Yamaha CG 171-SF

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Yamaha CG 171-SF

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deyo

Posts: 84
Joined: Jan. 12 2006
From: Croatia

Yamaha CG 171-SF

Hi guys !

Tomorrow morning, i am going to buy my very first flamenco guitar

So, if you can tell me any hints, or advice, like if i should check anything on neck or strings or action or whatever before i buy it? Thanks for your help

Deyo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 1 2006 12:14:40

the_jamez

Posts: 15
Joined: Jun. 13 2006

RE: Yamaha CG 171-SF (in reply to deyo)

I'm thinking of buying the CG 171-SF as well since i have a really badly made classical guitar. Can anyone who's used/owns one share any experience with the playability, tone, action, neck thickness etc., since i'm gonna have to buy this online without being able to test it myself.

One more thing.. has anyone ordered one from music123.com? Just curious to know if it was in mint condition at the time of arrival or not.. Thanks
J

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 2 2006 9:34:23

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: Yamaha CG 171-SF (in reply to deyo)

The Yamaha is a good guitar. Not great, but good for the price. The bridge is lower than a classical guitar, which is typical of flamenco guitars and allows the lower action we want. The neck is slightly slimmer than a classical too, but not excessively slim. The workmanship is superb for a cheap guitar... there are pretty inlays/mosaics on the tieblock, binding and along the centre of the back. The tone is okay- you can tell the difference between the Yamaha and a cheap classical guitar, but it probably would not compare favourably to a high end/hand-made guitar. My only major criticism of the tone is that there is too much "growl" on the bass strings for my liking... I prefer a drier tone. generally though, for a couple of hundred bucks, its not a bad deal.

Jb

PS: try and do a search on the forum, as I believe ToddK uploaded a clip of him playing his yamaha, which might give you some idea of the sound.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 2 2006 10:56:25

henrym3483

Posts: 1573
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: Yamaha CG 171-SF (in reply to the_jamez)

i got mine for €420, great guitar lovely bite to the sound as well.id advise savarez or d'addario guitar strings for it.

first of all,

- checks theres no major dents in the body of the guitar
-check the fret board is straight as well as the neck
-check the bridge is aligned
-play it and see what response you get from it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 2 2006 10:58:21

bernd

Posts: 680
Joined: Feb. 15 2004

RE: Yamaha CG 171-SF (in reply to deyo)

What the hell makes this Yamaha a recomandable flamenco instrument? I had the oppertunity to check it. It had no golpeador and an action at bridge that an airoplane can pass through. Regarding the sound I would say a hard paper box has more substancy. What I could check as CG 171-SF was really just a contribution to make forest dieback. I´d better install a golpeador to a classical guitar.

Sorry for my hard words. Either bad Yamaha´s were sent to Germany or those were monday made guitars. I never checked them again. Maybe the quality has changed. I would recomand to save more money for a really authentical flamenca ready to use.

Saludos
Bernd

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 3 2006 12:20:26

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: Yamaha CG 171-SF (in reply to bernd)

Bernd,

I don't think the guitar you played was a CG171SF. The CG171SF comes with Golpeadores as standard. At least these days it does. It doesn't compare to a hand made guitar, but it is a good beginners guitar.

Jb

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 3 2006 14:48:08

Fulcanelli

Posts: 18
Joined: Sep. 2 2006

RE: Yamaha CG 171-SF (in reply to JBASHORUN)

I have two students with this guitar and one (ordered via the internet) is okay, but the other (picked out from a store) is really a nice sounding guitar for the money. I am concluding that there is quite a bit of lattitude regarding the quality of these instruments. Of course, no two guitars will ever be the same, until we learn to clone them and construct them from some generic cosmic material. But that's in the far distant future.

Anybody else have this experience with this model guitar?

BTW, probably an unorthodox thing to do, but the store where I played this guitar had it tuned down a whole step and it really had a very pleasant low guttural sound...No major buzzing, but VERY fast action.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 3 2006 15:28:42

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: Yamaha CG 171-SF (in reply to Fulcanelli)

I think its important to remember that the Yamaha is a FACTORY MADE guitar, and consequently there will be variations in quality from one to the next. Maybe this is true with most guitars. I can only judge by MY yamaha, and from what others have told me. But from this, I would say that as far as factory-made guitars go, the Yamahas are usually better than buying some of the other very cheap Flamenco guitars out there. That said, IMHO a yamaha really will not compare favourably to a decent luthier-made guitar.

