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RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert?
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Adam
Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON
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 RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (in reply to XXX)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Deniz
I guess until Ottmar doesnt change in this regard (its not only one album)
It isn't? Because I've been following the man for a while and I've never once heard him call his music flamenco (have seen him, on several occasions, emphatically state he's not playing flamenco), and have only seen the label used on his first album. From 19-frickin-89. Just saying, it seems pretty unfair to put something on the artist because of the way his fans perceive his music. It seems like you have this idea, and are just sort of assuming that it's true, then letting it shape your opinions. Whatever suits you, man.
And I find this sad because I think there are actually people here who would enjoy his music (those crazy folks who can enjoy music besides flamenco, that is), but because of this vitriol in the flamenco community just assume that he's worthless. He's one of the finest musicians I listen to (and, fwiw, the reason I'm into flamenco) so I find some of the suggestions here just ridiculous.
Here's a thought, and I'm just throwing this out there: I'd bet that the majority of people here who call his music "cheesy elevator music" or "department store music" haven't actually listened to all that much of his music. Just an idea I had.
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Date Nov. 21 2009 5:56:35
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XXX
Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
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RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (in reply to Adam)
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ramparts, please read what i quoted from his homepage. Do you really want to sell the idea that he has absolutely no influence on what is published on his page? Its all the fans who perceive him wrongly? This is the quote: "Liebert, who has incorporated his own innovative ideas into the vocabulary of flamenco—bringing electric bass, synthesizer, electronics, drum kit, and more into the mix".
The reason you are into flamenco is not Ottmar. He is the coincidence that make you look further, to investigate. Just like seeing a flamenco show by coincidence, or having friends that do flamenco by coincidence. The reason you are into is your taste. I was very much into the Trio stuff (Pdl, Meola, McL.). Since i played with fingers and Paco was the only one with fingers technique, I investigated further about his stuff. After listening to his flamenco recordings, i got into flamenco. But the trio stuff was not the reason i liked flamenco.
Anyways, this topic had too much of my attention anyway. If you think he is a fine musician, fine. Each his own i guess. I don't think he is worthless, unless you have a flamenco point of view. I wont argue why  And i also wont argue about the quality of his music, which was never a topic for me.
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Фламенко
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Date Nov. 21 2009 6:19:48
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Ricardo
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (in reply to Adam)
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True majority of aficionados and flamencos don't really care at all about ottmar good or bad. Simply not a flamenco so who cares?
I on the other hand have a different view. I encountered Ottmar early in my learning of flamenco. I was buying ANYTHING that was advertised as such. Back then Ottmar was advertised, in magazines and music stores as a new but top notch FLAMENCO GUITARIST.
I bought his album cuz the printed cover stated he was to join the ranks of other flamenco master such as SABICAS and PACO DE LUCIA. Yes, they actually used those names on the album cover, it was more than a dedication TOO paco.
So as I said before it made me acually ANGRY and I sold the disc back to the store. Sorry if that offends any fans, but I honestly felt cheated, and no other musician I can think of ever has done that to me. It is hard for me to get past that, but I gave the guy 2 more chances. I read his article where he said "whoa is me, Paco doesn't like me....all I ever was was a fan and a rock player and wanted to pay tribute...." BS. He goes on in the same article to describe flamenco playing techniques, guitars and strings etc as if he was a true master of the style.
Now the 3rd chance I gave him, I bought his DVD to see if he improved. I recognized he could infact to a decent picado, his strumming not so good, but the thing really got to me was how MUCH he held back his playing.....it actually makes me even more mad to see that. Just deliberate light and fluffy. I feel the same about many singers that don't let it out. It really gets on my nerves and I soon after grab my guitar and go nuts on the thing, or crank my car stereo and belt out along with some CDs to get it off my chest.
Now comparing to strunz. Well, not Farah, but STRUNZ it is clear from his playing he is a legit flamenco player. His sound, and feeling coming out. He first admits that his group does NOT play flamenco, and no bulerias or Tangos labels, LIKE OTTMAR DOES!!!!! Sure it can be said he and Farah OVER PLAY quite a bit, but for me that is way better then underplaying. That is just MY opinion of course, and these things are just to taste.
I have nothing against ANYONE that loves and respects ottmar, or whoever. I can only speak for myself and the way I feel when I perceive music. I think everything has some value, at least for the artist himself, or he would not do anything. And that is enough for it to be valid. But the idea that there is envy or whatever of popularity and that is what makes people mad, that is not a fair generalization. To me Paco is WAY more popular world wide, and also a great artists, so why would HE get mad at ottmar cuz of envy???? 
Anyway, listen on guys, to whatever you like. Ottmar IS a flamenco player, as he makes use of flamenco palos in his compositions. The problem is he does not really do a fair job interpreting them, and should have more respect for the art form if he loves it so much, to either do it justice, or don't do it.
