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RE: sticking points for speed   You are logged in as Guest
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Grisha

 

Posts: 1251
Joined: Mar. 17 2005
 

RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to el ted

Damn it! I just lost my essay!

A few points, then.

Higher tension string bounces less, so you have more control. But it is also harder for the finger to move it. If you play same speed scales on both tension strings, it will take more effort to play high tension. That means you'll run out of juice sooner at higher velocities. Speed is proportional to power used. So you will reach your power limit at a somewhat lower speed. Think of hard tension strings as a downforce device on a race car. It may give you more stability, but takes away the top end.

There are more things at play here. Action is as important as strings tension. The lower the action, tho looser the strings, right? So, less speed. With a higher action your left hand fingers have to push the string a greater distance to play in closed position. So, less speed. Fingernails. The shorter the distance your nail has to travel in contact with the string the less time will be waisted, giving you more speed. Nail thickness. The wider contact area with the string the more friction, so less speed. Power. When you play harder, string moves more, so there you have your lower tension string effect. And let's not forget the position of your right hand in relation to sound hole and bridge. Different, as night and day.

Interesting thought here. By sliding your right hand from sound hole to the bridge you may find the perfect resistance on both normal and high tension strings. But on lower tension strings it will be much closer to the bridge. And the problem with that is that your m finger will experience much greater resistance than i finger. On high tension strings and closer to the sound hole the resistance for both fingers will be more equal.

I said it all so much better in that essay.... damn...

I would say that for each one of us there is this one perfect tension that FEELS the best. The one we know best how to deal with. Like the drive from work to home.

P.S. Sorry, Ron.

P.P.S. Maybe what I am trying to say is that a lot of these factors are cancelling each other out when you start to vary them. So the key to fast picado is your ability to sense and adjust.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 23 2006 15:16:23
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3524
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to Doitsujin

Okay, to take a new tact... Grisha has proven that he can still execute the technique on a severely modified guitar. He told us he can play ANY guitar (and I believe him). This is highly different from my current situation.

My guitar has high or normal tension strings, low action, and a very nice feel to it. Whe I play other guitars, my performance is very much downgraded. For example, my friend plays an Ovation with extra high tension strings. The moment I pick that guitar up, I put it right back down. Yeech! I can't play it, it feels like reaching inside a piano.

I think most of us that are trying to play decently complicated things find that string tension does matter. I wonder if that points the fact that we're just not that good, or does it mean there's something specific we should be working on?

Lately I've realized an important point: you have to be able to control the moment of release of the RH note, and you have to be able to synchronize the action of playing RH and LH exactly.

Going further, if you are going to play fast, you need to be able to touch the string and release it in an instant, an instant you can control, and then relax. I know of no other way to play at speed.

So, we could see string tension interfering with this in a few ways:
1. needing more strength to release string
2. rubbery feeling somehow "sticking" on finger
3. increasing strength/time needed to push down LH

It seems to me that someone like Grisha is able to adjust to these factors, through experience and greater sensitivity (he is a very sensitive guy--I bought his album and he looks very sensitive on it :)). It might be a good exercise for regular guys to look at these factors and see how much of it we can counteract through a little use of the mind.

When I play over the hole, my string can easily pass through with no effort, but as I move toward the bridge, it begins to "catch". Part of this is because my fingernail may not be attacking the string properly. It may be at an angle that will _pull_ the string. Think, it is only a tiny light piece of nylon, but if you _pull_ on it, you could probably lift the whole guitar. But if you find a way to _slide_ through it, you can do it with much less strength. A low tension string will let you get away with less strength or a less than perfect angle. A higher tension string will make you work real hard, especially until you examine the problem and refine your attack. I hypothesize that not only does Grisha have a perfect attack, he is strong. So, no problem.

The problems with low tension strings are a little harder to analyze. Probably one of them is that eventually, your fingers will catch if you are not using a perfect attack. It is fine until you try to go fast, when this problem "catches up" to you. Another is that you are just not used to it. If you are always relying on that tension, it woudl take time to adjust to a more floppy feeling. You might find yourself adjusting your hand position or attack slightly.

As far as the LH goes, a higher tension string makes it harder to push down. So you need to have the ability to exert more force in the same amount of time. This seems to me to be a strength issue. Recall that as the task gets harder, we tend to use more and larger muscles. A light touch with one finger can easily be done, but a powerful blow calls upon the whole arm or body. This is natural, but lessens independence among the fingers. The prescription for this, it would seem would be gradual strengthening of the fingers individually through lots of slurs or perhaps playing on a high-action guitar while respecting the independent action of the fingers.

To those who are still reading, I would like to reiterate that I think it's important for the RH to be able to play a note in an instant, any instant. If you can gain enough control without clenching up your hand, the speed will easily follow once your mind can think the notes.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 23 2006 15:24:13
 
Grisha

 

Posts: 1251
Joined: Mar. 17 2005
 

RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

It seems to me that someone like Grisha is able to adjust to these factors, through experience and greater sensitivity (he is a very sensitive guy--I bought his album and he looks very sensitive on it :)).


