Question about string tension and influences on guitar

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XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

Question about string tension and in...

Maybe its a dumb question for the experts, or even a hypothetical one. But since I use hard tension strings, I fear, the guitar top can "break in" towards the soundhole, due to the pressure the fingerboard effects on the guitar body. I hope you know what I mean, maybe there is a more advanced expression for it.
The point is the strings a reversed on the fingerboard, since I am lefthanded, and I know that guitar tops have those little pieces of wood, that should enforce the top against the pressure. But I dont know if they are placed symmetrical on my guitar.

I mean, if somethings happens to the guitar then I am "FUBAR" coz I dont have the money for another (comparable!!!) guitar.

So how would you estimate the "risk"?

Ps: It is a brandless guitar, but very good. From 1976, what scares me also a bit. It has a very long scale and a quite broad fingerboard.

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 4 2006 0:12:29

Guest

RE: Question about string tension an... (in reply to XXX)

Take it easy.

Hard tension strings shouldnt damage your guitar and the fact that you use it vesa-versa because you are lefthanded doesn´t change that. The treble strings have equally high tension as the basses.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 4 2006 7:24:14

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Question about string tension an... (in reply to XXX)

Yes, Anders will definetely know that. So I dont disagree.

But you should not tune your guitar in open E or other tunes where you have to tune the strings up.

I have a question:
Hey, Im left handed as you. Why do you play in unusual direction? I never thought on learning that coz for playing the guitar you allways use both hands. And they both have the same importance..so its not important to learn in in the other direction, coz in the end you use both.. Did you try to play in normal position in past? Maybe Im wrong and could be much better if I would play with a lefthanded guitar..^^ I hope not...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 4 2006 7:46:26

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Question about string tension an... (in reply to XXX)

Ok that makes me relax, thx Anders!

@Doit: I remember having posted about this andhere it is.

When I had the first guitar in my hands it was my cousin's and of course righthanded. I remember playing "come as you are" in a "lefty" way. Its just easier. I mean, only because you do something with both hands, it doesnt mean that right and left are exchangeable. That would be only the case, if r and l would do exactly the same motions, and even then, I think most people have a "favorite" hand, which can change from motion to motion too. I prefer to cut with right for example. Maybe its the same thing for you, just with the guitar.

But its hard to find out because you already adapted to righthand playing. You would have had to practise long time with a lefthanded guitar to be able to say something. I dont know how you started on guitar, whether you had the opportunity and time, to check if your getting better away lefthanded. Because I can imagine most kids or beginners, can be influenced by the environment in a bad way that they would have to do it righthanded. So due to the pressure, not because it is easier for them to play righthanded they start learning it. You have to check both to be sure. Hehe and yes, there are also some righthanded that play left, because it works better for them

Its really something between you and your instrument. Theres nothing wrong playing lefthanded. There are disadvantages, but those have nothing to do with the lefthandedness itself. They are more a problem of economical and social reasons (acceptance)

But the most important reason why I play lefthanded is (of course) because I am the re-incarnation of Hendrix, MCCartney and Kurt Cobain in one person!

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 4 2006 12:20:52

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Question about string tension an... (in reply to XXX)

Im a lefty. But i play the "normal way." Never even wanted to put the guitar in the "wrong" direction.

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 5 2006 7:21:28

yoyocint

Posts: 3
Joined: Jul. 3 2006

RE: Question about string tension an... (in reply to XXX)

I hate to disagree with Anders, but I will.

Using hard or ultrahard tension strings can damage the guitar and a guitarrist's arm.

I have read some of Romanillos writting on this topic.

A guitar's top is a vibrating plate. Its efficiency depends on its mass/stiffness/bracing applied, among others.

A guitar with a more mass, higher stiffness and heavy bracing applied to it, will require more energy to get excited and produce sound compared to one with less mass, less stiffness and lighter bracing applied.

The use of high or ultra high tenssion came to vogue in large part due to the popularization of the Ramirez Style of construction ( long scale, stiff, heavy top and heavy bracing) which require higher tension strings to withstand the hard attack ( i.e. Segovia) and produce loud sound with not buzzing.

