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Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3524
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

sticking points for speed 

I have been getting frustrated with my scales lately because of inconsistency. Sometimes with picado, even the easy things seem hard. I didn't use m at all last year, and now I've finally gotten it so that it is strong again. But it seems like I've lost quite a bit of top-end speed, as well as useable speed.

Anyway, what I normally do is warmup and play scales at 80 bpm (sixteenths) for quite awhile, and eventually crank it up to 120. So 80 is the slow, and 120 is the fast. I would get frustrated because the 120 would give me problems.

Today, after getting annoyed I tried to crank it up to 135 and did the scales without any problem! I couldn't get it together on 120, but 135 was fine. I thought that I had lost a lot of speed but it was a bit of an illusion.

That reminds me sticking points. Basically in picado you have gears, or motions, kind of the difference between walking and running. (maybe Grisha also has a Superman gear). That's why most people can play their scales in a certain range of speeds fine, and then they hit the wall. A lot of times they think that means they've reached their limit, but all it means is they've reached their _speedwalking_ limit. They have to find their 2nd gear and then there is a whole new speed limit. (and when you reach that, maybe you start using 3 fingers?)

Anyway, it seems that 120 is my walking limit. And by the way, the limits are ugly. There is a spot, let's call it a singularity, where my technique is just a shambles! Scott Tennant talked about this in his book, too.

Disclaimer: I don't recommend blasting away at scales unless you've been playing them slowly and surely with full relaxation for many years. This statement has not been evaluated by the Surgeon General.

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Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 19 2006 21:40:20
 
duende

Posts: 3051
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to Miguel de Maria

i gave up i can never go faster than 150bpm anyway (16th notes)

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Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 20 2006 0:08:05
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3524
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to Miguel de Maria

Henrik,
have you tried doing dotted eighth notes at 180-200, "flams", repeating fingers, or other speed exercises? They work!

But 150 is fast enough anyway.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 20 2006 2:09:46
 
duende

Posts: 3051
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to Miguel de Maria

150 bpm is ok, but i need at least 160-168 the get that flowing feeling in my Alegrias. i think i should reache it by christmas maybe.

i can go 160bpm at a good day but not as long as a whole compas. and i nead that.

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 20 2006 7:20:10
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5063
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to Miguel de Maria

Try the 3 fingers picado. My limit is also with 2 fingers around 140 for longer picados. But I can play on 180 easyly with 3 fingers. I just have to construct and practice a good fingering for each picado. I dont use just a m i a m i. I changed it and found some tricks also with changing the strings.
Some people are very fast from natural and others not. But if you are lucky and you can coordinate well, you can play as fast as the others with using coordination-tricks with 3 fingers. If I find time, I would upload some examples.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 20 2006 7:45:56
 
Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
 

RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
I have been getting frustrated with my scales lately


Agree with you on the 'gear' concept, in fact I am sure we had this argument years ago where I was talking abut the walking vs running analogy and you disgreed with me

Anyway, here's a thought vaguely related to your post Mike - I wonder how many of the great flamencos actually practice scales, as opposed to just practicing the actual runs they need to play in their toque? Scale practice is kind of enshrined in CG pedagogy (as it is in classical music in general, whatever the instrument), but there isn't that 'schooled' pedagogy in flamenco.

The reason I bring this up is because I was talking to Rob MacKillop the other day (Scottish musician/composer who plays lute and various other instruments at an international level - Ron knows him). I was asking him about lute technique (as I had heard many lute players could play blistering runs) how they finger their scales and how the rh mechanism works in lute tech.

Anyway, I was really surprised when Rob said that he didn't know ANY lute players who praticed scales! They just work on the runs they need for their pieces, thats it.

This got me thinking - we tend to focus an awful lot of attention of the mechanism of picado, but very little on the practice habits of the greats, obviously because watching videos doesn't tell us how they practice, yet that is surely going to make some interesting reading.