Jb

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 3 2006 21:30:40

Hugh

Posts: 130
Joined: Jul. 27 2006

RE: Yamaha CG 171-SF (in reply to deyo)

Yamaha acoustics are actually really well made guitars for the money.
I have had two of them over the years. One a steel strung acoustic and the other (my present guitar) a classical.
I have tried out much dearer classicals in the shops than this one and still found mine to be far superior.
I know a factory built Yamaha flamenco instrument is never going to match a hand-made guitar, but its still going to be a really good instrument to play I'd say, going by my past experiences with Yamaha. I am well pleased with the sound I get out of mine, for the modest price of £470 with case, I have had no complaints.
I've actally been toying with the idea of a CG171-SF myself, for a first flamenco guitar.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 4 2006 6:53:02

bernd

Posts: 680
Joined: Feb. 15 2004

RE: Yamaha CG 171-SF (in reply to Hugh)

Hi aficionados,

please tell me the action at bridge under the E bass string. More than 9 mm?

you can be sure it was CD 171-SF that I had checked. I also know very well about the difference of hand made and factory made guitars. But what I´d found I even would not have given it as a gift to girlfriend or anybody else. Regarding your last posts I see the quality must have got changed. If I have the oppertunity, then I will check it again. But I can imagine to prefer buying a full solid Prudencio Saez Model 22 - again the bridge action is really not the best, very often 11 - 13 mm. So a classical would be suitable as well...

Saludos
Bernd

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 4 2006 11:01:24

Gummy

Posts: 495
Joined: Nov. 27 2005
From: North Carolina, USA

RE: Yamaha CG 171-SF (in reply to bernd)

I just tried to measure mine. From the crown of the 18th fret, the bass E string is about 4mm. My action has not been adjusted. I would not hesitate to get one of these guitars, I think people may be looking at old ones. Mine really is beautiful. Yes, I hope to upgrade one day but for function and sound there really is no reason for me to. Took a pic but angle/focus was difficult.
Rod

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 4 2006 13:40:14

deyo

Posts: 84
Joined: Jan. 12 2006
From: Croatia

RE: Yamaha CG 171-SF (in reply to deyo)

Well, i did buy Yamaha two days a go. And my first impressions are very good. I never played flamenco guitar before (just classical ones) so i don't have anything to compare it to except for classical guitars. Basses are very crisp, very loud and a little "buzzy" which i like very much. That is one thing that contributes a lot to the flamenco sound i was looking for. Well trebles were not what i was expecting. I guess i expected a lot more of a sharp, short-sustained and kind of agressive tone. But it's more like mild and soft, although beautiful tone. Anyway dinamics are great, especially when i play on 1st, 2nd, 3rd string. I would compare it to a tube amp dinamics

If you play soft you get clean tone, if you hit the strings really hard it's almost like distorsion. But anyway i still expected a little more sharpness on trebles. Or it's my techinque ?

Action is just fine. Much lower than on classical guitar. Very enjoyable to play. On the 19th fret it's exactly 5mm. And over the golpeador its about 11-12 mm. What do you think, should i go to the luthier and have my action even lower ?? Being left handed golpeador on "my" lower side is way smaller than the one on the top, so i will have to add some more plastic so i don't damage a finish with nails..

http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/1198/1uq2.jpg

http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/4516/2ew6.jpg

http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/4116/3qh1.jpg

http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/5140/4wc5.jpg

http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/9348/5dv3.jpg

http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/807/6th4.jpg

http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/7639/7iy1.jpg

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 4 2006 14:36:41

the_jamez

Posts: 15
Joined: Jun. 13 2006

RE: Yamaha CG 171-SF (in reply to deyo)

Looks really nice. You should try slapping on some extra hard tension la bellas and then let us know how it sounds, since factory strings aren't necessarily the best quality and are almost always medium/normal tension. I would be satisfied with the stock action on the yamaha. My classical's action is 6 1/2 mm on the 19th - and a little bit less than 5mm(4.8?) on the 12th, and that's after i lowered it! Does any1 know how long it would take to deliver for an international order from music123?

J

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 4 2006 15:56:35

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: Yamaha CG 171-SF (in reply to bernd)

quote:

please tell me the action at bridge under the E bass string. More than 9 mm?

Bernd,

The action on my yamaha at the bridge (Including the saddle) is exactly 9mm. Not including the saddle it is about 7.5 to 8mm.

regarding the action height, I like to lower the saddle as much as possible without giving a buzz (I don't like buzz).

Jb

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 4 2006 16:55:53

bernd

Posts: 680
Joined: Feb. 15 2004

RE: Yamaha CG 171-SF (in reply to JBASHORUN)

If I understood right there is one guitar with fully acceptable action of 9 mm and the other of deyo with 11 - 12 mm which is absolutely not acceptable. For more than 9 mm you must have a long nail plate. Otherwise the i and m golpe will hurt. I see the action range is quite big. So it will be lottery deal buying it on the internet.

Thanks for the info.

