finished since I recognize the exact same grain pattern on the sides, same rosette.
http://www.omni.lt/includes/img/330_361438_paco.jpg

Here is the guitar I saw on saturday, natural finish, but same rosette/grain pattern on the sides!
http://www.periodistadigital.com/imgs/efep/20070211/152093w.jpg

I know these pics are not so great, but I saw the difference in color with my own eyes.

So, my question is, is this the SAME guitar? I mean could the pattern on sides be litterally identical on two different guitars?

Assuming it IS the same guitar, how difficult is it to RE STAIN a guitar top like that... and why would he do it for cryn out loud??? Wouldn't it involve sanding off a significant amount of wood from the top, changing the sound?

Ricardo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2007 20:40:59
 
legrec

Posts: 248
Joined: Jan. 26 2006
From: France

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to Ricardo) 
Ricardo,

For me it's the same guitar. I've put the three pics aside.
The top could have been refinished, but builders here would tell us ?
Or it's a picture/color issue ?



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2007 20:53:52
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to legrec) 
quote:

Or it's a picture/color issue ?


Not possible, because I saw the guitar in 2004, very clearly with my own eyes, it was bright orange. This weekend the guitar was very clearly "natural" finish, a tanish/yellowish color.

Meaning, I think he had the guitar restained and refinished TWICE, within the last 10 years.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2007 20:57:18
 
legrec

Posts: 248
Joined: Jan. 26 2006
From: France

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to Ricardo) 
He haves the dineros to refinish his guitar 20 times a day...
He wants to have his guitar clean.. I've heard some pro are treating Reyes, Gerundinos, etc like waste...

Hey, from wich conde shop is his guitar ?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2007 21:03:55
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to Ricardo) 
Here is a vid. You can see the grain pattern at 4:54 for a second.


That is the color of the guitar as I saw it this weekend.

Here is what it looked like in 2004:


I know the lighting is very different, but that orange color is what it used look like to my eyes (at the live show I saw then) too.

Ricardo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2007 21:07:23
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to legrec) 
quote:

Hey, from wich conde shop is his guitar ?


Gravina, the original shop. I first saw him using it in concert photos and vids from early 80's. I am sure someone here knows the specific year it was born.

Ricardo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2007 21:09:40
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to legrec) 
quote:

He haves the dineros to refinish his guitar 20 times a day...


Well, I know a guy who could start doing my guitar tommorrow, but my point is, wouldn't it affect the sound significantly???

Ricardo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2007 21:11:13
 
legrec

Posts: 248
Joined: Jan. 26 2006
From: France

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to Ricardo) 
Sure it looks like a refinish ! I didn't know it was possible to switch from the orange "conde" to a natural finish...
On the whole it's still the same guitar IMO. Even the grain pattern of the head is equal (i was thinking perhaps of "twin" guitars, made with the same wood but it's not convincing).

About your refinish, I'm sure a builder would be better than me here but i've heard so much times that the finish do not have such a big impact on the final sound, as long as it is well made (not too thick and homogeneous). Perhaps it will make a change in your sound perception, but i guess it would be rather subtle...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2007 21:12:19
 
JasonM

Posts: 2055
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to Ricardo) 
Right. If you look right here you can see that the figure looks identical on the three guitars.

I remember doing some archived searches on top refinishing. From what I remember, it is not recomended (of course) because you almost have to scrape a little of the wood underneath the laquer. French polish is a lot easier to get off I think. Mabey his guitar is enchanted and made by aliens. Mabey Paco is also an alien.



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2007 21:15:00
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to JasonM) 
Perhaps Paco is a Wizard, and can change the guitar's color at will, or put the "cloak of invisablility" on his guitar, like he does here at 00:28
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2007 21:29:23
 
legrec

Posts: 248
Joined: Jan. 26 2006
From: France

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to Ricardo) 
It's terrific ! You were just right Jason...paco in fact is not coming from andalucia, he came from "Flamenco del centauri" - 5,2 lightyears from earth, where the flamenco level is unbelevably high (Paco is the worst of the Flacentauri actually). I've heard the next step is that they will sent a ray on each foroflamenco member, upgrading their flamenco abilities by 1000%. And after, our mission will be to convert each human being to flamenco

Seriously, it's totally weird ! There is only one possibility : it had been edited by someone. It's rather easy to make disapear the guitar because the background (paco's shirt and the blue blackground) is rather homogeneous. You can actually see the editing on his right arm (too skinny, the shirt is not "dropping").
But why someone would bother doing that ? To show Paco is a magician or an alien ?



