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Posts: 181
Joined: Mar. 19 2024
From: Hunan, China
Saddle has nothing left
Recently I found a guitar has 12th string height of 3.5mm but the saddle has nothing left. If I want a lower string height, what should I do? Is the problem on the neck? Could any expert please explain it?
Posts: 15631
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Saddle has nothing left (in reply to hxwhf72752003)
This was typical of guitars where they were going for the Goldilocks zone and over shot the neck angle a hair. Also it happens if the top sinks and pulls the neck up out of the Goldilocks zone. There are a lot of old esteso/conde guitar where there is no saddle room left but the guitars are right in the good spot. Dangerous for sure.
There are two fixes. First, the bridge can be sanded down to expose the saddle. You have to be careful that a break angle of at least 1 degree or more is still there if you lower the saddle further. If you get to an angle of zero, then you have to fill the string holes and have them redrilled at a downward angle to keep the angle over the saddle. Rarely, that silly 12 hole thing can work too, as you have no counter pull UP that further reduces the break angle. (I call it silly because most luthiers and players started believing the myth that the break angle is contributing massively to volume out put).
Or you can buy Estebanan's guitar that is in the Goldilocks zone and won't have these issues.
This was typical of guitars where they were going for the Goldilocks zone and over shot the neck angle a hair. Also it happens if the top sinks and pulls the neck up out of the Goldilocks zone. There are a lot of old esteso/conde guitar where there is no saddle room left but the guitars are right in the good spot. Dangerous for sure.
There are two fixes. First, the bridge can be sanded down to expose the saddle. You have to be careful that a break angle of at least 1 degree or more is still there if you lower the saddle further. If you get to an angle of zero, then you have to fill the string holes and have them redrilled at a downward angle to keep the angle over the saddle. Rarely, that silly 12 hole thing can work too, as you have no counter pull UP that further reduces the break angle. (I call it silly because most luthiers and players started believing the myth that the break angle is contributing massively to volume out put).
Or you can buy Estebanan's guitar that is in the Goldilocks zone and won't have these issues.
Now that I’ve fully entered early curmudgeonhood I’ve authored a barrage of platitudes that would have Bartlett blushing:
Guitars are best built by poets who think like engineers, not engineers who think like engineers.
Two holes are difficult enough to keep up with, six are manageable if you’re good, but twelve holes? What kind of alien life am I dealing with?
——- 12 hole bridges are unnecessary, thank goodness we’ve past the stage when those who order guitars to be made have mostly stop demanding them on the anecdotal gossip that * the more break angle the more torque on the bridge.* This is completely untrue, and torque won’t improve your toque.
Further ranting, I really wince when I see the Gilbert style bridge that looks like a wooden version of something that belongs on a Jaguar automobile suspension system. Reportedly he said the Spanish bridge design was backwards because all the strength was taken out of it by the isolation of the tie block and saddle hump, and the weak connection between the bridge wings and the center structure. Ok Dilbert, that was the point, the bridge is a moderating factor over the top because the design brilliance is that it allows the maker to make it as light and stiff or flexible as it needs to be so it’s the optimum *brace* over the top, which also traps the strings. Then he proceeded to make something that looks eleven times more clumsy than the Hard-on bridge in Sevilla. ( sorry to use your name in vain Sr. Calatrava)
The Spanish guitar reached its terminal design apogee around Barbero, if not Santos, everything after that is treachery. ( don’t ask me why)
* crosses self Catholic style and isn’t even Catholic)
RE: Saddle has nothing left (in reply to hxwhf72752003)
In my view, instead of selling a guitar with a bad set up, I ‘d rather fix it. I’d rather sell it once it’s fixed.
The neck angle issue is , generally speaking, a bad one, but you have to assess it correctly before getting to a conclusion. How faris the E string from the top at the bridge sadddle? How tall are the frets? Goldilocks is 3 mm action and 8 mm at the saddle. I find ok also 7 mm at the saddle if the guitar has a steady, little bouncing top, as per the typical Conde Felipe V guitars.
I play 3 guitars, all set from 3 to 3.2 mm at the 12th fret and are much comfortable than a different guitar with 2.7 action: the feeling is different depending from the neck shape and the top responsiveness more than the mere numbers.
The bridge must always have at least 6 mm of wood where it holds the saddle. A picture of the bridge can say a lot.
RE: Saddle has nothing left (in reply to hxwhf72752003)
I agree with estebanana. Why buy problems? I realize that Flamenco guitars might be more rare in your neck of the woods, but I would keep looking.
