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i'm just a beginner and am in the process of learning and devouring everything i can about flamenco. one of the curious distinctions that was instantly noticeable in the realm of flamenco guitar was the divide between the modern and the traditional flamenco guitarists.
but what are the characteristics of modern vs. traditional? is it the abandoning of some techniques (like long and heavy pulgar runs?), the different tone of the modern guitars, the addition of new song forms or loosening of old ones, the introduction of jazz and non-phrygian phrasing, the use of improvisation, the inclusion of new instruments such as flutes, percussion and basses? or is it all of the above?
and are there any new players on the scene that are solely in the traditional school of thought? or are all new players essentially starting at this broader footing and going from there?
i have been listening to most everyone i can get my hands on but i find myself leaning towards the charm of the traditional players now.
I am no expert but i gues 1 obvious thing is yes the scales and chords used.
There alot more collorations in the scales (the only way i can think of describing it)
the rithm is less, a buleria for example u hardly ever hear a guitarist playing all the strokes on in a 12 beat count they come in here and there in perfect compas.
theres alot more syconpated stuff
more keys and tunings are beeing explored.
more nontraditional instruments are beeing brought in.
many are trying to appeal to a wider audience (eg Vicente) so they use less Flamenco cante, to non flamenco people the cante can be quite risky u either love it or u hate it, so they play it safer with jazzy singhers etc.
the music its less in your face, if you driving in the car u can concetrate on it or it can eaze on in the background.
thats some of the things i can think of right now , i am sure theres more obvious diferences.
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and are there any new players on the scene that are solely in the traditional school of thought? or are all new players essentially starting at this broader footing and going from there?
not really not that i cant think of, a new player this days is expected to be able to do traditional and jazzy (for a lack of a better description). The closest one that is big and has a traditional feel about him in a very very modern way tho is Diego del Morao.
this are just some of my observations , see what others think too
The first impression of most is that modern flamenco is "jazzy". While there are many fusions like that going on nowadays, the actual literal Jazz music is not really something the modern flamenco guitarists are doing. I studied jazz and I don't find anything that is truely jazz based in the modern flamenco (that SOUNDS jazzy to many). In other words, a very advanced jazz guitarist would not have a clue what is going on in one of Tomatito's "jazzy" bulerias. The chords and usage would be new and weird.
I gravitate to the more modern style myself, but still enjoy and play some music by the old masters, such as R. Montoya, Sabicas, Escudero. Gerardo Nunez is one who has very traditional pieces mixed in with very modern pieces on his recordings. (His recordings of Solea, Taranta, solea por bulerias, even Impetu on his newest disc are examples of traditional stuff). In general, the Post PDL generation trys to avoid the old "cliches", at least in the recording studio. (Live flamenco is another matter, which is actually much more important than studio recordings). Moraito is another that mixes it up, but he does so much work for singers, it is easy to describe his playing overall as "traditional". As Florian said, his son can and has played just like his father, but his own personal style is VERY modern.
With the exception of the occasional 2-5-1 progression or 13th chord, most of the harmonic stuff that goes on in modern flamenco was established long ago. Listen to Escudero's "Impetu". There are virtually no new harmonic ideas por medio (in A phrygian) in modern flamenco that were not first explored in that very old piece. (not including modulations:relative, parallel, minor third, etc). Some of the "jazzy" chords that you hear in modern flamenco you can find in that piece somewhere. Also the use of the melodic minor modes (common in jazz, but coincidentally) was already in use by "modern" classical composers like M.de Falla who were a big influence on Escudero, PDL, etc. Modulating parallel or relative (Aphrygian -A minor-Amaj, or to F maj/Dminor) is something that sounds "jazzy" at times in a guitar solo, but is based directly on the cante.
