Lets be negative

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Lets be negative

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JasonM

Posts: 2055
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

Lets be negative

Do you have any pet peeves that involve flamenco? Things that agrravate the hell out of you but may not bother others? Or, mabey you have some particular dislikes or preferences involving the music or form.

Here is what I'm getting at. Some of mine for example:

I hate electric bass in flamenco. It just sounds cheesy. When I hear electric bass it reminds me of some 70's/disco/elevator music or something. It makes me think that Spanish flamencos have locked in on this erra-- electric bass, cocaine, mullets, and gold chains.

The chorus in cante records and even on some guitar records. It does provide a break for the listener, so he doesn't have to hear the same voice constantly. But use two GOOD singers on your album and exchange some letras. Enough with the damn chorus. Listen to Potito's new album or Duquende's latest album. If it isn't Fandangos or some cante jondo, its got a chorus. And it always sounds the same!. Everytime! Well duh.. its a refrain. No. I mean from song to song, album to album. It is just as formulaic as Pop music. They always have some generic husky sounding guy paired up with a female singer for the chorus part. Then at the end of the verse/s of the chorus, the star singer closes the chorus. I usually wind up overlooking the chorus or getting used to it.

Wait! theres more. I'm not done yet.

Trebbly pop sounding rumbas. Like nuevo sounding ones. Rumbas can sound cool. They don't have to be all trebble range. I am getting tired of trebbly sounding trarantos, and vicente amigo's wheeping trebbles. Ok. I think thats enough for now. I'm getting carried away here.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 24 2007 21:30:23

Mark2

Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Lets be negative (in reply to JasonM)

Oh man, your opening a can of worms. First I agree with you about the bass. Everyone's got to have fretless. I'd like to hear some regular bass instead of another Jaco wannbe. It's like they are all sheep. "I must have the farting fretless bass!"
I'm also with you on the choros-liked them at first, but it's been done.

The whole crazy thing about a guitarist being judged by people who don't play any instrument, ie dancers, singers, is something I have to admit I never warmed up to. I understand it, but as a guitarist/musician, I reject it. Much as I love flamenco cuadro, I stopped pusuing it because of politics and established traditions. It's simply not my cup of tea.
It's absurd some of the things various insecure individuals do to "out flamenco" others involved in flamenco. Fake accents, fake hair color, fake bios, fake ,fake, fake. Pretending they can't speak/understand english!!! And my personal favorite-fake ignorance of cultural things that most amercians know, but which real flamencos clearly don't.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 24 2007 21:50:55

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Lets be negative (in reply to JasonM)

Hm.. Yes some things arent good in modern flameco. But I like the bass. It makes the composition rounder. Ok.. a good bass-player is important.

The other points I dont have an opinion. But Im happy that you told it! I thought I´m the only person here who dislike some aspects of flamenco. A bit different indetails, but ok .. everyone have an own opinion.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 24 2007 22:28:28

legrec

Posts: 248
Joined: Jan. 26 2006
From: France

RE: Lets be negative (in reply to Mark2)

I agree with the electric bass (& cocaine) thing

EXCEPT for Paco's bass player from Carlos Saura's Flamenco movie. Like with all "new" and "fusion" thing, the downpoint is that you have to be very very good to still fit in the picture with your new stuff. Most will be annoying and messing up with an already wonderful heritage.
But I feel this particular player is a real flamenco mate. He really add something to flamenco, which is not the case with most bass players around as far as I can hear. Perhaps it'll take time to have real flamenco electric bassists, and not jazz or whatever trained guy who makes a quick jump to flamenco during their career...

Second is the tendancy to over-hierarcherize the trinity of flamenco. For me dance, guitar, cante and percussion have the same importance (so it rejoins what Mark was saying).

My other negative point is the "malmsteen" syndrom : too many notes, and too fast. But I feel this "trend" is not as strong as a few years ago. Hopefully.

Last, it's the "big business" in flamenco guitar making. But I won't extend on this, I've already done a lot...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 24 2007 22:32:40

JasonM

Posts: 2055
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Lets be negative (in reply to legrec)

Interesting stuff guys! Yes. This is a can of worms, but we are all entitled to our own opinions right? Its what makes the world go around. I'm not too familiar with the "fake insecure syndrome" in Flamenco, but I believe it exist.
Mabey its related to the I can "out metal you" syndrome of heavy metal. At least those guys were having fun.

The flamenco trinity heirarchy. Thats a good one Legrec. And yeah, I agree with you about Paco's bassist in Flamenco.

