RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have to play their own music.."

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Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to Strudl)

To the main topic:

To copy other player must not be no flamenco. If you copy good and authentic, of course, it will be flamenco.
Its important to leanr much stuff of oter and older players, to get an idea of what is flamenco. When you got it, you can start composing your own stuff. I think its the wrong way for beginners, to compose own falsetas, coz they wont become flamenco. There is no wrong thing on playing other peoples music. But it wont become the same, also if the oter persons technic is worser than yours. So if you wanna silence these jealous people who allways say "ohh vicente played the cis a little harder than you." Or "but paco plays it different", you have to play your own composed music.
By the way, you only can silence these persons when you

are spanish
gipsy
played for dance (minimum 20 years)
and for singing (minimum 20 years)
like Sabicas
.
.
and of course you have to be able to play with this "special" attack.

Easy to become a flamencoguitarrist, no?

So whatever you do when you are not spanish. Forget to think about becomeing a flamenco-guitarrist.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 14:18:35

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to sonikete)

i dont know lol, cause i am tipsy and just making conversation

dont worry all cool

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 14:20:09

Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 14:24:40

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to Doitsujin)

quote:

I think its the wrong way for beginners, to compose own falsetas, coz they wont become flamenco. There is no wrong thing on playing other peoples music.

No of course, playing other peoples stuff is essential in learning and there is nothing wrong with it.

But i think its more important to learn to accompany and learn the forms and techniques required to just play the core without any falsetas.

I mean paco falsetas are useless if you cant play a song progression with the basic technique and foot tapping in time.

The biggest problem is that people dont get the basic forms first, they get the fancy stuff and have to learn the core afterwards in a kind upside down way.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 14:25:36

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to Doitsujin)

well speaking for myself , everysinlge person on this website who studies flamenco and thinks of themsefs as a flamenco guitarist is one to me.

who the f. am i to tell you different ?

who the f. is anybody to tell u diff ? u know what u do and what u dont do, u know what u need to do and just do it, and f anybody else who dont approve of you

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 14:29:18

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to Doitsujin)

I have my opinions, which i stand by, and i dont really care if people agree with those or not, Im not forcing my opinions down anyones throat and i will fight for my opinions, but I am quite willing to listen to anyone elses arguments as well.

And as i said before people are free to decide if they agree with me or not.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 14:33:17

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Doitsujin)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 14:35:23

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to Doitsujin)

quote:

your own opinion is the only one that matters

Yeah, its impossible to be anything else than subjective. If youre not Buddha or something.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 14:37:38

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to Guest)

it dosent matter anyway

i would rather be arrognat and hopefull than respctfull and without hope.

i would rather be a dreamer that never achieves his dream than a realist who never dares to even dream because what hes dreaming about its so unheard off.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 14:42:13

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to Doitsujin)

quote:

i would rather be a dreamer that never achieves his dream than a realist who never dares to try because its so unheard off.

You are free to do whatever you feel like, i play flamenco and try to learn as much as i can without feeling very limited by the traditions. On the contrary i think the tight forms are inspiring and gives a format that helps the imagination a lot more than a blank paper would, where i had to invent the wheel.

If i thought it would be impossible for me to learn i wouldnt do it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 14:49:16

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to sonikete)

quote:

You are free to do whatever you feel like

lol thank you

i realize

quote:

i play flamenco and try to learn as much as i can without feeling very limited by the traditions

yes same

quote:

On the contrary i think the tight forms are inspiring and gives a format that helps the imagination a lot more than a blank paper would, where i had to invent the wheel.

only if inventing the weel is not in you

but it was in someone casue he did

and dont worry u didnt offend ma at all as i would not ever ever seriously ask anyone , noone not even paco himself if i am flamenco or not.

if i am not flamenco then i will do this not flamenco happily for the rest of my life because

and ofcourse you are entitled to your opinions is just that sometimes your opinions seem to be that noone who isnt a professinal guitarist in spain could ever call themselfs a flamenco guitarist.

so i gues u can understand how that kind of involves me in the conversation.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 15:08:27

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to Doitsujin)

Being flamenco or not is just words, if you can jump into a juerga and play with a singer without rehearsing you dont need to worry about "being flamenco" or not cause then youre doing it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 15:12:50

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to sonikete)

quote:

Being flamenco or not is just words, if you can jump into a juerga and play with a singer without rehearsing you dont need to worry about "being flamenco" or not cause then youre doing it.

so thats all it takes then ??

ok , i know a guitarist whos from spain here, he accompanies the singer perfectly in the buleria , but cannot play for dancers, is he a flamenco guitarist ?