Also agree concerning Gilbert style bridges. I don't mind the look, but the design smacks of form over function. To me, it's change for the sake of change and it's not an improvement. I made one years ago, I think it was on my third or fourth guitar. I just wanted to prove to myself I could do a nice interpretation of it. Out of that I came to realize the traditional design evolved to be what it is for good reason, form follows function, so to speak.
Think about it, the traditional design allows a bridge to have a minimal amount of bone sticking out above the wood, generally no more than 3mm suits my eye nicely. This allows the bulk of the saddle to be supported by wood, so it's structurally sound. If, as in the case of the guitar you're looking at, the saddle needs to be lowered, the wood supporting the saddle can also be reshaped to allow a functional and also pleasing amount of saddle protrusion. This can be done on the guitar without any issue. Remember, people weren't so precious about this stuff when the bridge evolved, there wasn't so much concern about "originality" or even about the effect of minute changes on tone. So it makes sense that the bridge would have evolved to allow for adjustability, not just of the saddle, but of the saddle block itself, too.
The Gilbert style doesn't easily allow for a graceful adjustment of the wood while it's on the guitar. For that reason, a lot of new guitars made with that style bridge tend to have a fair amount of bone sticking out to allow for adjustment. I always see excessive (to my eye) bone as a cross-over from the steel string world, where neck resets of dovetailed heel joints can be more common. But, to me, it looks artless and kind of works against the flow of the bridge style, which to my eye can be quite pretty. But it's not practical like the traditional style. At least, in my opinion.
RE: Saddle has nothing left (in reply to hxwhf72752003)
The thing there is a design driven by scientific approach. In my view we can judge how effective a bridge is just in relation to the whole system, and particularly with the bracing system. - the Kasha bridge just had wrong scientific basis .. - the Gilbert bridge is good in terms of how it deals the top torsion.I for one never used it as I find it but ugly but some people found that the light version made with walnut works pretty well. I don't know. - Falcate bridge is extremely light and works very well combined with the bracing system of Trevor Gore as the bridge extremities match exactly with the curved shape of the bracing system underneath the top . - The Smallman bridge is good in terms of weight, torsion management and the Padauk wood properties. It doesn't need to have long wings as the lattice bracing is spread quite uniformly throughout the top.
Romanillos once made me notice his bridge has a long tailpiece, as Barbero used to do before him, in order to control the torsion. It was the first time I noticed this feature and then I saw it also in Ramirez etc.
In the flamenco world I think the traditional bridge shape is the more effective for the purpose. If you need to control the top torsion you can always make use of a bridge patch, as Reyes and Arcangel used to do.
RE: Saddle has nothing left (in reply to hxwhf72752003)
I live in one of the most wet places of Ireland and with the usual things (good case, dehumidifiers etc) I can keep it under control. In general dry conditions are way more dangerous and the new Conde are quite sturdy. Given that, I ignore the circumstances and the actual guitar, so I'm not confident to give further advice.
Posts: 15631
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Saddle has nothing left (in reply to hxwhf72752003)
quote:
ORIGINAL: hxwhf72752003
The reason why I ask this question is that I am afraid of the distortion of the guitar due to the weather.
After reading Ramirez 3's book where he discussed the amazing power of humidity and how guitars have no choice but to conform, I lived in fear for a few years and over humidified several of my guitars, which later I had to have repaired. Don't live in fear. Let your guitars "breath" as they were designed. I no longer humidify my guitars, I just keep them in the cases and avoid using them in extreme environments (like I don't play them in the amazon jungle or Antarctica ).
RE: Saddle has nothing left (in reply to hxwhf72752003)
Ramirez III made his fortune by taking the issue of humidity seriously. The use of cedar, the laminate sides, the reinforced neck, the use of polyurethane a humidity controlled shop, are all features introduced by Ramirez in his famous 1a model to sort the problems of touring musicians. And it worked. These features let him sell his guitars everywhere.
Segovia had to chose Ramirez over his Fleta for this main reason. Bream never gave up but he had to come to terms in fixing his Romanillos many times because of the damages of his guitar in travel, mainly for humidity reasons. Now, obviously the Ramirez model got appreciated beyond the original purposes: in fact I myself own a 84 Ramirez I like a lot: I find that the good ones are really a deal; aside any matter of humidity.
I find that certain guitars are more fit than others when traveling to wet or dry places though: I have to go to Israel and plan to bring my old Sanciss. Many years ago I went there with a newly shellacked guitar and the extreme conditions made the finishing soft and sticky again…
anyway In am with you: a guitar is made to be played.
