Foro Flamenco
Posts Since Last Visit | Advanced Search | Home | Register | Login

Today's Posts | Inbox | Profile | Our Rules | Contact Admin | Log Out



Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods and David Serva who went ahead of us too soon.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.





Fandango de Huelva and foot tapping   You are logged in as Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: [1]
Login
Message<< Newer Topic  Older Topic >>
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

Fandango de Huelva and foot tapping 

Ok

I´ve been told to tap my feet when I play. So please tell me how and where to do that when playing Fandangos de Huelva. An also where to enter falsetas. I´m planning to move to the Huelva province soon, so I need to figure this out before.... If not. They are going to laugh at me

I can foolow the compás quite easily using Rons flamenco master. Basic compás (121234 x2) I do with the golpe on 12. I then enter falseta on 10.....

Is that right?????

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2007 13:01:55
 
duende

Posts: 3051
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Fandango de Huelva and foot tapping (in reply to Anders Eliasson

when i tap my foot i do it on 12,3,6,9
12* * 3 * * 6 * * etc or

1* * 4 * *1 * * 4 * * or * * 3 * * 6 * * 3 * *6 etc

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2007 15:03:53
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Fandango de Huelva and foot tapping (in reply to Anders Eliasson

and where do you enter falsetas......?

I find it difficult or weird to go 3 tapping over the basic compás which is 1 x 3 x x x

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2007 16:18:28
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Fandango de Huelva and foot tapping (in reply to Anders Eliasson

Hi Anders,
Same advice as I gave to Don about the "Flamenco" DVD.
(There are two guitarists...the first one makes it really clear).

quote:

and where do you enter falsetas......?


Some may start on the "on" the beat and some may not ..

Paco de Lucia's FdH from the "Live at the Teatro Real" album is rock steady, and though advanced technically is great just to listen to and get a feel for how the the falsetas fit the compás.

There have been several posts on FdH on the Forum over the past months, if you want to try to find them.

I agree with Henrik, it's golpe,2,3,golpe,5,6,golpe,8,9,golpe,11,12.
(or any other number system you want to use)

It feels weird because the golpe is on the off-beat, (like 1 and your Western-music educated brain wants you to golpe on the 3).

cheers

Ron

_____________________________

A good guitar might be a good guitar
But it takes a woman to break your heart
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2007 16:48:21
 
Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Fandango de Huelva and foot tapping (in reply to Anders Eliasson

Hi Anders,

Yes! it's 3's all the way, --3--6--9--12--3 etc.
Difficult thing is that the chord changes go 1 beat before the golpe so, 'E to Am' the Am is played on beat 2 with the compas golpe on 3 being one beat behind. This gives it that unusual characteristic off beat pulse.
If that makes sense

At least, that's how I understand it if you're thinking in numbers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2007 16:52:44
 
duende121

Posts: 86
Joined: Aug. 24 2005
 

RE: Fandango de Huelva and foot tapping (in reply to Anders Eliasson

Hi
The most practical way of taping is thinking in 3/4. Now for the rythm you can tap it like a sevillanas taping on 1 -4 -5 then 7 -10 -11... but i prefer 1-4-7-10
For the falsetas and where to enter it ,that depends of your falsetas and the way you count. If you start the rythm on 1 and the final séquence G F E on 789, some falsetas are begining on 1, others on 11..But you will find a lot of medio compas in fandangos..So, once more, the best is to forget to think in 12 and just in 3, taping with the foot on 1.
I recomand you the reading of the book of Worms and Herrero (Volume 3 or 4) on the fandango. you will find there a good analysis

_____________________________

¡Vamos!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2007 17:18:00
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13515
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Fandango de Huelva and foot tapping (in reply to Anders Eliasson

"I find it difficult or weird to go 3 tapping over the basic compás which is 1 x 3 x x x "
You neglected the important count 5 rhythmic close.

Yet again maybe some confusion without corresponding chords to know HOW one would count it. And starting a falseta is no different than anything else in Flamenco, once you understand the compas as a loop, the only thing you need is the proper "ending", you can start manyways. And once again the half compas comes into play. AND once again, compound meter where you have 3/4 against 6/8, and vice versus, PLUS the subdivision synchopations. Really it is not so hard if you can already play bulerias/solea etc.