Lighter construction guitars with regular 650mm or shorter scales ( Granada style) can be excited to produce loud volume with less energy applied to the top, also due to the shorter scales are less prone to buzz. However, the lighter less braced top construction ( as flamenco guitars are constructed) also mean that the top is more suceptible to deformation due to string pull. ( I have seen this) Thus as a matter of instrument integrity I would not recomend hard tensiono to be used in light constructed guitars.

Pertaining to hurting a player's arm. The use of higher tension strings means that the hand that presess the strings to the frets has to press harder. If a player practicess for prolonged hours that excess of tension in the forearm muscles can lead to tendonitis in the elbow end of the muscle. ( I have also seen this hapen to classical guitarrists whi use hard tension strings)

So depending on the construction of the guitar the use of hard tension strings is not needed, not recomendable, can damage the instrument in the long run and can cause permanent damage to the player.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 6 2006 1:31:02

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Question about string tension an... (in reply to XXX)

Thats interesting.

Some years ago Tomatito was in one of the big cities in my area. He gave a guitarworkshop. He used only hard tension strings on his guitar.
During the workshop one of his strings broke and he changed it. Coz of that I know the tension which he likes.
After the workshop all guitarrists wanted to have a piece of his broken string.haha.. At the end they cut it into some pieces and everybody got one.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 6 2006 9:08:19

yoyocint

Posts: 3
Joined: Jul. 3 2006

RE: Question about string tension an... (in reply to XXX)

I know that many flamenco guitarrists, like Tomatito, like hard tension strings because it can be attacked harder on their picado. That does not mean that the guitar top would not suffer or that an average person's arm would not suffer either. But, then each guitar and each individual is different.

Regards

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 6 2006 10:34:21

cneberg

Posts: 257
Joined: Apr. 20 2006
From: Sončno polje pri Večnosti

RE: Question about string tension an... (in reply to XXX)

I think most top-notch guitarists of any genre prefer hard tension strings.

On the other hand, Someone once said to me, that Amigo uses rather light tension strings. But I doubt.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 6 2006 12:10:42

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Question about string tension an... (in reply to Doitsujin)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doitsujin

During the workshop one of his strings broke and he changed it. Coz of that I know the tension which he likes.
After the workshop all guitarrists wanted to have a piece of his broken string.haha.. At the end they cut it into some pieces and everybody got one.

HAHAHHAH... thats comedy! Did Tomatito say smth about it? Didnt he find it strange?
LOL So much adult groupies around one!

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 6 2006 12:39:58

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Question about string tension an... (in reply to XXX)

I dont know.. I think he didnt know that, coz they waited with the fight for the old string after he left .... I wasnt there, so I dont know. But I saw the video of this workshop. It was in the time when he played la ardila allways. He also showed some new falsetas for la ardila which he didnt record. I think he would have laughed much about that..

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 6 2006 13:51:46

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Question about string tension an... (in reply to XXX)

I heard that Manuel Barrueco uses normal tension strings. He is a top notch classical guitarist.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 6 2006 14:35:48

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to XXX)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 7 2006 14:02:36

yoyocint

Posts: 3
Joined: Jul. 3 2006

RE: Question about string tension an... (in reply to XXX)

Without knowing specifics, I would tend to give credit to your statement. Many of the flamenco techniques are harder to execute correctly with higher tension strings.

Even if an individual is supernatural player everyone, even professional want easier playing instrument not one that constitutes a barrier to the execution.

A friend of mine participated in a Master Class with Pepe Romero. After my friend played Romero was interested in his instrument due to the sound quality and volume. However after trying it, he expressed that the sound was outstanding but the instrument setup impaired playing with speed.

Yoyo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 7 2006 15:43:20

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Question about string tension an... (in reply to yoyocint)

i always used "HighTension" or "Extra High" Never affected anything.
For the moment i use mediums since thats what Anders puts on his guitars and they are still alive after over a month.