Its hard to be inovative and break the cycle of what works and what brings the bread to the table.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 24 2007 23:03:12

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Lets be negative (in reply to JasonM)

I have a pet hate for castanets, if i see any near me il just throw them out the closest window out oh the highest building in front of the biggest bus, at peak hour traffic.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 24 2007 23:14:36

Guest

RE: Lets be negative (in reply to Florian)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Florian

I have a pet hate for castanets, if i see any near me il just throw them out the closest window out oh the highest building in front of the biggest bus, at peak hour traffic.

same here +rap music and rappers

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2007 0:00:13

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Lets be negative (in reply to JasonM)

So,,, Paco's magical Columbiana with Carlos B. sounds like Disco Elevator music??

I think a hearing aid may cure some of your "negativity"

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2007 0:29:30

Kev

Posts: 99
Joined: Aug. 31 2006
From: New Zealand

RE: Lets be negative (in reply to JasonM)

hhhhmmmmm mine is people who critisis other musicians.....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2007 1:39:23

carlos soto

Posts: 126
Joined: Oct. 22 2005

RE: Lets be negative (in reply to JasonM)

The fact that flamenco can only be pure if you are gypsy or at least that's what they say.

I think this may be true but only in the spanish gypsy tradition because the gypsys in my country don't know what a buleria is.
Still I wish I was born a gypsy in andalucia..or at least adopted

I hate bass too but if it's just supporting and not soloing can be nice, specially if it has frets. Not that I don't like fretless but with flamenco not so tasty.

Mostly I really dislike the fact that some spanish singer has a song named bulerias which is a terrible pop song and everytime a search google for bulerias I find that song's crappy lyrics, what a nightmare.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2007 2:49:47

JasonM

Posts: 2055
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Lets be negative (in reply to ToddK)

quote:

So,,, Paco's magical Columbiana with Carlos B. sounds like Disco Elevator music??

I think a hearing aid may cure some of your "negativity"

Yes Todd, I am making a generalization here. There are going to be exceptions. Its not like I toss a CD when I hear electric bass

If Paco and Bela Fleck did a duet, i'd certainly turn my hearing aid up. But in general, I don't think the banjo would go well with flamenco.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2007 3:27:12

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Lets be negative (in reply to JasonM)

i like good music

however i do not buy cd´s that contains this sort of tracklist.

Rumba
Tango
Tango
Buleria
Tango
etc
etc
etc

In my opinion thats a cd made to hit the Radio
I like older sounding Tangosd and Rumbas but not this Hit list thing

why cant they put a Solea or a siguiriya on??

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This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2007 5:28:20

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Lets be negative (in reply to JasonM)

and did i mention pure solo guitar bore me puts me to sleesspslzpzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzz

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This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2007 5:29:46

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Lets be negative (in reply to JasonM)

quote:

Do you have any pet peeves that involve flamenco?

Hmm, nope. I like everything about flamenco. cocain can be especially nice depending on my mood, or how loud the electric bass and foot stomping is, or how much the aficionados think my favorite stuff is "not flamenco". It's all good to me. Peace brothers.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2007 5:56:57

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Lets be negative (in reply to JasonM)

i like you ricardo

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This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2007 6:03:11

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Lets be negative (in reply to JasonM)

I love flamenco and I love it more every day.

In the start I disliked every thing. (farting basses, castanets, grumpy old singers, bitchy dancers. all)
Now I´m cured. I had an andalusian brainwash. It helped and is highly recommendable.

lelelelele por tangos lelelelele por tangos

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2007 7:37:39

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: Lets be negative (in reply to JasonM)

Yeah Jason, makes you feel good to be negative now and then.

I agree with all of your points, especially the bass part
There are a few things that I could add, but I could step on someone's toes here. So I will not mention them.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2007 7:42:10

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Lets be negative (in reply to koella)

ok i knew i shouldnt have taken part in this lol i knew theres always gonna be someone who will say something that is gonna make the rest of us look like wingers.

yeah we could have all focused on the positives but then again that is not answering the half joke half serious question is beeing asked in this tread, the title is " Lets be negative"

There is something wrong with someone who dosent dislike anything ! lol so stop beeing such a politicaly correct goody tussues and answer the man

Ricardo i know u dislike it when a local guitarist is too pretious or paranoid to jam

and Anders I kno for a fact u wouldnt like, Rap in flamenco, Yoddeling, techno siren or people who dislike caravans.

so PLEASE ! dont pi*s on my leg and tell me its raining, your unwillingnes to be negative and criticise is very unsportsmen like.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2007 8:06:55

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Lets be negative (in reply to JasonM)

quote:

If Paco and Bela Fleck did a duet, i'd certainly turn my hearing aid up. But in general, I don't think the banjo would go well with flamenco.