Ricardo
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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Nov. 21 2009 10:11:22
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aeolus
Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier
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RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (in reply to aeolus)
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Ottmar's view of the sitution;
JJ: I would imagine that Paco De Lucia, and Paco Pena are more popular than ever due to you!
O: Oh, yeah. We have had arguments about that, and Paco has been very outspoken saying that every kid in the street in Spain is a better guitarist than me. He talks badly about me, and I have never said a bad word about him, and I dedicated an album to him. Yet, his own record company three years back said “After the repopularization of Flamenco Guitar in America due to Ottmar Liebert, and Strunz & Farah, we now present ...Paco” , he’s using my name for sales & marketing , which I don’t mind, and then bashing me, which I do have a problem with.
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Date Nov. 21 2009 10:18:38
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gato
Posts: 322
Joined: Jun. 9 2007
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RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (in reply to rombsix)
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Something happened a while back on the foro and I almost puked blood so I got off and decided to come back! It's been swell doin' my own thing and having it my own way without worrying about this website, and no, I am not a controll freak, but I do have this to say about Ottmar Liebert:
So he isn't puro, and he does his own thing, and that I respect, but it seems that a lot of people think that he has sold out to the common marketplace, and that always means either of two things or both, he is so totally in it for the money, or he is doing what he is told, but like I say I don't hear a lot but negativity so I am totally turned off by the situation, but you must admit he carved out a nitche, and that is great. You see it's all what we have enthusiasm for so it's not who is right or who is wrong here, it's all about personal taste, and we do make our own choices or at least we are supposed to.
I have my own tastes in music and in the flamenco but I keep them to myself, and like I say a lot of people get something out of his music and I think that is ok, we all listen to what we prefer and we all have that right. Music is music, and of course there are people who really sacrifice a lot to bring authentic flamenco to the masses. There is a lot of talk and that's all it is, talk. So I said it but still, I wish there weren't so many people into pseudo purism for the sake of ego, and maybe I would have herd more of Ottmar's music without the cheap negativity so I would know what to say, otherwise I just don't have any point of view whatsoever.
Gary
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The Life Everlasting/Oswald Utopia
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Date Nov. 21 2009 13:25:20
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gato
Posts: 322
Joined: Jun. 9 2007
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RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (in reply to Doitsujin)
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Here's a curve for yeh, in the world of guitar players does anyone ever mention all of the great Dobro players out there? At least in the flamenco it's a lot about Paco, and I respect him and his work, but the criteria for judgement of players in the world of music is mainly subjective opinion, based on the frenzy of people who all seem to agree, and do their listening afterward, without really seeing that the scope of the music is all fame oriented, and when the snowball get's rolling it gets bigger and bigger.
That is never so with rare instruments such as the Dobro or Dobro players, or any odd kind of music being recorded, and now that the flamenco is well known around the world, well you get the idea. I know that is kind of well, stretching the arguement about Paco but it does at least give it an extra kind of dimension.
People follow, and you could get along enjoying the flamenco without records, and videos. And what people say means so much sometimes more than the actual music.
I myself don't worship Paco, and I don't think that I ever will because I am so immersed in to what I am doing which I don't think will be of mention to a lot of people, but I do enjoy the classical guitar being played when I hear it, and it doesn't have to be grandiose. I think a lot of flamenco is fine just the way it is without superstardom of any kind. That to me is the state of the art, and I can enjoy alot that I do hear, and it is within my comfort zone to admit that, even if it's someone not to many people know of.
To me flamenco without stardom is the central nervous system of the flamenco and no one artist can do without it. It brings a depth of expression and joy for the art form with or without Paco. You either see it that way or you are addicted to your record collection, and that is all about knowing what you want in life. You can enjoy almost anything, and it would be reasonably said that you couldn't enjoy a lot more than you could fathom without being completely honest to yourself about it, and letting go of the frenzy and hype.
Gary
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The Life Everlasting/Oswald Utopia
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Date Nov. 21 2009 17:17:59
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minordjango
Posts: 918
Joined: Feb. 26 2005
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RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (in reply to aeolus)
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quote:
the classic guitar world is more like china. No individuals allowed, whereas flamenco is like a continuos rebellion.
i like that, and i have to say yor 100% on the mark, mind you its The governements fault not the people of china.
more people cross the DMZ (nth korea) than play flamenco in china.
I agree with Kozz and el gato ,well put . must say people like Juan Martin and even D.koster(i heard some negative things about them.........i personally feel there is some great information in their method books , articulate and concise.
i was jst slistening to pepe romero playa a petenera from his "flamenco album" i like it , i sometimes yearn for a little more melodius (or dynamic contrast) .
does anyone here like the works of say Emilio.Pujol, sainz de la maza , f.m torroba ??
they are inspired by the art of flamenco yet write some cools stuff IMO.
also (my 4 bob worth here!.
dylans , Bob subterraneab sick blues is that blues ?
steve stevens Flamenco piece .
yngwie malmsteens flamenco devil ??
tuck andress uses flamenco techniques?
point is lets not try to be too puristy! about it , just enjoy share ideas, which everyone has done , but maybe hold back some harsh comments, enjoy the fact we can all chat and play guitar!! as we like
peace MD
django reindhardt (echoes of spain ??)