So, I like to think of head and tail again. E7 is on the down beat, then you have Am, G on the down beat, although you can sometimes "feel" that and leave it blank or golpe, then F-E. So how to count it?

If you superimpose this on the "count" of Solea, I would Put the first E chord on the 12, so you change to Am on count 2. The accented Am then is count 4. Then G chord on 6, F is 7, and E is 8. Golpe on 9, then rasgueado accent on 10. The FOOT or basic heavy feel is 12,3,6,9 as mentioned earlier. Just like in bulerias or jaleos you can have that feel and play off the foot at times, you just have to get used to this feeling. Bulerias is often the reverse, where the music might accent in 3's, but your foot would be on 2,4,6,8,10,12. Fandandos is opposite this feel, you often emphasize 12,2,4,6,8, etc, with the music, but your internal beat feeling has to be 12,3,6,9. I would say it can "switch around" more in bulerias than fandangos. Again you will find half compases, because the 4 and 10 can both be the "closing" point. Especially with the first line of a sung copla you will find it.

Falsetas can start on 10 like a pickup, or 4, since there is symmetry, or 12, the downbeat, it depends. The copla relative major type falsetas usually start on or after 12, the E phrygian variations between coplas more often start with a pickup. But I don't think of that as a rule, just a generalization. The most important thing is to internalize the 12,3,6,9 feeling, and learn how the accents of the music are often "against" that.

Cool thing is once you get real comfortable with fangangos, a lot of those phrases work great in the other 12 palos. PDL often played those fandango type pickups in his bulerias or jaleos. He did a fandango alzapua in his solea por buleria on "Almoraima". Etc, etc.

Ricardo
PS, I don't like the 12 count for fandango, and don't use it with dancers, but just here to illustrate how the feeling of fandango and solea could be super imposed. I have seen transcriptions of fandangos written many ways. To me is is easiest to understand as 3/4 where the down beat is "one" of course, foot always on one, or in 6/4 the foot would be one and four. 6/4 does not give that info normally, so I prefer 6/8, but very slow bpm. (eigth note= 150+or-)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2007 17:35:08
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Fandango de Huelva and foot tapping (in reply to Anders Eliasson

ouhhh... My brain is all twisted.... Maybe I should just stay here in Granada and play Granainas without compás.....

thanks a lot all of you. I will need to reread this a time or two and count 3.....starting on what I will call one.... A teacher once told me that most falsetas (he was counting 3) started on 2... Thats like the pickup falsetas. I have a wonderfull Sabicas falseta that starts on what Ricardo calls 4... Thats understandable, but remember to do a half compás before, or just smile and say "medio compas tio" to the ones listening to you or doing palmas.

Yeah, I listen a lot to that PDL Fandango from Live in Madrid... wouw...

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2007 18:26:36
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Fandango de Huelva and foot tapping (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

ouhhh... My brain is all twisted


LOL! Anders,
Yeah it sort of feels like that, but it makes a lot more sense once you actually start doing it.

quote:

"I find it difficult or weird to go 3 tapping over the basic compás which is 1 x 3 x x x "


This is where your problem is Anders.
You have already worked out a model for FdH which seems to make sense and is reinforced everytime you listen to records or practise.

Wipe the slate clean and start again is my advice.

The correct model is:-

1xx4xx7xx10xx

(Or gxxgxxgxxgxx where g= golpe)

Obviously you can't play golpe once every three beats in every falseta situation, but as long as you keep your foot there, then you will know where you are)

I'd say forget counting in sixes or twelves...at least for the moment.

Just think "GOLPE, TWO, THREE, GOLPE, TWO, THREE" .... ad infinitum

Hum that FdH cadence while you are strumming on muted strings and really HAMMER that golpe to begin with to reinforce it in your head.

Oh yeah...and DO watch that Saura "Flamenco" FdH DVD if you can.