I know a spanish singer in brisbane who sings a fandango perfectly but cannot sing in compas, is he flamenco ?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 15:18:13

Rain

Posts: 475
Joined: Jul. 7 2005

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to sonikete)

quote:

only if inventing the weel is not in you but it was in someone casue he did

Awesome reply. I cant stop laughing.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 15:20:08

Rain

Posts: 475
Joined: Jul. 7 2005

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to Rain)

" I think there for I am" Descartes

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 15:21:14

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to Doitsujin)

quote:

ok , i know a guitarist whos from spain here, he accompanies the singer perfectly in the buleria , but cannot play for dancers, is he a flamenco guitarist ?

I know a singer in brisbane who sings a fandango perfectly but cannot sing in compas, is he flamenco ?

Yes of course, flamenco is cante, and you have people specializing in certain palos. I dont see the big frigging mystery in this.

Flamenco = Cante

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 15:21:58

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to sonikete)

quote:

Im sorry to be a pain, but i have to repeat that flamenco is more than feeling it and about the guitar, its about understanding the forms and traditions and as a guitarist you are required to be able to shoulder being an accompanist and interact with dance and especially song.

Hi sonikete,

the question from Dominic was "when you became a flamenco guitarist?".

If he had asked "when you became a good flamenco guitarist" , i would have answered , i am still for sure not a good flamenco guitarist and maybe will never be a good one.

However, ok, i revise my comment. Let say i am someone trying to learn flamenco guitar.

Un Saludo. Arash

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 15:24:04

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to Doitsujin)

quote:

the question from Dominic was "when you became a flamenco guitarist?".

When you can interact with other flamencos without ****ing up what they do, and their reference will be singing.

The dance is based around the singing, the guitar is based on the forms around singing and the palmas and percussion is there to support the singing.

Poeple who havent got a clue about cante makes pretty strange guitar compositions because they dont understand the subtleties and periods of the singing and it might be pretty and in compas but it would have very little to do with flamenco.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 15:26:16

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to Doitsujin)

quote:

Yes of course, flamenco is cante, and you have people specializing in certain palos. I dont see the big frigging mystery in this.

Flamenco = Cante

please dont see this as me trying to learn mysteries about flamenco from you

see it more as me trying to learn the mysteries behind your thiking.

so the guy dosent even understand the compas, he only does 1 palo, hes a flamenco u say ?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 15:34:26

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to sonikete)

quote:

When you can interact with other flamencos without ****ing up what they do, and their reference will be singing.

ok then i have a question.

What if i dont want to play for singers or dancers.
What if i live in togo and i am the only one in this country who loves flamenco music. And there are no dancers and singers there and i can not leave the country to meet dancers/singers.
What if i want to play flamenco guitar only for me at home.
Let say i practice 20 years and someday i perfectly play in compas all palos. But just solo. no dancers and singers.

What will you call me?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 15:37:26

Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 15:38:45

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to Arash)

I would call you master !!!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 15:38:57

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to Doitsujin)

quote:

What will you call me?

It doesnt matter, flamenco is a collective culture where people interact so that would just be a bit antisocial.

If i was living alone on the moon it would be pretty irrelevant whatever label i would give myself.

I could call myself king for example and no one would be there to disagree.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 15:40:04

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to Florian)

u not serious romerito , if the guy loves flamenco and thats all he does for 20 years, devotes himself to it , listens to it, ofcourse hes a flamenco.

hope u werent suggestion that wasent enough

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 15:40:46

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to Doitsujin)

quote:

so the guy dosent even understand the compas, he only does 1 palo, hes a flamenco u say ?

Camaron had a very limited repertoir in the beginning as well...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 15:41:10

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to sonikete)

did he also have problems with the compas ?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 15:43:08

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to Florian)

here is what u are saying.

a Spanish guy in brisbaine, dosent practice only comes in because they pay him to sing one fandangos because he cant do anything else because of lack of compas, and he dosent care takes the money and goes.

thats more flamenco then the guy in togo who dedicates 20 years practicing it and loving it even tho he has noone else to do it with ?

thats freaking ridiculos

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 15:45:45

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to Doitsujin)

quote:

did he also have problems with the compas ?

If someone can sing fandangos great then he is singing flamenco and flamenco is singing.

He might not be regarded as a very knowledgeable flamenco but he is a lot more flamenco than a guitarists that cant play a basic song progression.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 15:47:02

Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 15:49:10

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to sonikete)

quote:

It doesnt matter, flamenco is a collective culture where people interact so that would be a bit antisocial.

my problem is also that i dont understand spanish language.
So how can i play for a singer when i dont understand what he/she is singing?
Is there a flamenco rule like: first learn spanish, otherwise you will never be a flamenco guitarist?

However i love to learn spanish and am trying to learn it.

Just wanted to say that such limitations are not "flamenco" as well!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 15:49:30