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2007 21:38:36
 
tk

Posts: 524
Joined: Jun. 15 2006
 

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to Ricardo) 
Ricardo,

i agree with the wood grains but I don't think this is the same guitar because of the rosette. The rosette doesn't seem to be the same. Do you guys think he changed the rosette too??? I doubt.

TK
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2007 22:23:09
 
TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to Ricardo) 
I don't think it's the same guitar. It's one thing to refinish a top and match or touch up the color. It's another to completely strip the original color off and refinish it. On his original Conde, that top is stained with the color. To remove it would also mean removing some of the top wood thinning it's thickness and possibly killing it's tone.

It could possibly be that both rosewoods have very similar grain patterns but from these photos, I don't see them being exact but close. I think Paco newest guitar is a new model Conde from the Felipe V shop. Unless Gravina is using the same rosettes.



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2007 22:24:27
 
TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to TANúñez) 
The new Conde's rosette also has more green in it.



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2007 22:26:44
 
tk

Posts: 524
Joined: Jun. 15 2006
 

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to TANúñez) 
I agree with Tom. That was my point on a different thread a month ago (i think). The new one seems to be from the Felipe V shop.

TK
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2007 22:28:12
 
legrec

Posts: 248
Joined: Jan. 26 2006
From: France

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to TANúñez) 
Tom and TK, look at the streaks of the upper side in my pic at the beginning of the thread. Is it possible to have a coincidence of such ressembling streaks on the indian rosewood ?? Man, i'd swear it's the same side on the 3 pics..

Hey, if you say it's impossible to change the color like this, is it possible that he made a top replacement ?

And for the "green" on the rosette, i would say there are too much color changes between light/pictures to be able to tell from the rosette color, no ?

Man, we're nerds spoiling time on identifiyng Paco the alien guitar...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2007 22:35:09
 
tk

Posts: 524
Joined: Jun. 15 2006
 

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to legrec) 
LOL, you are right about the "nerds".

I see your point eventhough the streaks are not completely identical, there is a huge similarity. but then how come the rosette is different?

Paco's guitar is "indian" rosewood????? I always yhought it was brazilian

TK
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2007 23:14:57
 
legrec

Posts: 248
Joined: Jan. 26 2006
From: France

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to tk) 
Yup for the indian, i'm not at all Paco nerd, and just thought it was indian by seeing the sides.
Too bad there are not much high resolution pics of the guitar on the web...
I agree there are perhaps some small differences on the streaks. And for the rosette, they look almost the same for me even if i notice some differences. But i know that rosette changes a LOT in relation of the distance/light/camera angle, etc.
(i'm only grounding my opinions on the pics we have here on the thread, i haven't find any others valuable ones on the web).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2007 23:24:39
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to TANúñez) 
Tom wrote:
It's another to completely strip the original color off and refinish it. On his original Conde, that top is stained with the color. To remove it would also mean removing some of the top wood thinning it's thickness and possibly killing it's tone.
-----------------
The color is in the finish not on the wood. If it's done with great care one can remove the finish hence the color without removing topwood. Normally clear coats are applied before the color coat(s), so by slowly removing the layers of finish one can theoretically remove the color without even touching the wood.

If the rosettes are different it's a different guitar. They seem different but I can't really tell on my computer.

John Shelton
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2007 23:51:32
 
legrec

Posts: 248
Joined: Jan. 26 2006
From: France

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to jshelton5040) 
Thank you John. Ever heard or made a top replacement ? I'm curious to know if it's possible...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2007 23:56:03
 
JasonM

Posts: 2055
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to TANúñez) 
OH? Are you suggesting that he uses a bolt on top? Which he can switch out depending on his mood? The only other reasonable possibility would be nano laquer, which will change colors (but only to adjacent colors in the spectrum as seen here--yellow to orange) by applying a strong magnetic feild.

How do you explain the "disappearing guitar"? Clearly there is something we are missing. Something big.

Hey I know who would know. Paco de Malaga!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 14 2007 0:48:10
 
TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to jshelton5040) 
quote:

The color is in the finish not on the wood. If it's done with great care one can remove the finish hence the color without removing topwood. Normally clear coats are applied before the color coat(s), so by slowly removing the layers of finish one can theoretically remove the color without even touching the wood.


