RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley say thay are a flamenco guitarist

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>General >>

Page: << < 1 2 [3] 4 5 > >>

[Poll]

NEW POLL-When can someone truley say thay are a flamenco guitarist

after playing for baile 10 years and cante ten years

8% (3)

Once they have mastered compas

13% (5)

once they have mastered all flamenco techniques and compas

16% (6)

once they play 'la cucaracha' and yell ole at the end

13% (5)

when they play with true aire

22% (8)

when they can play 'la feria' just like juan martin

5% (2)

once theyve ripped off a car with some gypsies

5% (2)

once they wear the frilly shirts and sing 'po dom pom pom'

2% (1)

once they become a 'guiri in denial'

0% (0)

after completing a 16 hour shift in the captain beefcakes factory

11% (4)

Total Votes : 36

(last vote on : Dec. 23 2015 16:38:33)

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Doitsujin)

quote:

a BAD singer, is more "flamenco" just because he sings, than a descent flamenco guitar soloist or dancer?

That depends what you mean by "bad", if he sings badly then no, but if he sings very well but has a limited repertoir, then yes.

But i dont really see how anyone could become a good dancer without knowing any cante, its impossible.

And Grisha is an example of a guitarist who has everything down as a soloist, and he does that extremely, extremely well, but it terms of soloists who doesnt know any singing or dancing he is an exception that confirms the rule.

And there are a lot of people in spain who refuse to call him flamenco before he does start accompanying song.

And im quite sure he would be able to without any problem, and that would shut a lot of people up about that.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 19:34:40

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

quote:

That depends what you mean by "bad"

Fuera compas for starters.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 19:38:16

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

quote:

Fuera compas for starters.

There are singers who dont sing palos with compás and focus on levante palos and other fandango forms. And they wouldnt sing out of compas for the reason that they would avoid doing it.

I have had guitar student who pick up the compas fast because they are rhytmically inclined, but that doesnt make them more flamenco.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 19:42:08

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Doitsujin)

[Deleted by Admins]

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 19:42:46

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

quote:

It's like a non-mexican eating a taco and learning some useful phrases in Spanish and calling himself a Mexican.

Yeah, thats what im getting at, but even if you dont come from that culture its quite possible to learn to interact with it on more or less the same terms but that doesnt happen just by calling yourself "flamenco", it takes more effort than that.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 19:46:36

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to sonikete)

[Deleted by Admins]

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 19:49:27

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Guest)

Sorry you guys posted while I was adding this:

As far as Grisha goes, when he plays bulerias, it is bulerias. It is very flamenco the way he plays. It would be dangerous to assume he knows NOTHING of cante or baile, judging by his playing. People who wonder about it, secretly hope deep down he knows nothing about cante. Same with Todd and his pick. That is because accompanying is easy as **** compared to what they do. But we can draw our lines where we want. I am not personally bothered by folks who might call Grisha a "classical guitarist who plays flamenco solos", but classical guitarists don't play bulerias. Perhaps some guy in spain only knows one falseta and accompanies better than Grisha. But that does not earn him the right to strip "flamenco credentials" from anyone else. Other wise the only flamenco guitarist is Moraito, the rest are "wannabes".

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 19:54:33

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

The way i see it is that in order to learn, first you got to know how they define the aspects their own culture and accept their definitions and standards, instead of inventing your own, and even if you cant become a "flamenco" you can do your best to get as close as possible.

And its quite possible to go very far.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 19:56:43

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

quote:

There are singers who dont sing palos with compás and focus on levante palos and other fandango forms. And they wouldnt sing out of compas for the reason that they would avoid doing it.

Ok, fine. That is ok for you. But for me, if you can't sing Solea, Bulerias, Siguiriyas, you are not a flamenco singer, not a "cantaor". There are many guys who sing the hell out of fandangos, but are not necessarily flamenco singers.

But that is where my line is drawn as an aficionado.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 20:00:13

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

quote:

Perhaps some guy in spain only knows one falseta and accompanies better than Grisha. But that does not earn him the right to strip "flamenco credentials" from anyone else.

I dont think anyone criticizes the flamenconess of grishas playing, he plays the socks of most people ive heard, but in their world singing is the core and center everything is turning around and i cant say im in a position to redefine that, even if other people might.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 20:02:27

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to sonikete)

[Deleted by Admins]

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 20:04:20

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

quote:

It reminds me of gentrification on a musical level.
"Hey screw their culture....let's take what we can and run with it."