Good point, Miguel! Hopefully it will end the argument that I may play without feeling! See? I am sensitive!

See my modified and updated post above.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 23 2006 15:53:56
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3524
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to Grisha

Grisha,
oops! I posted before I saw your essay. Great to hear your thoughts.

The problem of the m finger experiencing more tension is something I have been struggling with for quite awhile. It's like running with a "club foot", you know?

Thank you for sharing your essay. I have lost long treatises, too, now I copy it into memory before I press "OK".

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Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 23 2006 16:58:29
 
Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

To those who are still reading, I would like to reiterate that I think it's important for the RH to be able to play a note in an instant, any instant. If you can gain enough control without clenching up your hand, the speed will easily follow once your mind can think the notes.


Very readable. Good writing.

The more I read this type of thing in this forum the more I begin to see similarities to sports sciences:

Explosive anaerobic actions require generally relaxed body parts followed by explosive speed.

However, endurance is also a factor as Grisha points out. So there is a need for exercises to increase this.

So there is a need for speed training and endurance training. The formula for endurance training seems easy, repetition. Scales, practise pieces which are repetitive, our friend's picado scales, etc.
You could even mix it up and use this exercises to help build speed by taking a lesson from runners by doing interval training, normal speed scales interrupted by periods of your current max speed followed by a return to the normal practise speed.

Other than exercises that isolate fingers and movements (like our other friends reverse rasgeo which he says has increased his power), how to build for strength?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 23 2006 17:10:54
 
cneberg

Posts: 257
Joined: Apr. 20 2006
From: Sončno polje pri Večnosti

RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to Grisha

quote:

Damn it! I just lost my essay!


This is something I learned on this forum. Every time you write a long post, you should copy your text into notepad or something. Just in case you know..... I do it all the time.

Back to topic....I found out that picado is something that depends very little on what kind of guitar I play. It really doesn't matter much. But I guess picado is just something I do the best of all techniques.....so I also believe Grisha that he can play any guitar. All his techniques are perfect. The better you get, less importance has the instrument you play....
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 23 2006 21:01:00

ToddK

 

Posts: 2960
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
 

RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to Grisha

Grisha's post, with the down tuned guitar reminded me
of something i used to do when i was a teenager.
I had a similar cool party trick. That was , i could pick
up the absolute worst, rediculous high action, 10 year old
heavy gauge string, piece of crap guitar, and pretty much
play anything they'd ask.
It always brought fun and interesting reactions. :)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 23 2006 21:57:04
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3524
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to Grisha

Todd,
that's great, but can you play harmonics with your nose like David Russell?!

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Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 23 2006 22:42:43
 
Grisha

 

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Joined: Mar. 17 2005
 

RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to Miguel de Maria

I can! I have a nose just for it!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 23 2006 22:43:38
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3524
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to Grisha

"...Mr. Goryachev played a beautiful flamenco improvisation for his encore Friday night; of bell-like harmonics, percussive tapping effects, and trombone-like slides, all executed with his nose. It should be noted that he did this with great sensitivity, and received a five minutes' standing ovation."

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Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 24 2006 1:01:24
 
Grisha

 

Posts: 1251
Joined: Mar. 17 2005
 

RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to Grisha

Miguel, I believe you have to cite the sourse, which is Sunday Boston Globe!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 24 2006 1:15:18
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 845
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to Grisha

Grisha's post above got me thinking in the last few days. Particularly fingernail and power.

quote:

Fingernails. The shorter the distance your nail has to travel in contact with the string the less time will be waisted, giving you more speed. Nail thickness. The wider contact area with the string the more friction, so less speed.

Does it mean the nail ramp should not be long if we want high speed picado? We have to give the string less nail to travel across. So the longer the ramp the longer the travel distance. As a result we have less speed.

quote:

Power. When you play harder, string moves more, so there you have your lower tension string effect.

Lower tension string bounces more. So we have less control and slower picado.
A ramped nail pushes the string down to the soundboard making the string move more. As a result we have lower tension string effect. Again a ramp is counterproductive. I came to the conclusion all 3 finger nail (i, m and a) should not be ramped at all for the sake of speed. The nailshape with no ramp should look flat like (_) assuming our hand position is flamenco.

What do you guys think? Is my conclusion right?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 15 2021 21:38:13
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12671
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to devilhand

Yes but unfortunately, even though it is a good idea, when you actually use the i finger it is not only for picado and arpegio/tremolo. The angle changes when you use i in combination with pulgar passages that require a slight change of wrist. The flat edge i will catch on the thumb side corner unless you allow a slight (very slight is enough) ramp to accommodate the slight angle change. Conversely the ring finger, when you make a fist you will see, curves slightly toward the thumb as well. That means the exact reverse ramp angle is needed for the ring finger or you will get a similar “catching on the pinky side corner” situation where the string will get hung up there.

So the smoothest way is slight ramp incline (upward travel) away from thumb for i, m can be flat across, a finger will decline away from thumb.

Keep in mind the concept is not truly “flat” lines as the nail curves in 3 dimensions.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2021 14:42:49
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