RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley say thay are a flamenco guitarist

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[Poll]

NEW POLL-When can someone truley say thay are a flamenco guitarist

after playing for baile 10 years and cante ten years

8% (3)

Once they have mastered compas

13% (5)

once they have mastered all flamenco techniques and compas

16% (6)

once they play 'la cucaracha' and yell ole at the end

13% (5)

when they play with true aire

22% (8)

when they can play 'la feria' just like juan martin

5% (2)

once theyve ripped off a car with some gypsies

5% (2)

once they wear the frilly shirts and sing 'po dom pom pom'

2% (1)

once they become a 'guiri in denial'

0% (0)

after completing a 16 hour shift in the captain beefcakes factory

11% (4)

Total Votes : 36

(last vote on : Dec. 23 2015 16:38:33)

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sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Florian)

Well i already answered that, good or bad are subjective, flamenco is not. Even if some people here seems to disagree with me on that.

I say there are criteria that separates ottmar from juan and if they dont think so, ok, then ottmar is flamenco too.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 16:02:20

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Florian)

Mr magneta u right

I am not looking to step over Juan but using him as an example to make a litlle point, u know just discussing.

this is not for everybody but...
truth is , if i haD only 20 bucs and had to chose between a Juan album that Otmars i would chose otmars, atlist i can close my eyes and go places even if no flamenco, with Juans i would remain right there in front of the pc wondering HOW ??.

Sonikete, i am not talking about Ottmar beeing flamenco or anywhere near, id have to be a moron to think that.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 16:04:51

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

Sure but we are not talking about opinions, at least im talking about if there is any criteria that separates juan from ottmar when it comes to being flamenco or not. Or if anyone just can play anything they like and call that flamenco.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 16:06:51

Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 16:13:45

mrMagenta

Posts: 942
Joined: Oct. 25 2006
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

Juan can probably accompany cante, for instance. Imagine singing with Ottmar..
Part of the criteria: Ottmar doesn't even play the flamenco styles (not seriously).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 16:15:16

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

quote:

Juan can probably accompany cante, for instance. Imagine singing with Ottmar..
Part of the criteria: Ottmar doesn't even play the flamenco styles (not seriously).

Yes, thats what i mean, there are objective criteria that separates them, and defines it.
Then if someone think its good or bad music thats another issue and has nothing to do with the criteria that separates one thing from another.

quote:

They destroyed the very thing they loved about it, the culture. Now it is a commercialized reflection of its former self.
Ottmar represents the rape of this culture(my culture) to me. Flamenco is not my culture but remember I wrote he REPRESENTS this. He is trying to play "latin" music. It is very offensive to some "latinos."

Yes, thats what get me going as well even if im not even latino. I have spent my life listening to it, playing it, studying it and struggling with, so i think i have the right to say something about it

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 16:18:44

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Guest)

romerito

if it means that much to you ok

il back off, i dont care either way, he dosent really affect my world in any way.

did u say u meet him and hes arrogant ?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 16:19:14

Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 16:23:19

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Guest)

cmon, dont be stingy , give me details what happened ?

what did u say , and what did he say ?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 16:24:29

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

quote:

Well i already answered that, good or bad are subjective, flamenco is not. Even if some people here seems to disagree with me on that.

I did say there were "defining traits" that distinguished what "Flamenco" was, and that THE REST was subjective.

Ottmar? Who cares. As long as he doesn't claim to be real Flamenco, then it doesn't matter. If people wanna listen to Ottmar's work then so be it. maybe small things please small minds, if you wanna think like that. But I'm not one of these "Flamenco-Nazis" that goes around bashing anything thats not to their particular tastes. Gentrification? I'm sure Ottmar himself is not DIRECTLY responsible for it, even if he has come to REPRESENT it in anyone's mind.

Jb

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¡Si esto no está en compas, esto no es el Flamenco!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 16:25:36

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

quote:

I did say there were "defining traits" that distinguished what "Flamenco" was, and that THE REST was subjective.