Yes, thats what i mean.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 20:07:49

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

so what u guys are saying that a soloist who has no interest in accompaning cante or dance cannot call himself a flamenco guitarist no matter how brilliant he is ??

no way !no how !

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 20:08:13

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

All i can say is that i dont have the stomach to redefine their labels because i have just adopted their culture, i havent invented it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 20:12:14

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to sonikete)

[Deleted by Admins]

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 20:12:41

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Florian)

quote:

It reminds me of gentrification on a musical level.
"Hey screw their culture....let's take what we can and run with it."

dont forghet flamenco guitar technique and just flamenco in general without using the words quite that harsh was born that way.

i mean flamenco takes from outsiders as much as outsiders take from it, and it works well , have u heard Pitingos last cd ?? like the tangos ?

have u read the interview where Jeronimo tells where he gets his musical inspiration from ?

footwork - hollywood
cajon - latin america
most of the guitar technique - classical guitar

do i go on ?

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 20:13:22

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

Yes, and ive read interviews with him where he points out the similarities between black music and flamenco. But it´s fusion and that has been done a lot of times before. He can sing traditional things without any problem too and i doubt he would do a fusion seguiriya for example.

Its like when a jazzguitarist plays a flamenco tune.

quote:

footwork - hollywood

That one you have to give me some proof if im going to buy

And we were talking about what defines a flamenco guitarist. The choice is between the spanish definition that is very clear and another vague definition that seems to include ottmar liebert.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 20:27:40

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to sonikete)

[Deleted by Admins]

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 20:31:19

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

fusion, experiment whatever u wanna call it its a tangos a flamenco form and on a flamenco cd, and done by a flamenco singer.

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 20:32:21

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Florian)

quote:

quote:

footwork - hollywood

That one you have to give me some proof if im going to buy

I tought that was a well known fact.

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 20:33:51

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Florian)

quote:

Which brings me back to the perrenial question....."What would Paco or Tomatito or Carmen Amaya(if alive) or Yerbabuena or Agujetas call you?"

a very handsome man

who loves to think for himself

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 20:35:10

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to sonikete)

[Deleted by Admins]

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 20:35:20

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

quote:

fusion, experiment whatever u wanna call it its a tangos a flamenco form and on a flamenco cd, and done by a flamenco singer.

Yeah its a fusion tangos, the only difference here is that its the voice doing the fusion instead of the guitar.

quote:

I tought that was a well known fact.

Well, i never heard anyone else say that before.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 20:36:43

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Guest)

[Deleted by Admins]

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 20:37:03

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to sonikete)

[Deleted by Admins]

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 20:38:44

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Guest)

Mario Maya did a thing with Kathak, indian dance, where they use their feet in a similar way to flamenco.

And the gitanos came from india according to some historians so they believe there is a connection.

http://www.benares-ensemble.de/benares-kathak-flamenco-engl.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 20:43:23

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

who only want one reahearsal and don't want to set the dance...that is another thing.
It is the reason why there are many great guitarists(flamenco) but only a fraction are considered good for baile.

Dancers like that are easy, even for guitarists who only accomp. cante. The reason not many for dance is because it is a headache. The guitarist must memorize, not just play how he feels. Cante is easier to accompany by itself, in terms of brain work, although, a student can learn through the "squarness" of baile the structure of some cante. There are very few solistas that are pro. Of course in foreign countries, where there is less cante and baile, it is different.

And about the lables that a culture will put on another, it is not fair to "speak for" a culture you are not part of. I showed a video of Todd playing with a pick to two gypsy friends, Pedro Cortes and Jesus Montoya. They thought his playing was very flamenco. Pedro was especially impressed, but then again he is a modern style guitarist. Jesus is a singer, but he would not say the guy was NOT playing flamenco. But sure, you will find people who might say that. Hell they say it about Paco de Lucia. So it is not about "let me say what I want about it despite the collective culture's view", it is really about the aficionado within, and where personal tastes and lines are drawn.

quote:

"What would Paco or Tomatito or Carmen Amaya(if alive) or Yerbabuena or Agujetas call you?"

Depending, they each have their own view and make their own lines. Agujetas thinks of HIMSELF as the only thing truely "flamenco" left alive. Tomatito surely sees things differently.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 20:44:14

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

Yeah, but i believe they draw the line between playing flamenco music and being a flamenco guitarist which are not the same.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 20:47:29

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

quote:

playing flamenco music and being a flamenco guitarist which are not the same.

What you really mean is to make a distinction of what "flamenco music" is. My point is that those gypsy guys do not share you similar view that flamenco music is ONLY cante.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 20:52:06

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to sonikete)