The only "modern" harmonic idea that is pretty standard nowadays is PDL's beloved minor third modulation, that even singers use nowadays. (A phrygian -C phrygian, and back). The idea is not related to jazz at all, but rather related to the way the spanish phrygian scale works. Also if you listen to Brazillian guitar music (bossa nova stuff) you see a lot of the chordal ideas present in modern flamenco. But I don't consider that jazz. Guys like Charlie Byrd made that stuff popular, so lots of people hear bossa nova on the classical guitar and think "jazz" or jazzy chords.
For me as a player the BIGGEST difference between traditional and modern flamenco is SYNCHOPATION in the rhythm. PDL was one of the first to open that door. Listen to the bulerias on Fantasia Flamenca. Playing melodies off the beat really changed flamenco guitar a lot I feel. If you play old Sabicas falsetas, or better yet "Impetu" with lots of synchopation, then there you have "modern" high tech flamenco. Also dynamics plays a big part. Playing soft and sweet in a rhythmic piece, leaving space, or building up the volume at certain points, etc, seem to give a "jazzy" impression too.
The techniques of today are essentially the SAME as back during Montoya's day. But the way the techniques are used is different. No doubt modern flamenco guitarists like to listen to different music and it has a big influence on their personal style. The music that influenced PDL (spanish classical impressionistic stuff, Brazillian Bossa, Jazz, jazz fusion and latin jazz) has influenced his own followers. But a flamenco form has certain rules that define it, and depending on one's taste and understanding, it can be argued whether or not a piece is "flamenco" enough to be called whatever. Is Impetu classical spanish based on flamenco, or is it simply Bulerias? As we learn about the parameters of the flamenco forms, we develop personal taste and draw our own lines. I personally like to listen and learn from old and young players. If he is a flamenco player and he wants it to be called Solea, then it is up to me the listener to understand what makes it a "solea".
The first impression of most is that modern flamenco is "jazzy
was just using that as a way to describe the sound cause i cant think of another 1 word to describe it as opossed to trad and people whould know exactly what i mean.
thank you, florian and ricardo for the great deconstruction. very interesting on the synchopated rhythm being such a big factor. again as a beginner, these subtleties are a little lost on me. and i didn't realize that the dynamics in traditional flamenco guitar playing were so straightforward and unvaried though that makes sense now.
ricardo, can you give me an obvious example of PDL's minor third use? or is that all of his discography except his earliest work? that is very intriguing to me but my weak theory will be a hindrance in appreciating the difference.
and curious that the song forms like rumbas and columbianas aren't necessarily considered modern even if they are departures from the traditional.
thanks again! a lot to think about and a lot to learn!
There is very little I can say on top of Ricardo's analysis.
Florian said awhile ago that the guitar is not so heavy now, leaving a lot of the heavy beats of the compás to the air. That is true... and is very profound when done very well.
I like both modern and traditional myself. Probably my favourite players are the ones who span both. I love a traditional sounding piece spiced up with some nice chords and ideas like a few of the young players do.
On your original question...
I dunno?
What does "progessive" actually mean in music terms?
Is the reason that the band Oasis is so successful, really because they've stood on the shoulders of the Beatles and carried the music forward? Or does some hip swivelling chart topping boy singer/teen idol make Elvis's or Buddy Holly's music "old hat" and something to be confined to history and the dustbin?
Ron, one of the fallacies we moderns often have is that change is usually for the better. Modern medicine, modern clothes, modern music, modern thought. In many ways it can be demonstrably better, in many ways not. "Progressive" is a value-laden term that can lead us astray if used unjudiciously...
i was using the term "modern" to mean current. "progressive" when used to describe music always conjurs up jazz, jazz fusion and electronica in my mind. i always thought progressive (when applied to music) meant pushing forward, dealing with breaking down boundaries/barriers and making new forms. progress maybe for the sake of progress.
i certainly wouldn't include oasis in the progressive camp.
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ORIGINAL: Ron.M
Florian said awhile ago that the guitar is not so heavy now, leaving a lot of the heavy beats of the compás to the air. That is true... and is very profound when done very well.