I was under the impression that the color was shot on first, then clear coated afterwards? This is why I said you'd sand away a bit of the top to get down to the natural finish.

_____________________________

Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 14 2007 1:09:33
 
legrec

Posts: 248
Joined: Jan. 26 2006
From: France

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to JasonM) 
quote:

Clearly there is something we are missing. Something big.


You like ScienceFiction, don't you ?

But for sure, there are some shadows and mysteries around paco's guitars ! Damn anybody there has the definitive answer on these "different" guitars ?

And about the disapearing guitar, i really think it's just a joke of someone, to underline paco's magical abilities...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 14 2007 1:10:38
 
TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to TANúñez) 
It is possible to replace the top. I just don't think Paco would do this to his long companion. I had heard Paco was a bit superstitious and a big reason why he continues to play his old Conde over his own signature line of guitars. If he is, I don't see him replacing the top of his trusty old Conde.

I have also heard that this old Conde was Pauferro and not Indian or Brazilian rosewood.

If you all really want to know, why not email his brother Ramon or his friend/business assoc., Juan Estrada?

ramon@pacodelucia.org
juan@pacodelucia.org

_____________________________

Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 14 2007 1:15:01
 
legrec

Posts: 248
Joined: Jan. 26 2006
From: France

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to TANúñez) 
quote:

I just don't think Paco would do this to his long companion


Agree ! Unless he had to ? But i'm still on the "refinishing" hypothesis until we can clearly prove that the rosette are different...

And i'm not paco nerd enought to ask Ramon or Juan
(my own guitar god is Serranito )
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 14 2007 1:32:44
 
JasonM

Posts: 2055
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to legrec) 
Legrec, I am a man of science not fiction

Well, I suppose its not unreasonable to say that Paco could have three very similar and unbelievably sounding Condes. Conde could go to extremes in making a guitar for Paco. Maybe they make 10 replecas and give him the closest? And for Paco, its a good investment, and he could afford to do it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 14 2007 1:53:49
 
TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to Ricardo) 
Ok. This is the guitar I think Paco is using now. It is from the Felipe V shop. The one pictured is orange finish and Paco's is natural. Same rosette though and different than the one on his trusty old Conde.



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 14 2007 2:12:35
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to Ricardo) 
TO BE CONTNUED NEXT WEEK!!!!!!!!

Can you wait?

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 14 2007 7:32:46
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to Ricardo) 
Cool interesting info about changing color if there is a clear coat put on first. I thought the stain goes right on the bare wood first, like Tom was saying.

OK, this rosette above, the Felipe V is NOT the exact same as Paco's. I have this Flamenco world Calendar still saved from 2006 with Paco on the cover, extreme close up, and you can see the rosete real clear.
http://www.flamenco-world.com/magazine/fotos/calendario2006/indice07122005.htm
That pic is small, but the actual pic on the calendar is like 5-6 inches high.
It IS a similar design, but the outer ring the light and red are longer. The red diamonds inside, are longer too. So a similar design, but not the same.

However, it is absolutely true this is NOT the same rosette on the Orange guitar he used 3 years ago. The outside rings are similar, but the inside again totally different design, larger circular shapes, not linked diamonds.

But man, I am not seeing that grain pattern as "similar", it looks Identical to me. If it was straight grain, I would admit, but it is on the same diagonal, with the same sequence of light and dark lines, which should not happen in nature to different pieces of wood.

Could it be, he changed the top, or changed the rosette too? Yeah, that seems crazy. Like it might as well be a new guitar.

Maybe he IS superstitious. Last time he used a different guitar live, it "dissappeared"! LOL. So he changed the top, but kept the back and sides?? maybe it cracked or something who knows. Maybe the guy who was suposed refinish, messed it up and thought he would not notice if he changed the top all together?? Nah. I dont' know man, it is weird, because I really think it is the same side wood.

And remember when we first saw the guitar, Flamencoguru asked Juan Estrada who said it was the "same guitar as always, he had it touched up".
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 14 2007 18:11:59
 
TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Paco's new guitar...same old one?? (in reply to Ricardo) 
I have this same photo from the Calender but very large and it's not the same one as I posted. You know, it is possible that Paco is playing different new conde's and not the same one.

_____________________________

Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 14 2007 18:50:05
Page:   [1] 2 3    >   >>
All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >> Page: [1] 2 3    >   >>
Jump to:

New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET

0.078125 secs.