Hey, is this another fast picado thread?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 20 2006 9:09:28
 
duende

Posts: 3051
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to Miguel de Maria

practiceing scales gives you a better mechanical workout than 1 run does.
Also if you practice the scales you can make you own picados easyer.

Im sure the flamenco practice a lot of the runns they are going to play more than scales. just listen to Pdl improvising. 90% of what he playes are already heard in his composed work. witch meen he must have put in a lot of time in playing the picado he made up since they are so "stuck" in his fingers.

Henrik

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This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 20 2006 9:27:14
 
Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
 

RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to duende

quote:

ORIGINAL: duende
practiceing scales gives you a better mechanical workout than 1 run does.
Also if you practice the scales you can make you own picados easyer.

(snip)

Im sure the flamenco practice alo ot the runns they are going to play more than scales.


..ermm, isn't that a contradiction?

But in any case you wouldn't be working on just one run, you would be working on all the runs you need. Isn't that more economical than playing lots of scales in lots of positions? Picado runs will be based on scales of course, but I just wondering whether many of the big hitters go through a regime of 'scale practice' in the way that I think Mike is talking about (maybe I should get Mike to clarify first what he means by scale practice ).

Here's another, related thought - Todd made the observation a while back that most picado runs you hear are descending runs. Given that, how much picado practice time do you want to devote to playing ascending scales?

With someone like Paco, its pretty obvious that he studied scales in the wider sense especially as he had to learn to improvise solos with McLaughin DiMeola et al. But I really wonder whether someone like Tomatito has a 'scale regime' that he works through, doing his C major in all positions or whatever.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 20 2006 10:26:38
 
duende

Posts: 3051
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to Miguel de Maria

It´s not a contradiction since in never said FLAMECOS pratice scales.
just said that scales gives a better workout.

I would say a guitarist that only wants to learn the lates Vicente picado
is not going to do very well as a guitarist or he wont even be serious about learning the guitar.

Im sure all the better guitarists in history has known scales
Not by their name but as shapes.

Tarantas has these "scales shapes", bulerias has a "buleria scale shape"
and so on. Thats the same as knowing scale even if you don´t know their name.


I would be like just learning Licks of Jimmy Page or what ever.

Why not learn the licks AND the Blues scale, then you´l be more complete and BETTER in the end

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 20 2006 10:59:26
 
Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
 

RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to duende

quote:

ORIGINAL: duende
It´s not a contradiction since in never said FLAMECOS pratice scales.
just said that scales gives a better workout.


But that's the whole point I'm making, Henrik (or rather, question I'm asking) - do the big names work on scales in general or not?

I'm not concerned about the intrinisic value 'in general' of scale practice and what it means in terms of one's development as a musician - I agree wholeheartedly.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 20 2006 11:12:10
 
duende

Posts: 3051
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to Miguel de Maria

Im don´t think the pro guitarist does it except for technical reasons.
Im sure Tomatito has played scales up and donw the neck when he was 15-16 or something But once you got it don´t you don´t need to do scale to know where they are.

For example I work on scales to get a better picado not because i need to know where they are on the guitar. I have already done that a million times.

Im sure they do learn scales if they are going to play over some werid harmony or something. Or if they´re just looking for something new. or what ever..

GOD DAMN IT IM HUNGRY! I feel like playing not making food

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 20 2006 11:25:13
 
cneberg

Posts: 257
Joined: Apr. 20 2006
From: Sončno polje pri Večnosti

RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:


Disclaimer: I don't recommend blasting away at scales unless you've been playing them slowly and surely with full relaxation for many years. This statement has not been evaluated by the Surgeon General.


And then......



You can do this....
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 20 2006 11:49:26
 
seanm

 

Posts: 169
Joined: Apr. 5 2005
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to Miguel de Maria

I had a lesson with an player residing in Spain recently (a classical teacher who teaches at an academy in Spain and interacts with a lot of flamencos). She showed me two exercises that she had me do a couple of time during my lesson and then said "now try your scale" OMG. What a difference. Here they are. I HIGHLY recommend these if you don't already do them.