What drew me to flamenco was awlays that deep sound. How a single downstroke on a certain chord could sound so flamenco and make my hairs stand on end. Although I like modern flamenco, I prefer the more traditional sound.
I've been trying to educate myself to recognise the old vs the new.
With respect to the gent who says that Flamenco hasn't changed because of technique the equipment but my ears tell me different.
It seems to me that the older flamenco is more simple and 'folksy.' However when you listen to Sabicas you can hear genius in the 'simplicity.' And it seems to ring more true or honest and has a stronger impact. But I hear tones and notes a little less clearly. The finger picking sounded less precise.
Yet now, I hear modern players with very clean tone, PDL has the sweetest sound. However they seem to lose out on the simpler elegance that carried a special pathos. There seems to be an influence of formal theory on composition now where people feel compelled to make things complex or use 'tricks' from other guitar styles or arts in general (e.g. use of blank space). But as Flamenco spreads through the world, it can't help but be changed by the people it is changing. I can hear elements of Latin American folk music in some Flamenco (and vice versa too, but you can kinda guess which is which). Some of the modern fusions can be delightful, but they don't make your hair stand on end.
I think certain attitudes have changed too. Lately I've been obsessed with seguiriyas. My reading informs me that seguiriyas started as songs, laments. Probably a rhythmic wailing of paid mourners. Older (style) seguiriyas still carry a sound of sadness, loss and lamentation. Yet now, some are songs of love lost, some even have zapateo (who dances at a funeral?), and seem happy.
I'm no one to criticise or take a position, I'm simply sharing my observations.
I think I was, in part, criticising that very same subtlety. In places it can be very special. But too much would seem to be getting away from the part of flamenco that just reaches down into your shorts and grabs you.
But then again, I sometimes get annoyed if I hear too much rasgueo.
I guess I'll be searching for the balance(s) that please me. But I'm sure someone will criticise whatever I can someday do as being too much or not enough something or other...
I love the old stuff. Flamenco will always be based on the phrygian and will always be based on the traditional toque. However, it was time for flamenco to evolve and it has been great. If you listen to the new styles of flamenco (eg. PDL, vicente, Viejin, pura, etc..) the skeleton of the traditional is always and will always be there. If you don't hear it, then give it time, and you will see that everything is still there, just a bit more complex and harmonized a bit different. Ivan
ORIGINAL: ivan I love the old stuff. Flamenco will always be based on the phrygian
Sorry to be Mr. nit-pick-pain-in-the-arse, but just for the record plenty of flamenco is not phrygian eg. Alegrias, Colombianas, lots of rumbas and Sevillanas, Farruca etc (not including modulations within the toque).
ricardo, can you give me an obvious example of PDL's minor third use? or is that all of his discography except his earliest work? that is very intriguing to me but my weak theory will be a hindrance in appreciating the difference.
and curious that the song forms like rumbas and columbianas aren't necessarily considered modern even if they are departures from the traditional.
Listen to Paco's bulerias Tumbona and recordings since then. Here is an obvious one you don't really need theory to "hear" it and appriciate. This is a vid of me (left) and ToddK(right). We play 2 falsetas. The second one is from "Compadres" a duet of Paco and Manolo Sanlucar. The melody is mainly in A phrygian, but there is a part near the end where we trade off. Todd plays the same melody a minor third up (Cphrygian). You can hear the modulation clearly. I play complentary chords high on the fretboard. The reason it works is because the notes in the A Spanish phrygian scale share notes with C phrygian dominant. (Bb,C,C# orDb, E,F, G...) Only one note is different, A, and the Ab note would actually pull nicely back to tonic, so it is a really smooth modulation. Again this example is obvious because it is a reapeat of the same melody, but you can listen out for it.
Tomatito has and example in a falseta in Encuentro that he teaches. Chicuelo does it, etc.