Order Anders Guitars NOW.

AT http://www.eliassonguitars.com/

..he doesn´t pay me to do this

Best guitar i ever played/tryed

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 7 2006 16:47:10

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Question about string tension an... (in reply to XXX)

Henrik,
I find it interesting that the tension strings doesn't matter to you. To me, the difference in feel between a normal and high is very noticeable, and extra high even more so. I can play picado on the e string with normal very easily, but have to use a lot more muscle to get through with extra high.

A rasgueado on a normal tension string feels soft like rubber bands, but on the high tension it is a lot more tighter.

But you say you don't notice any of this? Maybe you just have big Viking hands!?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 7 2006 16:50:22

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Question about string tension an... (in reply to XXX)

For me too.
If I use hard tension. Its much harder for me to get a loud tone out of the guitar. f.e. during arpegios. Its much easyer on low tension strings. With picado the same. Its much easyer for me to play picado on lower tension coz it doesnt breaks me to much down.
And the second point is, that my nails are very weak. Also with protection, the nails get damage "under" the protection coz of picado..
The nails are the main reason why I play low tension strings.

P.S. I heared how Ron played the fandangos entrada on his Anders guitar. I have to say that is sounded very very nice. I would be happy to be able to test an Anders guitar. But here in germany is no shop who offers his guitars.. so sad.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 7 2006 17:22:48

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Question about string tension an... (in reply to duende)

Hi Henrik,
Anders told me I was out of date in my string choice, (I was using Savarez High Tension..Red Card) and he shipped the guitar with D'Addarro EJ45C Normal Tension Strings.
I was very impressed by their long life!
This alone has saved me a lot of money as I didn't get much time out of the Savarez ones at all.
This time when I reordered, I decided on a whim to try the High Tension ones in this range and I must say I am much happier about the "feel".
It might just be a few grams difference in string displacement force, but it definitely feels a lot more "right" to me.
The guitar (to me) sounds a bit more "lively" too.
Over the last year I could definitely hear a slow change in the sound of the guitar towards deeper, more complex tones and I find that the High Tensions just balance that out to get a nice, warm but "brittle" sound.
It's difficult to hear on my uploads as I have a terrible recording setup, not so much the equipment, but the room (which is my workshop) which is very "boxy" with reflective walls.
But if you hear the guitar "live", it has lots of nice, subtle overtones.. like the myriad of flavours and spices you get in Indian cuisine.

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 7 2006 20:17:45

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Question about string tension an... (in reply to yoyocint)

Hi Yoyocint,

"Torres" constructed guitars, and "Granada" ( Ferrer) constructed guitars say more about the sice of the body than the scale.

Hard strings are mostly used in flamenco, because you can put the strings lower than.

It is questionable if it is easier for the hand to play with hard tension, and little lower, or mediumtension and a little higher.

Also in my opinion, it is easier to do alzapua, rasq, picado on hard strings, but that is maybe because I am used to it.

A little deformation behind the bridge is normal.

I have played on two 70ties Gerundino's, I could see the braces through the soundboard, they surface behind the bridge looked like the ocean, but they sounded like hell!

If you get trouble with the hand, try to press the strings down less hard.
If you have a normal, good guitar, there is nearly no force nececary to press the strings down to make a tone.

Welcome to the foro!

Peter

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 7 2006 20:29:52

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Question about string tension an... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Maestro Miguel.

The diffrence i feel in High tension is.

Higher volume with Higher tension.
Better sound for me. in general.

With mediums i do however get a better rasgueado sound.

But i never felt that it´s harder to do anything with High tension.
More tension less flappy flapp.

Im thinking maybe i should stick to mediums if it saves my hands in the long run.
Next time im changing string i will try medium high from Luthier. The Pdl strings.
Luthier 30 i belive the name is. i also got some Luthier 20.

Have i told you have great Anders guitar is?

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 7 2006 20:31:41

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Question about string tension an... (in reply to XXX)

Henrik,
did you do a full-length guitar review on it? If not, maybe you could do that. It would be cool.