1) Backward rasqueados scales for finger return strength

Play a basica scale in first position but play it slooooowwwwly using the back of your nails like ras. downstokes (do NOT lock the fingers into the thumb for this one ... so use rasqueados 'free stroke' .. did I just coin that term ;) ) alternating all combinations in odd groupings (so for two fingers do triplets, for three fingers do sixteeths). For instance, I M I (on note one of the scale), M I M (on note two), etc up and back. Very controlled, even, loud and well accented triplets. If your forearm does not burn after 30 seconds you don't need the exercise, or you aren't doing it right. Do this for M A M, A M A and A M I A, M I A M, I A M I, etc. Be carefully not to hurt yourself, seriously. You should find that after a minute of that your fingers are drawn back to the strings like magnets when you play scales.

2) Extreme slow scales with extremely dotted rhytms. I always played my dotted scales when practicing too much like a simple dotted scale. She suggested something like a quadruple dotted whole note and a 64th. This forces you to think before the next 2 note sequence and allows you to relax between them. Also, do it with the first of the two notes being the fast one (so the reverse of the above).

These have improved my scales 10 times almost immediately because my fingers where fast ... but just not co-ordinated.

Sean
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 20 2006 14:20:06
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3524
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to Miguel de Maria

Sean,
what is this classical guitar crap you're bringing in here! Flamencos already know how to play rasgueados! Just kidding...those are good suggestions. Here is some stuff from CGer Richard Spross:

"Many moons ago I promised "Chris" that I would provide him and all with
my six "super secret' exercises.


Here they are.


1. Normal vigorous reststroke.


2 Forward damping. Described as: a quick return and damp of the string
targeting the starting point beneath the nail.


3. Reverse reststroke. In which the finger is placed between the strings
and the string below, ( toward the floor ) is set into motion by pushing
against the back of the finger.


4. Reverse damping. Sliding the string against the back of the nail
until it slips below the nail and damps by coming to rest on the
underside of the juncture of the nail and finger tip.


5. Reverse free stroke. To loosen the fingers up from all the previous
hard work.


6. Normal freestroke. The result of which is to play with the least
amount of motion in either direction.


These six strategies can be employed with arpeggios, scales and tremolo.
Possibly even with harmonic intervals.


One can add rhythms into the mix as well.


May this help everyone to who wish to try these advance their guitar
playing to new levels of success and accomplishment.


Regards,
Richard Spross "

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Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 20 2006 14:35:17
 
Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
 

RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to seanm

Sean, help me out here. I read music and know my theory but I have never come across any 'extremely dotted rhythms'??

If a note value is dotted to raise its time value by half, fair enough, but beyond that we use other note values/rests, surely?

A quadruple-dotted whole note??

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Spanish Guitarist in Devon, Cornwall and Somerset
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 20 2006 14:38:16
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3524
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to Miguel de Maria

Jon,
I don't recall disagreeing with you, I think the point was you said you can't practice the 2nd gear. I remember that I and also gerundino disagreed. You said practicing walking doesn't help running, but as gerundino pointed out, practicing running slow does. Aha! Take that! :)

As far as scales, I'll have to admit that I'm actually talking about scalar flamenco runs. Things like those pesky runs in Sabicas' Soleares and Panaderos Flamencos, etc.

However, I do also practice scales around the fingerboard at times, adn from CG etudes such as Aguado and Sor. Also, I think practicing ascending scales is very important. You'll feel a strange floating feeling above the sixth strings that I think it's important to become familiar with. It seems to me that it helps balance and overall mobility, too. And as HEnrik said, you can't really know the fingerboard without having traversed it up and down many times.

I would be surprised to hear Vicente, PDL and Tomatito did not practice scale shapes in every conceivable form. I don't buy the "ignorant genius" thesis.