In regards to palos, forms, there are NO new or modern forms. That is one thing that you don't have as trad. vs modern. The forms have been well established. The exception is "Canasteros" which was a creation of Paco and Camaron, but has not really become a popular form of its own. There is just that one version that is done. In terms of guitar it is a mix of Rondena guitar tunning (toque) and fandango or Verdiales beat (abandolao compas). R. Montoya used "Rondena" to describe his free style composition, not related to the real cante "Rondena". Paco tried to tie in the verdiales type rhythm of the cante, directly to Montoya's personal tunning idea. Nowadays it is common for guitarists to play that kind of beat in Rondena tunning, and simply call it "Rondena". "Canastera" applies only to the song.
Many don't consider Rumba OR Sevillanas "flamenco". If you do consider those forms flamenco, then they could also be traditional. Columbianas IS flamenco, certainly traditional if you want. A modern columbianas example for guitar would be Paco's Monasterio, or Tomatito's version.
sorry Jon, I was referring to bulerias and tangos. I guess I should have been more clear. My point was as Ricardo said:"The forms have been well established". Ivan
Regarding Ricardo's first reply, that was awesome man. I've seen this question asked a lot and that was by far the best I've heard anyone put it. Well done man.
From my point of view, the vocabulary of flamenco changed when paco worked with al and john. Both these guys played contemporary jazz(of their time) but were also well versed in bebop. These are the gentlemen who taught paco about passing chords and chords with extensions. Fill in some gaps with Bossa Nova and Composers such as de Falla and you've got the beginning of paco's new explorations.
Paco was touring in Brazil many years before. He picked up the brazillian vocab early. Al and John are not really considered straight ahead jazz guys. They are considered to be among the pioneers of jazz/rock fusion. I dont' really know how the hardcore bopers rate Al and John, although they may be able to hang in that genre. If you check out any live footage of the TRIO you may be surprised how Paco ignores the "extensions" and passing chords, opting for the typically flamenco cante accomp voiceings. Even in chick corea or black orpheus type jazz standards.
I see you agree with a lot of what I said, but I am not clear on what you are disagreeing with. Jazz students can blow over Tomatito, if he had simple rhythm? I dont' see the point really. They would not see the point of the "progession", since falsetas are not based on a chart. Tomate meets Camilo is different. They make charts for the sake of fusion. The point of flamenco improv. is the compas not a chart or progression. And resolving the cadence I find tough even for good jazz guys I have jammed with.
My main point about saying modern flamenco is not related to jazz directly, is because I find a lot of folks can't acquire a taste for modern flamenco guitar or shy away from learning any of it, because they fear they lack knowleadge of jazz theory. Or I hear often "I don't like Paco's latest, because I don't like jazz". Or Paco and co. don't play flamenco, they play Jazz nowadays. I am just saying that having a knowleadge of jazz theory won't help you play tomatito easier than the guy who can play very well the music of Escudero.
And I dont' quite get where you are going with BADF-BbG#DE as being a ii-V in minor that goes to major? I dont' get what you mean really. Do you mean this is used in A phrygian but you don't find it in trad lit of what music? ii-V would be Bm7b5-E7 in Am. Do you mean tritone sub?(Bb7-BbAbD and E is #11)? Common move neopolitan 2nd. In flamenco this would be pretty basic descending chromatics.
What I was trying to say is that "jazzy" is a misleading term. Even within jazz there are people who don't agree with the etymology of the term. I tried to do this using the ii-V progression even spelling it out. The Bb in the V chord would be a b5(E-G#-Bb-D) The b5 coming down from the root of the minor 7 b5( making a nice B-Bb-A bass progression. This of course could be viewed as a ii -tritone sub for V progression in minor except that it can resolve to major.(You are probably the only one who will get this so sorry everyone else) A nice sequence in A phrygian would be A-D-C-Eb, Ab-F#-C-D,Gmin. G-F-Bb-Db, Gb-E-Bb-C, Fmaj 7 or dom 7. ii-V played on 6-4-3-2 string set.