Now if the darn bass was not so loud, you might like this Jason:

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2007 8:22:55

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Lets be negative (in reply to JasonM)

Flamenco and pop.

Just check this out where Tomatito plays on a western-guitar for a spanish popsinger.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2007 9:42:35

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Lets be negative (in reply to JasonM)

quote:

Do you have any pet peeves that involve flamenco? Things that agrravate the hell out of you but may not bother others? Or, mabey you have some particular dislikes or preferences involving the music or form.

Sabicas Rock Encounter with Joe Beck!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2007 10:06:25

Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: Lets be negative (in reply to Doitsujin) 1 votes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doitsujin
But I like the bass. It makes the composition rounder. Ok.. a good bass-player is important.

I agree, there is a great bass player Joan Masana on Emilio Maya's 'Temple' although it also depends on context, palo etc.

My pet hate is flute, cant stand it, that and techno flamenco. We get sent a lot of this since a track of Emilio's was butchered and put on one of those flamenco chill out albums. I also hate it at my favourite flamenco hang out in Granada when they put on Morente's Omega, its just too depressing and changes the mood of the place immediately.

Kate

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2007 18:18:38

mrMagenta

Posts: 942
Joined: Oct. 25 2006
From: Sweden

RE: Lets be negative (in reply to JasonM)

the garrotin hats! they make my hairs stand on end. i have no clue why.. oh and side-blown flutes. however i'd like to see if kaval or duduk-flutes would mesh better.

and the flamenco chair! the one that's everywhere, in all saura flicks etc. i want a pair of them chairs, but they are nowhere to be found in this here country. bleh

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2007 20:51:46

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Lets be negative (in reply to JasonM)

i tryed to get these chairs as well but as you said

they are nowhere in this country to be found.

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2007 20:55:13

JasonM

Posts: 2055
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Lets be negative (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Now if the darn bass was not so loud, you might like this Jason:

Ok... that bass didn't have frets, I'd eat my own words... BUT that was not an electric bass

Or at least it sounded like a stand up bass. I like stand up acoustic bass. I think I should have said that I don't like the electric fretless bass in my first post. It is that type of sound that drives me crazy. As far as an electric fretted bass goes, it depends. I wouldn't be against using one, but I have my own preferences as to how I would want to use it musically. Mainly a clean, supportive, drone sound mabey. I don't know.

Kate, I don't like the use of the flute either. I hardly ever hear it being used anyway. On a postive note, I DO like the violin in flamenco and that is also something that I rarely hear. My personal taste.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2007 21:17:36

Thomas Whiteley

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Lets be negative (in reply to Kate)

Have you ever heard that Ramon Montoya recording where he was accompanied by a Saxophone? The sax did a good job of emulating the cante and I enjoyed it. I have recently heard flamenco incorporating a sax and it was not good.

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http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2007 23:12:22

Gummy

Posts: 495
Joined: Nov. 27 2005
From: North Carolina, USA

RE: Lets be negative (in reply to JasonM)

Mostly I hate the attitude about one having to be Spanish or raised in Spain to play, appreciate, enjoy or comment about Flamenco. I hate how some people can sit back and blast someone elses music because it doesn't fit into their own definition of what Flamenco should be.(I am not talking of basic compas etc, I mean beyond that)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2007 23:21:25

jrabbani

Posts: 192
Joined: Jun. 28 2006
From: Los Angeles

RE: Lets be negative (in reply to duende)

quote:

i tryed to get these chairs as well but as you said

you mean these chairs?
http://www.occasionalhell.com/infdevice/detail.php?recordID=Spanish%20Chair

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 7 2007 23:27:07

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Lets be negative (in reply to JasonM)

OK - but let's try to be positive.
Flamenco is a living art form and still developing.
A dead art form looks back to some kind of golden age and tries to preserve it. Anyone who tries anything different is frowned on. Eventually it is an art form appreciated by old folk - or it dies out.
A living art form allows experiment. Some of the experimemnts are c**p. These die out eventually. Other experiments take the art form forward and keep it alive. There is something for everyone to appreciate - old - young - traditionalists - modernists. Don't knock it!
Rob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2007 10:26:45