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Building a Flamenco Guitar - 5
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Ramón
Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca
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Building a Flamenco Guitar - 5
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Learned something new today...You know those blueprints of the original I made? Well, I found out they're CLOSE - but not exact! Good to work on top of, directions, a look back for a mental pic, but take ALL MEASUREMENTS from the original. I laid my clear plastic template, complete with little punch marks for braces, fans, etc., and they didn't line up anymore?? Huh???? Then I laid the template on the original, and it was spot-on. Today I set all my lines (faintly) with a pencil, onto the the back of the top (soundboard), making a small and shallow centerpunch hole on-center. Braces and fans are cut (almost) to size and thickness, as well as the top (tentalones?) - the little stiffeners that lie between the fans at the back). Nothing shaped, but the pics shows the Reyes pattern. Also cut the soundhole support. The soundhole cutter is cool. You drill a 1/4" hole in the center of your soundhole, then use a jig with a razor that has a 1/4" shaft it rotates around. The blade is REALLY sharp, but cuts soooo clean and nice. I was like; "I DID THAT!". Next I routed the top to accept the rosette. I searched and searched for a Reyes-style rosette, but gave up and used the Russian ros' I got , which is quite striking, with a Moorish style pattern. Practiced routing on a throw-away board. Glad I did. Euro Spruce, Master Grade, is $150, plus time and effort the glue and sand. The practice helped, and (my mantra - patience), also went s-l-o-w-l-y to cut the circle; both in depth of cut and working outward, hair-cut by hair-cut, to each of the edges, and the results were an almost perfect fit, the only slight chip I got was where the fingerboard covers, as Bob Hein told me to start where "it don't matter so much". Good advice. Got the cuts more and more perfect with each pass. The rosette sits in snug, no distortion, not pinched, just right. It's slow going, but it just takes the time it takes. Our humidity is around 90% right now, with temps only about 65 (18c), so tomorrow I'll cut the soundhole and read (and play Bob's guitars!), but I'm almost to the point where I have to glue the soundboard, and then start locking up the box to progress, so I need a sunny day! The pic is the neck and fretboard (fretb' isn't glued, just sitting), and my bracing pattern. The extra braces are for the back. Thanks for everyone's feedback, input, support, etc.!
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Date May 13 2006 2:43:36
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Ramón
Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca
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RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 5.1 (in reply to Ramón)
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ARGHHHH!!! Man...little mistakes. The fan bracing for the Reyes is 7 fans, and most are all different widths, heights, and many have high-to-low tapers, some slanting forward and one back!!! I cut one set, and realized I was too 'low' to get the proper high-to-low slope......One set down... Anyone want some German Spruce popsickle sticks? Cut another set yesterday, and got them almost to EXACT measurements and tapers (within hundreds of an inch). I was sooo pleased. Then planed the edges to get the little triangular shape. Bob's girlfriend stopped by, so they took off, and The Fearless Flyer worked alone. Ooops. As I finished THE LAST BRACE, I looked at a set Bob had set aside (why I didn't look earlier is a mystery) for a Barbero flamenco, and realized the angle is NOT cut from center-top to the bottom edge, but leaves a slight 'flat' area from the bottom up the side a bit, which is then rounded, so there is a bit more 'meat' lower than I thought. Bob showed me on the plan how it looks, but some lines 'cross' there, and the exact shape is somewhat hidden - until someone points it out.... So another 4 hours and I ended up with "mixing sticks", as Bob commented... Frustrating.....