True jazzy is misleading as a term, and not sure your disagreement still, because that is sort of what my orginal post was about. How calling modern flamenco "jazzy" is misleading. This voicing is right from Brazillian style guitar which I admited early on was an influence. Perhaps Brazillian style and Jazz are related, but I think they both have strong enough identity that you would not call a Braziillian guitarist a "jazz" player. Again just terminology. No doubt Brazillian/south American style chord voicings are influencing modern flamenco players. And alot depends on the specific interests of a certain tocaor. For example Paco was into Rabello, Tomatito likes Salinas, etc. In regards to FUNCTION of this type of progression, it is a more colorful way of doing the descending chromatics that is very old school flamenco. And Some old school tocaors were into Brazillian music way before Paco too. Check out Pepe Martinez playing Choro in Rito y Geografia.
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He no doubt played traditional voicings in many of the numbers because he was nervous. He explains that he felt somewhat inferior to the other guys in regards to playing over changes because he was coming from a different school.
Well, I don't think so. I know he says they gave him a headache and all that, but if you watch a live show, he is the leader a lot of the times, and does voicings his own way because it is more flamenco. The other guys taught Paco stuff no doubt, but it is not like Paco was swinging over hard bop changes or something. That stuff was fusion of ideas. If want to say because Paco improvises changes and understands bossa nova (you consider the trio live versions of B.Opheus a good example of bossa nova style?) that jazz "permeates" his style, I guess I can't argue.
Kenny G is smooth jazz just like Ottmar is smooth flamenco. He tried bulerias, so you can't call "no flamenco" on him and no jazz on Kenny.
Tomatito, I dont' see the point of focus on "changes" without rhythm involved. Lets just say ultimatley flamenco is either V-i, V-I, or Andalucian Cadence. Simpler than Giant Steps, but purpose of those cadences is often in the rhythm, and the clever ways to resolve is the thing the jazz guys won't pick up right away. Again what I am saying is having jazz vocab does not help you get into the world of the modern flamenco player, BETTER than the guitarist that is well versed in the tradition.
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We are not talking about flamenco, we are talking about the term jazzy and its use to describe flamenco.
Actually we are talking about modern vs traditional flamenco, and how jazz might or might not be related. Again part of our different view I think is I put Brazillian style guitar in a separte category from Jazz guitar. Baden Powell vs Wes Montgomery. Charlie Byrd is in the middle, fusing both styles.
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It IS traditional by today's standards
In regards to Escudero, cutting edge in his day no doubt, the point is trad vs modern (the arugement here) should be going by TODAY'S standards, and is in context with this arguement. I am not going by the standards back in the 50s. But even if I were, I would not say Escudero's flamenco was "jazzy". I would admit he was influenced by classical spanish, De Falla etc. How about Juan Serrano's Autumn Leaves or Carlos Montoya from St. Louis to Seville? I consider those deliberate fusions, but keep them separate from the general style of flamenco of period X.
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Sure you can find alot of todays harmonic devices in impetus but I challenge you to find these chords in a recording prior to 1980. Use A prygian as the home key. Bb#11/F. Bmin7b5. E7b5/Bb. Bb13 spelled Bb-E-Ab-D-G. I think you'll find that these voicings, very common in jazz will be nowhere to be found in music of that time.
All those chords are used in Impetu, plus many other interesting voicings. You would be surprised. True no Brazillian walk downs, Bb#11/F is there, Bm7b5 is there (5th position bar) E7b/Bb or Bb-E-G#(Ab)-D is there. All in context of A phrygian.
romerito, seriously, I don' t get what you're trying to say. What does function have to do with anything? Aren't the same structures in place in the newer flamenco as the old, they simply use different chords as substitutions?
I can see bossa and jazz being much more related, because of the relatively complex harmonic sequences in bossas.
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