It's more awkward than difficult..really!


cheers

Ron

_____________________________

A good guitar might be a good guitar
But it takes a woman to break your heart
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2007 20:24:37
 
duende

Posts: 3051
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Fandango de Huelva and foot tapping (in reply to Anders Eliasson

yes i think the important feel would be that foot on 12,3,6 or 1.4.1.4.1.4.1.4 what ever countingsystem you use.

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2007 20:54:02
 
el ted

 

Posts: 466
Joined: Nov. 13 2003
 

RE: Fandango de Huelva and foot tapping (in reply to Anders Eliasson

Buy Juan Martin's book Anders, there is a splendid Fandangos de Huelava in it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 9 2007 9:57:16
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13515
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Fandango de Huelva and foot tapping (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

Thats understandable, but remember to do a half compás before, or just smile and say "medio compas tio" to the ones listening to you or doing palmas.


No man, that is the point of "medio compas". You dont' need to do anything before or after, just go. Medio compases don't affect palmas at all. It is really simple. Don't think about it, just feel the beat in 3 always.

Ricardo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 9 2007 11:12:09
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Fandango de Huelva and foot tapping (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

Hum that FdH cadence while you are strumming on muted strings and really HAMMER that golpe to begin with to reinforce it in your head.


Ok... This I understand, so here I am with a sponge on the guitar doing golpe baf baf and humming fandango cadence. (Maybe I should put a sponge in my mouth as well. Doggie is looking at me with a worried look in his eyes )

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 9 2007 12:11:19
 
duende

Posts: 3051
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Fandango de Huelva and foot tapping (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

Maybe I should put a sponge in my mouth as well.




_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 9 2007 14:17:30
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Fandango de Huelva and foot tapping (in reply to Anders Eliasson

Ok thanks a lot . I´m progressing. I can now tap and play compás or coplas at the same time. Rons right its more weird than difficult. Nice compás though. Kinda wobly
I will upload some when I´ve had the time to practice a bit more

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 11 2007 17:24:13
 
Francisco

Posts: 879
Joined: Jun. 13 2005
From: SW USA

RE: Fandango de Huelva and foot tapping (in reply to Anders Eliasson

Tag...sorry to necropost, just wanted to tag this one.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 9 2007 5:54:39
 
NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
 

RE: Fandango de Huelva and foot tapping (in reply to Anders Eliasson)1 votes

Hi Anders,

In old recordings, I hear a repeating six-beat pattern accented on 3 and 5, very similar to sevillanas: one, two, THREE, four, FIVE, six. However, most contemporary artists seem to be tapping a steady ternary pattern on 1 and 4, similar to cante abandolao: ONE, two, three, FOUR, five six. I suspect that part of the great flavor of "Huelva" is brought on by this tricky polyrhythm, but I find it hard to swing with the ternary tapping.

I agree that foot-tapping is good in general. Some people might argue that, like nail-tapping, it's best to be very careful and deliberate about it. But in fandangos de Huelva, it adds a lot of flavor--you can practically stomp--and it seems to anchor the crazy polyrhythm, as well.

According to this six-beat rhythm, most falsetas start on either 1 or 5, so it's important to be aware of how this all fits into the resolution to the tonic (E or A) on the third beat: There's usually one beat of silence on 4, and this affects the
rhythmic structure before and after the falseta.

I'd suggest that your move to Huelva will be the ideal opportunity to learn how to do all this once you're there!

Best wishes,
Norman

Flamenco Guitar Transcriptions
http://www.ctv.es/guitar/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 9 2007 9:29:18
 
Stu

Posts: 2076
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Fandango de Huelva and foot tapping (in reply to Francisco

say samwise, what do you mean? Necropost??? Something to do with dragg.ing up old posts?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 9 2007 9:37:39
 
Francisco

Posts: 879
Joined: Jun. 13 2005
From: SW USA

RE: Fandango de Huelva and foot tapping (in reply to Stu

Yea, some people get put out with it [necroposting]. I've been focusing on FDH lately, and found this post really helpful. Then I had trouble relocating it one day, hence the tag. I can just search my recent posts.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 9 2007 18:40:22
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13515
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Fandango de Huelva and foot tapping (in reply to Francisco

Necroposting is "bad" because it is about digging up an old thread that might have had a controversial subject or heated arguement, and stirs up forgotten differences etc.