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Date May 15 2006 15:49:51
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RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 5 (in reply to Ramón)
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Keep it up Ramón!!!! But why don´t you have a dehumidifer in the taller? In Cádiz, depending on the wind from the sea or from the land, the humidity can swing from 90% to 30% overnight. So we run the machine every day in the taller and can keep the humidity constant. You would not believe how much water the machine collects. Have a look at http://guitarra.artelinkado.com/foros/forumdisplay.php?f=17 Suerte Sean
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Date May 15 2006 16:02:20
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Ramón
Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca
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RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 5 (in reply to Ramón)
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Arghhh...Not stopping. Just like 8 hours of work to make 'mixing sticks' - but VERY straight-grained mixing sticks! We generally don't have the humidity factor to deal with so much, as we run 40% each most days, but in late Spring, early summer, we get 'June Gloom' is So Cal, which is a low fog-ish ceiling, no sun, and humidity goes way up. Cool, but humid. So we wait. It's over, now. Burns off about 11am, and drops to the 40's % area. So I WAS going to glue, but it's back to the saws, sanders, and planers... Luckily, it's small, and have plently of wood, but do to it 3 TIMES is frustrating.... Finish date? hahahahaha... At this rate, 2011 looks like a date to shoot for.... Thanks for the encouragement...Hey Samwise. You get TABS for that little vid' piece yet? If you do, I'd like them too! Soo...Practiced this morning, going surfing now, and work on my guitar later (no work today). (the pic is a kind-of-how-it-will-look idea)
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Date May 15 2006 16:23:11
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Ramón
Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca
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RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 5 (in reply to Ramón)
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It's doing okay, but realistically, it's like 1/10th the way there....There is soooo much still to do, but That pic? I just kind of threw the parts together to get an idea of what my rosette would look like against the ebony, spruce, etc., when I was trying to decide whether to use that one or make one. Kind of stayed with a more traditional Spanish feel, and I'm now glad I did. I think it will look pretty nice when it's done (now lets just hope it PLAYS like a real guitar! Scared I'll end up with a 'plinker'...) Would love to have found a Reyes style rosette, but no luck. Finish date? Hmmmm...Maybe like August? If I could just go do that everyday, but.... Grabbed that TAB (thanks for the link)... Going to sit with it tonight and checkit out. R
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Date May 15 2006 18:56:14
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RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 5 (in reply to Ramón)
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Looks good Tom The "cut off´s" of the braces are very short. Does the plan indicate that. I´ve seen a couple of photos of Reyes soundboards, and the "cut offs" were a lot longer. How thick and wide are the braces? Your design will most probably produce quite a lot of sustain and harmonics. (That´s not negative or positive) Just some thoughts. So I can see that it´s modern now to build Reyes.
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Date May 19 2006 10:44:47
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Ramón
Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca
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RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 5 (in reply to Ramón)
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In talking with Tom B, and looking over the plans with Bob Hein, here, it looks like Reyes lets the bases run with a bit less bracing, and increases the stiffness on the treble side to gain a bit more from the trebles. Whether I'll acheive this on MY first guitar will be interesting to see, but I would love a review from you, Tom, on how your's turns out. Are you building full-time, or is this like mine; "Here and there", whenever possible? I have been thinking and thinking about my solera shape (the arc and curves of the top). I think I'm going to rework it a bit before I glue. PS... Anders and Tom. Do you guys use hide-glue for the top? Entire construction? Not at all? Just curious.... I'm going to do the entire top in hide glue, the rest in yellow wood workers. R
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Date May 19 2006 14:22:22
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Ramón
Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca
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RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 5 (in reply to Ramón)
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I have a peghead blanca Jose Rodriguez, who was a disciple of Miguel, and came to own Miguel's tools. My neighbor owns 5 Miguel Rodriguez classicals (he's a concert classical guitarist), and he says that my 'Jose' feels very much like a 'Miguel' flamenco; very dry, very punchy, LOTS of volume and sustain, but quite even across...(I love this thing)! I looked inside, and it uses a rather similar bracing pattern, and the curves on the top are VERY slight, the body is quite even, and only a slight side-to-side curve on the back. Seems a lot what Tom B describes, so I'm using this for visual clues.... And if my creation comes out half as good as my Rodriguez, I'll have died and gone to heaven...Or Sevilla...! R
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Date May 20 2006 5:34:38
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Ramón
Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca
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RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 5 (in reply to Ramón)
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Thanks for the tip on fish glue! I mentioned it to Bob, and he said; "Oh yea! I love that stuff, but my source dried up..." So I'm ordering the big bottle tonight! Finished the solera today... WHATAPAININTHEASS! I made 3 'countours' for the shape of the soundboard... First was junk... The second one went on the solera and got feathered in, and was, like, backwards? Weird...Had to get used to seeing it upside down, you know? Was NOT happy with that one. (I could use Bob's, but he builds off a solera he made at Romanillo's place). So today I cut my third masonite template, and was power sanding and hand sanding, and it is just such a complex curve that I looked at it and said; "There has GOT to be an easier way.." Way too much time, effort, questionable outcome..... So I cut the outside edge of that masonite piece I was shaping that runs along the outline of the guitar, about 1/4" wide, and glued it around the inside edge. This thin little edge was a dream to shape with a rasp and block, and I could sooooo easily control what would be the final shape of the face back there! I then cut the INSIDE edge of my shape template, and tacked that on to the solera around about where it would taper out to nothing; just on the back edge of the bridge and slightly around and up onto the bout. I then took a straight edge plastic squeege, filled the bed with bondo, and screeded the fill into the area. I slid across the top of the 1/4" back edge that I'd glued and shaped, and used the inside area as a guide to 'feather' in the bondo to 'zero'. After that, a hard and soft block, straight-edge scrapers, etc., took down the excess, until I now have a PERFECT shape on the solera to work on, the roll behind the bridge to the back edge is slight, and there is just a nice, very slight roll from edge to edge (but FLAT under the bridge). It looks very much lke my Rodriguez, now, and Bob eyed it and said it looked really nice (finally). So after 3 attempts, I have a solera AND I now know how to do it (if I ever want to punish myself again by building...