Saludos
Bernd

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 4 2006 19:11:49

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: Yamaha CG 171-SF (in reply to bernd)

quote:

If I understood right there is one guitar with fully acceptable action of 9 mm and the other of deyo with 11 - 12 mm which is absolutely not acceptable. For more than 9 mm you must have a long nail plate. Otherwise the i and m golpe will hurt. I see the action range is quite big. So it will be lottery deal buying it on the internet.

Bernd,

I think the difference is that I have lowered the saddle, whereas Deyo's guitar is brand new, so its still set up as from the factory. If Deyo wants to make his action 9mm at the bridge, then he would probably just need to lower the saddle by sanding it down from the base: a basic setup. The bridge height on this guitar should be 7.5 to 8mm as standard, so your action can really be anything above this depending on how high you like the saddle.

Cheers,

Jb

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 4 2006 19:21:11

the_jamez

Posts: 15
Joined: Jun. 13 2006

RE: Yamaha CG 171-SF (in reply to deyo)

quote:

Bernd,

I think the difference is that I have lowered the saddle, whereas Deyo's guitar is brand new, so its still set up as from the factory. If Deyo wants to make his action 9mm at the bridge, then he would probably just need to lower the saddle by sanding it down from the base: a basic setup. The bridge height on this guitar should be 7.5 to 8mm as standard, so your action can really be anything above this depending on how high you like the saddle.

Cheers,

Jb

How high is your action at 12th fret low E string? And how much did you lower it from when it was stock

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 4 2006 19:28:29

deyo

Posts: 84
Joined: Jan. 12 2006
From: Croatia

RE: Yamaha CG 171-SF (in reply to JBASHORUN)

Can you tell me how to sand down saddle from the base ? Should i do that on my own or take the guitar to a specialist?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 4 2006 19:30:36

Guest

RE: Yamaha CG 171-SF (in reply to deyo)

Be very careful how you sand the saddle: this will allow very little adjustment and if you reduce the break angle of the string over the bridge the guitar will lose sound. Try the strings with no bone in the saddle at all. You cannot realistically go much lower than this without removing wood, but this will tell you what you could achieve.

Nor should you sand the bone from its bass: this needs to be in good contact with the wood of the bridge. Mark a pencil line while the bone is still in place and use it a a guide wnen filing the top. Remember to finish with very fins sandpaper and a relief towards the back of the bridge.

Suerte

Sean

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 4 2006 19:44:10

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: Yamaha CG 171-SF (in reply to the_jamez)

quote:

How high is your action at 12th fret low E string? And how much did you lower it from when it was stock

Jamez,

The action on my yamaha at the 12th fret is currently set at 2.3mm. This is measured from the TOP of the metal fret to the BOTTOM of the low E string. I'm not sure what it was originally, but I'm pretty sure I lowered it by at least 0.5mm and 1.5mm at most.

Deyo,

If your guitar is under warranty, you may invalidate it by messing around with the action. So you may want to take it to the supplier to get the setup done. usually a setup costs around £50-80 (depending on the instrument), but this varies from country to country, and I would think where you live it would be fairly cheap.

If you want to do it yourself, what you need to do is this:

-take off the guitar strings.
-remove the saddle.
-use double-sided tape to stick a sheet of sandpaper to a FLAT board.
-mark a line on the saddle where you want to sand to... you can figure out where this is by measuring the current action height and then deciding how much lower you want the action. If you want to lower it by 0.5mm, then mark the line 0.5mm above the base of the saddle.
-using the sanding board, sand the base of the saddle down until it meets the line you have just drawn. BUT bear in mind that it is easier to take off material than put it back on, so its best to sand in small steps, a little at a time, putting the strings back on in between, and seeing how she plays. Also bear in mind that you might want one side of the saddle higher than the other if necessary. When sanding the base of a saddle, it is advisable to keep the saddle at a 90 degree angle to the sanding board. And always sand from the base up.

Its often wise to use a completely new "saddle blank" instead of the saddle that is currently in your guitar. That way, if you mess up the new one, you can still pop the old one back in. And its also useful to compare the old and new saddles to give a visual idea of how much lower you have sanded the new saddle. A completely new saddle blank will require more sanding work than using the existing one. If choosing a new saddle blank, go for a nice dense material like bone over the cheaper plastic ones.

It is not really a difficult job. this is part of a standard setup, and you should really learn to do this sooner rather than later if you're serious about guitars. But if its a Conde or top-of-the-range guitar, maybe its best to let the luthier do it, or at least practise on a cheaper guitar.

Good luck!

James

PS: Nice list of influences on your Webspage, Deyo... Vinnie Moore is amazing!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 4 2006 20:04:32

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: Yamaha CG 171-SF (in reply to Guest)

quote:

Nor should you sand the bone from its bass: this needs to be in good contact with the wood of the bridge. Mark a pencil line while the bone is still in place and use it a a guide wnen filing the top.