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Date Nov. 22 2009 3:19:07
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gj Michelob
Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco
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RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
Ottmar was advertised, in magazines and music stores as a new but top notch FLAMENCO GUITARIST.
I bought his album cuz the printed cover stated he was to join the ranks of other flamenco master such as SABICAS and PACO DE LUCIA. Yes, they actually used those names on the album cover, it was more than a dedication TOO paco.
So as I said before it made me acually ANGRY and I sold the disc back to the store
While cutting through my finger, last summer in Italy, the Surgeon told the nurse that they had to be extremely careful in treating me, “on the one hand because the patient is an American lawyer -he said- and on the other hand because he is a flamenco player. These musicians are virtuosos of the guitar” he declared. Then he paused, “who is that great flamenco musician, I have a few of his CDs?” I replied by enunciating slowly ‘the’ holy names of Paco de Lucia, Pena, Amigo, Tomatito.
He interrupted me, when the name came to mind… I was disappointed but not surprised.
“Flamenco influenced elevator-music” I thought, but was in position to contradict the man holding a knife over my finger’s delicate destiny.
Repeating the same six-note-phrase over a synthesized three-note-melody while distant percussions knock a most elementary rhythm, is elevator music. Yes phrases are borrowed from flamenco traditional music, but are kidnapped form the story they formed and stripped of any character, emotion and depth. There is a huge market for elevator, lounge and SPA’s music, it feeds on an assortment of styles, from blues to classical, from rock to country, and yes our dear Flamenco, of course. Most musicians who play and record it, are fine musicians who did not make it in their respective genre, but made a living, or a fortune at times, selling what the commoners enjoy. Simplified, undemanding, inoffensive… bland… dull…duh…
Ultimately it settles with what made Ricardo angry: misleading information and labeling… if it is not Brazilian, say it is Caviuna, for Pete’s sake.
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gj Michelob
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Date Nov. 22 2009 5:35:58
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Stoney
Posts: 132
Joined: Nov. 6 2009
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RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (in reply to aeolus)
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quote:
Perhaps it can be said that only those who have suffered oppression can truly express the art of the cante jondo.
After George W. wouldn't that make anyone on the planet eligible?
Anyway, on another note, maybe what offends so many people is the following. Let's say you are a white guy from the deep dark wilderness of Canada, you figure you get a guitar, strum a few chords, sing a few heart-breaking country tunes, head to the big city and make it big. Millions roll in and you move to Nashville. Ok, so it's a long shot right. Million to one.
But it turns out that you HATE country music so you get an electric guitar and learn to play the blues. But since you're not black, or from Chicago or Texas and since the blues market is much smaller than the country market you figure your chances are 25 million to one.
Jazz? 50 million to one.
So what are the chances of makiing it in the Flamenco world? Plus, considering the difficulty level of the music vs. the size of the Market for it, there is really only two reasons for playing this kind of music (the first is standard in any form of music) 1. To impress chicks and 2. For personaly musical and artistic satisfaction.
Then along comes Ottmar, preverts and prostitutes the style, homogonyzes it for the mASSES, and sells millions. Who can blame real Flamencos and Flamenco fans for being disgusted?
Stoney
PS. Why is it authentic Gypsy Music when Gypsys play Pure Flamenco and it's commercial crap when real Gypsies play Rumbas a la Gypsy Kings? Did it never occur to anyone that maybe THOSE particular Gypsies from that Particular area just happen to play those particular styles more? Not any less authentic until they commercialize it to death.
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Date Nov. 24 2009 7:26:08
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gj Michelob
Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco
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RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (in reply to aeolus)
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quote:
Flamenco to some here is akin to religion it seems.
First of all, Aeulus, accept my apology if I inadvertently offended you. It was not my intention at all. I –of all people- am quite at odds with the strict rules of flamenco and am admittedly rather simpleminded about the all phenomenon and culture, enjoying solely unaccompanied guitar work, not the Cante nor the dance. Hence, I am not policing the world to chase the witches flying astray of tradition. My own music leaves a lot to be desired from a strictly flamenco prospective.
However, my commentary about Ottmar goes beyond the issue of whether he should or should not define himself a Flamenco (surely he should not, since that style has certain beautiful rules aged in botegas’ wine and cigarette smoke, we should not compromise). What I personally dislike of Ottmar is the “emptiness’ of musicality, texture, almost of any creative effort. It is –in simple terms- the “fast food’ of music, exploiting the uncultivated taste of masses now accustomed to “fast” and no longer able to discern and savor spices and condiments.
I am glad I play music for my own solitary and personal satisfaction, but if I had to earn a livelihood with it… I would not rule out the Ottmar’s path.
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gj Michelob
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Date Nov. 24 2009 14:09:10
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