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Date May 21 2006 2:46:37
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Armando
Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland
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RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 5 (in reply to Ramón)
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Hi all This is an interesting convesation. I have also in mind to start building on a Reyes model this year. I have found the following statement on the wesite of Tom Blackshear: quote:
A couple of things about the way the fan braces are carved..........This is important for the right hand feel when playing the guitar. Since this is a 7 fan brace style, it is easier to explain the idea behind what Reyes may be trying to accomplish. The outside treble brace is approximately 7/32" wide, with the height being a little over 1/8th" high toward the sound hole and a little under 1/8th high at the bottom; on a long taper. The scallop on all of the struts is about 3/8th" from the tip of each end........The outside bass brace is 5/16th" wide and a little under 1/8th" high toward the sound hole and a little over 1/8th" high at the bottom. Numbering each fan brace from the bass side would be (1). 5/16th" wide, (2). 5/16th" wide, (3). 9/32" wide, (4). 9/32" wide, (5). 9/.32" wide, (6). 1/4" wide, (7). 7/32" wide. There you have the widths of each brace. Now the 5 fan braces inside or different heights but essentially about 1/8" give or take a little on the height...I'll save this information for the plan that will be offered from the GAL. "Guild of American Luthiers.". About one year before the Reyes blueprint became availlable through luth.org i have contacted Tom Blackshear in order to get some more explanations regarding his comments about the Reyes guitar on his website. Unfortunately he wrote me, that he is not at disposal for questions related to this guitar. Dispite of the measurements given on the blueprint the above statements declare that the outer bass and treble braces are different in size. Having in mind that the heights of the braces are only slightly different it seems to me to be unlogic, why the outer bass brace is made wider (7.65mm) than the outer treble brace (5.35mm). This would result in a stiffer brace on the bass side which is vice versus to what most luthiers try to achieve. If these measurements are really correct, then i must say that i havn't got the idea behind the Reyes system. But anyway, I think that it is not only the shaping of the braces that makes up the Reyes sound. There are more factors such as the doming of the top which according to the discription of Tom Blackshear is built in a rather unusual way. He did not answer my question on this issue neither. Nevertheless i have found out, that i will never get close to an original by just copy the measurements of a specific guitar as indicated on a blueprint. This is because i know that each piece of wood is different and has different physical and tonal properties. What i want to achieve is to get a better understanding of what happens if this or that part of the guitar is adjusted. I'm looking forward that the gaitarmaking course with José Romanillos will give me some insight into such issues. Armando
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Date May 22 2006 10:44:55
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Guest
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RE: Building a Flamenco Guitar - 5 (in reply to Ramón)
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I agree, It´s a weird plan and it only confirms what I´ve said before, that it´s not the plan but the builder who makes a good guitar. I´m sure the romanillos will send you on another track, so maybe you wont even build a Reyes. Besides, IMHO, it´s bad practice to change plans every here and there, you loose what is the most important part of building, reference to what you´ve done before. Sigüenza is a nice place. Very much central Spain and far away from Andalucía in all aspects. Enjoy it.
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Date May 22 2006 15:39:10
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