I wonder if there's something very different about the way we do things. In my history I keep having injuries and also am very sensitive to minor things like action, string tension, and different guitars. My current guitar is a very sweet one, the easiest guitar to play I have had. If I try to play someone else's guitar I'm nothing! I need to try to figure out if there is a way to have a stronger technique.

I do think that high tension strings must put more strain on the body, though. It seems to me that if you want to use normal tension, you should have a very lightly built guitar, with a very thin top and thin sides. It would seem that a high tension string would match a sturdier guitar. Incidentally, my Tezanos Perez is extremely heavy, like a classical (braz. rosewood), and I don't feel normal tension strings would work.

I want to get one of those blancas that feels like a ukelele but roars with medium tension strings! And has a low action and great trebles. Can you make one of those Anders?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 7 2006 22:03:42

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Question about string tension an... (in reply to XXX)

Here's my 2 cents.

Medium tensions will generaly have more snap, and i think thats
why you will see alot of flamenco players using them.

(i use them, so does Ricardo)

But i think string tension choice has much to do with how heavy
your hands are.

Some players simply have strong, heavy hands. Mediums get too
thwappy for them, so they turn to heavier gauge strings.
TK

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 7 2006 23:34:57

Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: Question about string tension an... (in reply to gerundino63)

quote:

Original Poster: gerundino63

Hard strings are mostly used in flamenco, because you can put the strings lower than.

I've been watching this thread with interest and Gerundino's point is interesting to me as recently we were talking about Sabicas' strings appearing to be low tension.

Can you have a lower action with less chance of buzz with higher tension strings?

Other than protecting your fingers nails, why is it that some players would choose low tension strings?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 8 2006 1:30:40

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Question about string tension an... (in reply to Exitao)

Hi Exitao,

As far as I know, most flamenco guitar players like it as low as possible, and high tension strings can be put lower than.
Also they play at the bridge so it is possible to have it even lower.

You have to "know" your guitiar than very good, so you can "play"with the buzzing. avoid it if you do not want it, use it if you want.

ofcource everybody have his favour!

Peter

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 8 2006 8:32:26

Guest

RE: Question about string tension an... (in reply to XXX)

Modern professional flamenco players use all kinds of tension. Some use Low tension, because it makes the left hand easyer (pull offs and ons). Some use high tension because you can hit them harder and you get a more controlled feedback.
Some like medium and go closer to the bridge when they want more tension. I´m like that myself.
My guitars are build to work with hard tension, and the difference in a set of med. and hard tension strings is actually very small if you compare it in kilos. Take a look at the Daddario website, they have a page where you can compare the kilo tension in strings.
Strings are harder tension nowadays than 30 years ago. Savaraz carte rosa is called hard tension, but they feel more or less like a modern set of mediums.

Nice playing

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 8 2006 16:18:29

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Question about string tension an... (in reply to gerundino63)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gerundino63
A little deformation behind the bridge is normal.

I just noticed it on my guitar. I dont know if this happened before the guitar was mine, but i think i'll tune the strings down when i dont play the guitar.

I think Todd might be right regarding the weight, though i have "medium" hands. On the trebles the tension is imo not that important, but on the bass strings i hear a significant difference in sound. I sounds so "tight" on picados and rasg. And to me its easier to keep up with the volume of the other guitarrists in dance class. Last but not least medium tension have too much buzzing on my guitar.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2006 22:43:34

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Question about string tension an... (in reply to XXX)

Hi Deniz, I am also lefthanded and have used hard to extra hard tension strings. I now prefer medium but I have never had any damaged done to any of my guitars due to the hard tension strings. Well made guitars are very....well made.

If you want to see how the inside of your guitar is braced, take it into a dark room with no windows, or if it has a window, at night, get a small flashlight, like one of those mimi maglites, stick it in the soundhole and turn off the room lights. You can see everything pretty clearly.

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Tom Núñez
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 18 2006 0:25:52