Yes, thats what im saying too

quote:

I'm sure Ottmar himself is not DIRECTLY responsible for it, even if he has come to REPRESENT it in anyone's mind.

As i said before i think it was a marketing gimmick to start a new subgenre, and it succeded, now you have a ton of ottmar ripoffs that cashes in on that false marketing scheme and it has nothing to do with if i like their music or not.

Any real musican tries to be honest and play from their heart as has been said here before, but it doesnt matter how much they put their heart into something if its a lie to begin with.

Grisha is doing as much good for the reputation of guiri flamencos (and im happy that he plays like he does and Id be even happier if he accompanied.

) as Ottmar is doing destroying it, so yeah its sensitive for me .

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 16:26:23

Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 16:44:50

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

I bet the marketing executives that came up with the noveau flamenco scheme was thinking exactly like that.

"Flamenco? - who cares"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 16:51:06

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

He doesn't claim to be flamenco but he allows the recording industry to market him as flamenco and he had a hand in the initial NOUVEAU naming of his genre. He can wash his hands all he wants but the public has already been misled, the damage is done.

Well, I think "Nouveau Flamenco" is something quite different to Flamenco puro. But I can see that the two sharing one of the words (and particularly such a meaningful word) might lead to un-necessary confusion.

As for the gentrification... it happens all over the place, all over the world, and perhaps its sometimes inevitable. But I don't think ottmar should be made a "scapegoat" for it, even if he is wealthy.

Jb

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¡Si esto no está en compas, esto no es el Flamenco!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 16:52:28

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to JBASHORUN)

quote:

Well, I think "Nouveau Flamenco" is something quite different to Flamenco puro.

Yes, "Nouveau Flamenco" isnt even Flamenco, its false marketing.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 16:56:35

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

quote:

I bet the marketing executives that came up with the noveau flamenco scheme was thinking exactly like that.

"Flamenco? - who cares"

IMO it was probably an attempt to "cash in" on an authentic and recognized culture (Flamenco), whilst at the same time differentiating between between the culture and the work in question by adding the word "Nouveau". So in other words, they are saying: "ah, its a bit like Flamenco, but not really..."

And maybe you're right... why would an Ottmar Liebert fan have any more respect for Paco De Lucia than a PDL fan would have for Ottmar?

Jb

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¡Si esto no está en compas, esto no es el Flamenco!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 16:57:52

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Dec. 22 2006 10:43:35

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 16:59:47

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 17:02:46

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

lol , i think we getting out of hand with this Otmar thing.

If someone told me i could have his Million dollar home for Playing his crap and Lying about my Music Genre I would have but one thing to say !!!!!!!

where do i sign ?

there ! take that

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 17:04:18

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

I always knew you was a bit of a whore

In music it sometimes hard not be one, if you want to survive doing it, but there gotta be a limit.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 17:06:40

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

I wanted to be Mili Vanilly but they didnt like my speaking voice, said i could pull off the Jamaican/German/English accent

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 17:08:56

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

Id do some old ladies any day over playing ottmar songs myself.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 17:09:55

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

quote:

Id do some old ladies any day over playing ottmar songs myself.

U would be Barcelona Nighting your ass off if you saw my garndma

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 17:12:31

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

Ive had one drunk old lady pinching my behind at one occasion so i might be able to avoid your grandma

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 17:13:38

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

Ok pervert

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 17:14:43

Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 17:16:08

Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 17:17:45

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

To be serious its about greed all over the place nowadays and thats one of the things that drew me to flamenco, there are aspects of that culture that is the complete opposite of that kind of rape and plunder mentality.

quote:

A better challenge-Barcelona nights or celibacy??

Lethal injection or gas chamber, thats another..

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 17:20:25

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

OK, Lets think of a NEW name for "Nouveau Flamenco"... one that DOESN'T have false pretenses.

Anyone?

Jb

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¡Si esto no está en compas, esto no es el Flamenco!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 17:24:15