Not to contradict you sean, but I was taught always to sand from the bottom, and ensure that it is done at a 90 degree angle to the sides. Especially if you are using the existing saddle. The Yamaha has a "compensated saddle" so you don't really want to go sanding this part down, unless you want to re-compensate it afterwards. But I'd agree that the top should be tapered toward the back of the bridge. And would just say to ensure the base is perpendicular to the sides to provide good contact with the bridge.

If anyone else has an opinion on whether top or bottom sanding is best, please share it!

Jb

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 4 2006 20:13:08

deyo

Posts: 84
Joined: Jan. 12 2006
From: Croatia

RE: Yamaha CG 171-SF (in reply to JBASHORUN)

Hey JBashorun thanks a lot for the tips and advices. I'll see what i can or should do with this action issue after a few days. I still need to get used to new guitar

I really appreciate it. And also all of the others comments as well

p.s. thanks for checking my webpage

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 4 2006 20:49:18

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: Yamaha CG 171-SF (in reply to deyo)

No problem Deyo. If you decide to do the saddle yourself, the Musical Instrument Maker's Forum ( www.MIMF.com ) is a good source of information.

Here's a sample:

http://www.mimf.com/library/saddle_fitting.htm

(You will see that opinion is divided as to whether to sand from the top or bottom).

Anyway, I'm sure you can find more articles in their "Library" if necessary, but you may need to register first.

Good luck with your music!

Jb

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 4 2006 21:37:09

Guest

RE: Yamaha CG 171-SF (in reply to JBASHORUN)

quote:

Not to contradict you sean, but I was taught always to sand from the bottom,

Fine for you. I work in the taller of Rafael Lopez.

http://rafaellp.iespana.es/web/index.htm

This is how we work on flamenco guitars in Spain.

Sean

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 4 2006 22:09:30

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: Yamaha CG 171-SF (in reply to deyo)

Sean,

I don't doubt your credentials at all. maybe thats the way its done in Spain. And little do I know.

It just seems like a shame to wreck a perfectly angled and compensated saddle top, when some careful sanding to the bottom will function just as well.

But hey... maybe you're right. I will do some more research to investigate other luthiers' thoughts on this matter.

Jb

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 4 2006 22:33:13

the_jamez

Posts: 15
Joined: Jun. 13 2006

RE: Yamaha CG 171-SF (in reply to deyo)

It would be really nice if some1 who owns one could post some audio, or even better video of how the yamaha plays.. I'm really interested in finding out how it sounds since theres no way for me to test one out in my region..

quote:

PS: try and do a search on the forum, as I believe ToddK uploaded a clip of him playing his yamaha, which might give you some idea of the sound.

I've been getting an error message whenever i try searching the foro and its been happening on both my browsers(opera and mozilla). Could you post a link. Thanks

J

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 5 2006 9:35:33

Gecko

Posts: 218
Joined: Jan. 2 2006
From: New Mexico

RE: Yamaha CG 171-SF (in reply to deyo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deyo

Can you tell me how to sand down saddle from the base ? Should i do that on my own or take the guitar to a specialist?

Here is another good site with pictures. You may wish to keep your original saddle at its original height and make a new one from bone. I've read numerous threads about a substatinal improvement in sound quality from the 171's when the plastic saddle is replaced with one made from bone.

Saddle Adjustment

Making a New Saddle

New bone blanks are only $3-4 USD and the process is not difficult at all.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 5 2006 10:16:01

Hugh

Posts: 130
Joined: Jul. 27 2006

RE: Yamaha CG 171-SF (in reply to deyo)

Does anybody know where I can get a bone saddle in the UK?

I've been searching and can only find USA suppliars.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 5 2006 10:56:46

bernd

Posts: 680
Joined: Feb. 15 2004

RE: Yamaha CG 171-SF (in reply to Hugh)

Normally you get bone saddles at any guitar store, so this is the case in Germany. Every guitar maker has them, too.

If you have no chance, then the following link might help you. Click at the right corner on the british flag and then "Music" in the head menue above. After this click "Guitar Parts and Accessories" in the menue on the left. Here´s the link:

www.dick-gmbh.de

Saludos
Bernd

EDIT
:
Uff.... as I just see, the company name in English language seems to be dirty word. -gmbh.de is the second part of the domain. The first part is (leave out the hyphens!): d-i-c-k

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 5 2006 11:50:25

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: Yamaha CG 171-SF (in reply to Hugh)

quote:

Does anybody know where I can get a bone saddle in the UK?

I get my saddle blanks from www.luthierssupplies.co.uk or www.touchstonetonewoods.co.uk

But there may be a minimum order value. Failing this, your local guitar store should sell them.

Jb

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 5 2006 13:02:30