questions on lowering action at bridge

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >>

Page: [1]

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

mrMagenta

Posts: 942
Joined: Oct. 25 2006
From: Sweden

questions on lowering action at bridge

Hello,
I've been lurking a bit in here and I'm really impressed by the guitars, workmanship, knowledge and general attitude on this forum.

Anyhow, I've made a bone saddle for the bridge of my guitar, which is a flamenco guitar in the lower price-end (Quiles). I'm concerned about the action. While practising the martillo golpe, the low E keeps (uncomfortably) hitting the top end of my fingernail (might be bad technique for the major part though). I measured the action. It was 13mm at the rosetto (bridge side of the soundhole). I've lowered it to 11mm, but to lower it further would cause strings to touch the wood of the bridge (behind the saddle). What effect would this have? Is it crucial that the strings run freely from the saddle bone to the insertion holes? I could sand the bone down at least another 3mm if it weren't for the strings coming in contact with the wood behind the slot.

Another question: will lowering the action from 13 to 9 or 8mm change the intonation noticably? in that case, would it be easy to compensate in some way?

Short presentation:
I'm quite new to playing flamenco guitar. I'm taking lessons and working on getting a feel for the common palos and techniques. My aim is to get into the art of playing for dance and cante, as I really love the way flamenco works with those three elements. I live in Stockholm, Sweden. My real name is Zoran Dokic (not to be confused with Zoran Dukic :-))

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 9 2006 4:06:36

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: questions on lowering action at ... (in reply to mrMagenta)

You can shave of some of the wood at the bridge, but be aware of the break angle at the bridge (The angle of the string between the bone and the holes)

You dont want it to be below 20 degrees.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2006 7:49:44

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: questions on lowering action at ... (in reply to mrMagenta)

Zoran,

It sounds as though your guitar has a standard classical bridge, as opposed to a lower Flamenco one.

The strings should NOT touch the wood of the bridge. If you want to lower them by that much you will have to do what Anders says and trim some of the wood off of the front of the bridge.

It isn't a difficult job- you could use a cabinet scraper or a plane to do it. Or alternatively. take it to a luthier, and he can do it for you.

If you do it yourself, be aware that lowering the front of the bridge will also mean that your saddle slot is shallower. And also take care with the break angle like Anders said.

Jb

_____________________________

¡Si esto no está en compas, esto no es el Flamenco!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2006 11:34:16

DavidT

Posts: 181
Joined: Mar. 17 2005
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: questions on lowering action at ... (in reply to mrMagenta)

Zoran,

I've done this work with my guitar. No problem...
email me I'll show you details how-to instruction with pictures.

Dave

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2006 13:57:40

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: questions on lowering action at ... (in reply to DavidT)

quote:

I've done this work with my guitar. No problem...
email me I'll show you details how-to instruction with pictures.

Would this be the "improvised" 12-hole tie-block? Say, hows about posting a photo of that one...

Jb

_____________________________

¡Si esto no está en compas, esto no es el Flamenco!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2006 18:26:23

DavidT

Posts: 181
Joined: Mar. 17 2005
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: questions on lowering action at ... (in reply to JBASHORUN)

JB,

You're probably ahead of me on this subject.
I current use a alternate tieing withou looping. They look ugly though. But it's ok for keeping sufficient break angles. I'll try the 12-hole tie-block next. I need to to find a right tool..., a drill bit with a foot of shank length.

Dave

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2006 18:56:33

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: questions on lowering action at ... (in reply to DavidT)

quote:

I'll try the 12-hole tie-block next. I need to to find a right tool..., a drill bit with a foot of shank length.

LOL, good luck with finding a 2mm dia. drill bit with a 12" shank! You'll need it! Just an idea, but you might wanna try one of those flexible drill shaft attachments like so:

http://www.toolspot.co.uk/product/taylor-flexible-drill-shaft

I think this one's got a 1/4" chuck, but if you look hard enough you might be able to find one with an even smaller chuck. It might help you to get the angle for the second set of holes. I don't suppose it matters too much if the secondary holes are at a slight angle.

Jb

PS: if you do make it a 12 hole block, you might wanna consider the positioning of the secondary holes in relation to the primary ones... by placing the secondary holes slightly above (diagonally) the primary ones you can allow for easy "tucking in" of the string end. I think the Schramm website explains it better than I can:

http://www.schrammguitars.com/12hole.html

_____________________________

¡Si esto no está en compas, esto no es el Flamenco!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2006 19:51:38

mrMagenta

Posts: 942
Joined: Oct. 25 2006
From: Sweden

RE: questions on lowering action at ... (in reply to mrMagenta)

Thanks Anders, Jb and Dave

I'll do it at the next string change.
Shaving off two mm will likely be all it takes. The break angle is 25-30 degrees now. I guess there is some room before the 20-limit. Is seems though that whoever drilled the holes wasn't very exact, between the strings the angles vary up to 5 deg.

The hill where the bone is inset is a bit step-shaped behind the bone, that's what makes strings come in contact, so I'll just round it off a little.

I haven't thought about the bridges being different on flamenco and classical guitars. I don't know what to look for.

The bone and slot hole goes straight up from the soundboard, like on my classical, but the shape surrounding it is more slanted. The fourth picture of JB's link is close to what mine looks like. Mine is also a 12-hole. Only in that picture there is more wood on the front of the slot-hill, while mine has more at the back. ("front" as in soundhole side)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2006 22:40:34

DavidT

Posts: 181
Joined: Mar. 17 2005
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: questions on lowering action at ... (in reply to mrMagenta)

Zoran,

JB knows what he's talking about and very knowlegeable about it.
Thanks JB for the info. I wanted to do 12-whole option long time ago but kind of chicken-out...

Dave

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2006 23:03:56

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: questions on lowering action at ... (in reply to mrMagenta)

quote:

I haven't thought about the bridges being different on flamenco and classical guitars. I don't know what to look for.

Hejsan MrMagenta

A flamenco bridge looks the same, its just smaller. My bridges are 6 - 7mm high. This in order to make the stringheight correct, but also in order to have less mass, meaning faster attack.

The fact that you have a 12 hole tie black makes everything easyer, because it makes break angle a lot steeper.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 12 2006 7:20:57