It's funny how useless picado is in general, but how important a lot of us take it. I have to be honest, it's my favorite technique. Once I can rip fast picados at will, I think part of me wil rest easy and have that self satisfaction! IT's just such a long journey. Once I can play as well as Grisha at 9 years, I know I will have hit the big time. :)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 20 2006 14:42:41
 
Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
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RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
Jon,
I don't recall disagreeing with you, I think the point was you said you can't practice the 2nd gear.


Oi don't misquote me! I have always said you can practice the 2nd gear, albeit in shorter chunks (the speed bursts concept).

Slow practice, fast practice - both important, each trains a different aspect of the technique.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 20 2006 14:57:01
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3524
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to Miguel de Maria

Jon,
I think he means instead of a dotted eighth note and sixteenth, a double dotted eighth note and 32nd.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 20 2006 15:14:51
 
seanm

 

Posts: 169
Joined: Apr. 5 2005
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to Miguel de Maria

Hi Jon,

This is what I meant

whole note = whole note
dotted half + quarter note = whole note
double dotted half + eight note = whole note
triple dotted half + sixteenth note = whole note
quadruple dotted half + thirty second note = whole note
quintuple dotted half + 64th note = whole note

I guess it the last one to be more accurate in what I posted previously. Sure you could indicate this with ties but this seemed the best to explain the concept I was after. Not playing a lilting dotted scale but rather focusing on the really quick movements.

Hey Miguel,

This is not a rasqueados exercise. I've been playing ras for 7 years but this was killer. It's a controlled alternation and is not intended to improve your down stroke evenness. It's for picado. So its not (for IM) I down M down , I down M down, etc ... its (I plays down M goes up), (M plays down I goes up), (I plays down M goes up) in triplets for example. Try what I wrote and then tell me if it useless or not. Anyway, maybe its just me and I suck at this stuff but I found it very helpful. Hopefully I can elevate my playing to a higher level and not feel the need to discuss technical stuff :)

Sean
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 20 2006 15:25:21
 
Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
 

RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to seanm

quote:

ORIGINAL: seanm
I guess it the last one to be more accurate in what I posted previously. Sure you could indicate this with ties but this seemed the best to explain the concept I was after.


Ah right, I think I see what you mean now. Scott Tenant recommends practicing scales in different rhythms too. Thanks.

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Spanish Guitarist in Devon, Cornwall and Somerset
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 20 2006 15:44:16
 
seanm

 

Posts: 169
Joined: Apr. 5 2005
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to Miguel de Maria

Hey,

I was looking up "quadruple dotted" to make sure I wasn't insane (did my degree was years ago :) ) and found this right away. It explains the exercise much better than I (BTW, it is from a clarinet forum who have finger coordination issues of their own to deal with)

quote:

How to Smooth Out the Fast Passages

The problem you are having with the fast passages is that sometimes moving from one note to the next involves just 1 finger (say, low C to low D), and sometimes it involves many fingers in contrary motion (as in going over the break). The more complex movements tend to take more time, and it's also hard to keep them as clean as the easy ones.

Therefore, you need to single out the hard finger movements and clean them up. As you have found, you do *not* achieve this by just running through a passage over and over. The following method isolates each interval and lets you work on it individually.

Beginning *very* slowly, play the passage in pairs of quadruple-dotted 16ths and 128ths, repeating each pair until you have it clean and snappy. At the beginning, play just the first note; stop and take a small breath; then "snap" from the second to the third notes as quickly as possible, repeating until it is clean; stop and take a small breath; then "snap" from the 4th to the 5th note, and so on. Then leave out the breaths and work up gradually to close to performance tempo. Notice that you are working on the transition between notes 2 and 3, then 4 and 5 and so on.

Then begin again with a 128th followed by a quadruple-dotted 16th. This isolates the transitions you skipped, between notes 1 and 2, 3 and 4, and so on.

Work up both versions slurred and tongued.

When you finish, you will have isolated and cleaned up the transition between each note and the next. Then, go back to straight 16ths, which will be almost magically smooth.

(A tough but effective way to perfect your technique is to work this exercise through all the scales, chords and other patterns in Part 3 of the Baermann method. It's a big mountain to climb, but all professionals have done it.)