But I call simply revisiting an interesting or usefull topic, "bumping", so it gets put at the top of the thread listings (queue).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 10 2007 1:34:12
Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Anders Eliasson

[Deleted by Admins]

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 10 2007 1:43:34
 
Francisco

Posts: 879
Joined: Jun. 13 2005
From: SW USA

RE: Fandango de Huelva and foot tapping (in reply to Ricardo

I guess it depends on how you look at it. I didn't really make a distinction based on the content, but rather on the time since the last post of the thread. Your response got me to thinking tho, Ricardo, so I looked it up on wikipedia. Here's what they say:

quote:

Bumping old or inactive ("dead") threads is occasionally called "necroposting" or "thread necromancy", and the bumping posts referred to as "frankenposts". "Dead" threads that are reawakened are often called "thread necros". People who resurrect old threads are often called "threadomancers". On some boards, bumping a new thread with no replies in order to elicit a response is tolerated, but resurrecting an old thread that has run its course and has been inactive for a period of time (usually anywhere from a few days to a month) is prohibited. The acceptable practice is usually to start a new thread and link to the old thread so that readers can become familiar with the background information.


Maybe I should have started a new thread, and linked the old one? Doesn't matter. Back to fandangos de huelva!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 10 2007 2:29:57
 
RobF

 

Posts: 1318
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

[Deleted] 

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jun. 11 2022 2:01:51
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 10 2022 21:57:49
 
RobF

Posts: 1318
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Fandango de Huelva and foot tapping (in reply to Francisco

I suppose this bump was an unintentional example of why necroposting is frowned upon in so many forums. It wasn’t intended as a joke, I thought the last points of the thread might be helpful in a wry manner, as there sure has been a lot of necroposting going on around here lately.

I hadn’t realized Ron had participated in the thread and even if he hadn’t it still comes across as a pretty tasteless and silly way to make a point. I can’t say I feel very good about it now. I wish I could take this one back…
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2022 4:04:37
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13515
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Fandango de Huelva and foot tapping (in reply to RobF

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobF

I suppose this bump was an unintentional example of why necroposting is frowned upon in so many forums. It wasn’t intended as a joke, I thought the last points of the thread might be helpful in a wry manner, as there sure has been a lot of necroposting going on around here lately.

I hadn’t realized Ron had participated in the thread and even if he hadn’t it still comes across as a pretty tasteless and silly way to make a point. I can’t say I feel very good about it now. I wish I could take this one back…


Well, when new people come on that is typical. What is annoying is when a new person keeps doing it rather than READING the entire thing and posts a response to an early question, ignoring all the history presented. Otherwise I don’t see a problem as often new information has come to light that might be relevant to past discussions. Good examples were the Black hole off topic thing, and the “can white man play blues” topics.

As something very relevant here, the video I made last year about fandango naturales would have clarified many of the questions about phrasing earlier.



_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2022 16:15:09
 
RobF

Posts: 1318
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Fandango de Huelva and foot tapping (in reply to Ricardo

I think there’s a big difference between the maintenance of long-running discussions, such as found in your examples, and that of the resurrection of ancient threads to post questions to long gone members along the lines of how many guitars did Paco have after his death, for example.

In the case of this thread, my post was ill considered, and I would also argue that your addition would be more relevant and appropriate if covered by either by a link or a new thread.

Necroposts can have a lot of negative side effects. There’s a reason most forums either discourage or forbid them.

One of the beautiful things about this Foro is that it is largely self-moderated. People speak freely, some may say a little too freely, but that’s part of the charm of it, in many ways. There’s a wealth of knowledge in these pages, spiced with humour and examples of human frailty. Necroposts play with something fragile, in a sense they break an implied social contract, and can have the unintended effect of throttling open discussion. We shouldn’t be throwing past discussions in people’s faces, or ultimately we may find we’re talking to an empty room.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2022 17:06:39
Page:   [1]
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: [1]
Jump to:

New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET

0.078125 secs.