Sean
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 20 2006 15:45:48
 
Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
 

RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to seanm

Yeah, that's pretty much the same concept Scott discusses in Pumping Nylon.

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Spanish Guitarist in Devon, Cornwall and Somerset
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 20 2006 15:52:51
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3524
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to seanm

quote:

ORIGINAL: seanm

Hi Jon,
Try what I wrote and then tell me if it useless or not. Anyway, maybe its just me and I suck at this stuff but I found it very helpful.
Sean

Sean, come on I was just joking. I am going to try it and I bet it'll help a lot. I am always happy to read your posts as they're some of the higher quality ones on this forum.

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Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 20 2006 15:57:08
 
seanm

 

Posts: 169
Joined: Apr. 5 2005
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to Miguel de Maria

Sorry Miquel,

I got a little sensative. You know you throw in your two cents and then you get called on some cursory detail. Thanks for saying that. I am truly interested whether you find this useful or not because maybe it is just a weakness in my own playing but I'd like to here if you find it useful.

Sean
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 20 2006 16:08:13
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3524
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to Miguel de Maria

Sean,
I tried it and it didn't make my forearms burn. I could feel a little twinge in my m finger, which was injured all last year.

However, I think that it does help discipline the fingers to stay close to the strings. It's a keeper!

I would like to hear other people's impressions. I'm going to give it a run for a few weeks and see what happens.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 20 2006 21:30:51
 
JasonM

Posts: 1565
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

There is a spot, let's call it a singularity, where my technique is just a shambles! Scott Tennant talked about this in his book, too.

Disclaimer: I don't recommend blasting away at scales unless you've been playing them slowly and surely with full relaxation for many years. This statement has not been evaluated by the Surgeon General.


Didn't Scott Tenant also say that according to quantum physics, there is a slight probability that you could play at 10^23 bpm?

Sorry, couldn't resist
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 20 2006 23:18:31
 
Miguel de Maria

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Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to Miguel de Maria

I think I'm already past the event horizon for that one...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 20 2006 23:28:06
 
seanm

 

Posts: 169
Joined: Apr. 5 2005
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to Miguel de Maria

I was doing this exercise again this morning and noticed another way to explain it for anyone trying it. It not like a ras. but rather like doing a picado backwards. So your hand position should be just like picado with the thumb on the bass side tap plate when playing the bass strings and the whole hand moving down as you move to the trebles (with your thumb on the 6th string in the end). If you do it with the picado position in mind, your hand should look quite open (in the shape of a C ... again just like doing picado) and play with strong, deliberate down stroke flicks.


Sean
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 21 2006 14:21:22
 
cneberg

Posts: 257
Joined: Apr. 20 2006
From: Sončno polje pri Večnosti

RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to JasonM

quote:

Didn't Scott Tenant also say that according to quantum physics, there is a slight probability that you could play at 10^23 bpm?


According to quantum physics, there is also a slight probability for a man to walk through the wall - ghost like....
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 21 2006 14:57:44
 
seanm

 

Posts: 169
Joined: Apr. 5 2005
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to Miguel de Maria

Well ... if you think about it (as, sadly, I have) ...

If, in an I M scale, you define the speed at which 'I' can play a note (i.e. the time it takes 'I' to play through the string once it is prepared and the time it takes the guitar to sounds the note) as 'PluckTime'.

Now define the time it takes to return the 'M' finger to a prepared position as PrepareTime.

Now imagine that you can return 'M' to the string so that it is prepared to play in the same time as it takes to play 'I'. Therefore, PluckTime= PrepareTime.

Then, theoretically, you should be able to play scale at the speed in which it takes you to play 'I' from one side of the string to another (which is very very fast).

The problem most have it that most player's PrepareTime is much longer than their PluckTime so your maximum speed is more like

Max = PluckSpeed + (PrepareSpeed - PluckSpeed) = PrepareSpeed.

Man, what a geek I am sometimes ...

Sean
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 21 2006 15:16:29
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