RE: Saddle has nothing left (in reply to hxwhf72752003)
On the subject of top torsion, or how the top ‘S’ curves, that’s not a problem. The bridge should rotate. The guitar makers who tried to ‘fix’ that were devising solutions to issues that aren’t problems. This is why I said engineers aren’t needed. Guitars are made by poets who use enough vernacular knowledge to keep the guitar from folding up on itself.
Because I grew up in a violin shop in my high school and college years I was in touch with dozens of books that documented the 350 years of how luthiers tried to improve the violin from its inception in northern Italy to its full development in Lombard region specifically in Cremona and Mantua. The mid 19th century was when most of the speculative exploration into better violins happened, there are lots of books with illustrations of designs that were short lived. Then in the mid twentieth century Simon Sacconi came to work in the US and he kicked off a global reexamination of why the Cremonese violins were the best models. These studies were taken up by violin makers in Europe and the US where the best people were and the top instruments were and they began the contemporary field of deep study of the development of violin making from 1520’s to 1740’s from Amati to Storioni the last true golden age maker.
When I started making guitars I just went straight to Santos and tried to understand where he came from. And in a nutshell that’s pretty much what makers do today. The so called innovations all have drawbacks that have prevented them from supplanting the main lines of Torres to the makers in the 20th century. I think in the future even double top construction will become less utilized even though it’s hot now.
RE: Saddle has nothing left (in reply to hxwhf72752003)
Well, there are 2 ways. A great luthier, Dario Pontiggia, used to say that to master Hauser or Santos is like to seat on the shoulder of a giant: this way some luthiers improve faster and by focusing on great guitars and learning their subtleties they keep alive their memory, doing a service to the whole community. On the other side, guitar making as any other human art, develops by attempting something new. Friederich, Ramirez, Smallman, Dammann are thereto prove it. You need of people like Simon Ambridge as well as Robert Ruck or Matthias Dammann.
With regard of the bridge features , there are many factors, the main ones being the actual dimension, the weight and the torsion module in both the directions. The falcate bridge and the Smallman bridge are clever as they are built coherently with the whole project. With regard of traditional design, my point is that a long tailpiece is a determinant contributing factor with regards of transversal torsion and mass. It’s useful to take a look at the appendix re bridges in the Bruné - Ulrich book to appreciate it. BTW, the way they some makers set up bridge and fretboard in Granada is a work of art in itself as it’s not apparent to the average customers.
RE: Saddle has nothing left (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
Guitars are made by poets who use enough vernacular knowledge to keep the guitar from folding up on itself.
i bought a guitar made by e e cummings this is actually true it had two offset necks one for four strings and one for two i didn't really like it it lacked punctuation and was impossible to tune
All the makers mentioned from Ramirez to Smallman all began with a format that based on Torres and went from there. The only thing different is they either changed the materials used in the top, or in the case of Smallman changed a body structure. I don’t consider Smallman instruments as guitars, to me that’s not a guitar, it’s cross between a speaker cabinet and frackus of a banjo and harpsichord murderering each other.
Ruck, Friederich Ramirez et al are not innovations, they are far reaching extensions of Torres and Spanish school work.
Guitars are made by poets who use enough vernacular knowledge to keep the guitar from folding up on itself.
i bought a guitar made by e e cummings this is actually true it had two offset necks one for four strings and one for two i didn't really like it it lacked punctuation and was impossible to tune
Eucalyptus leaves, Shimmer in Oz, wombat farts, Must be a small man
That is where I kept my boat. When I took early retirement, the club offered me a flat in a converted mill on the shore of Corrib.
I thought of living there, but the long damp winters put me off. So I had to give up my passion of fshing and relocate to Andalucía
Can’t you go out and catch a pompano to grill?
I was in a beach town in Spain in 1989, walking on a long straight hot road far out from town. A car pulled over and this German lady about 50 asked me to get in. I said I was fine, she says “You vill do as I say und get in zee automobile. It is fah too hot at 12 pm to be valking.”
She asked me where I was from and said before she drops me back to town she’s taking me to lunch. She was German on holiday and she was a dentist. We went to a seaside restaurant, she insisted she order the lunch. We ate a grilled pompano and salads of various and gazpacho from tomato. We ate bread with beer, while grumpy husband, who was also a dentist, toiled with work in his boat that was docked in the rickety marina front of the restaurant. She walked out to the edge of the water and called in English. “Horst, you must come to lunch and meet the young man I picked up in the road.” Then they argued in German and Horst stayed in the boat, I think he said in German “Stop picking up stray cats you insufferable cat lady, let it die by the side of the road.”
She told me over the meal how lazy and annoying East Germans were and how she doubted they would assimilate well into west German society.
Then she drove me all the way back to town and said “Und now you vill go to your hotel, brush za teeths und take a nap.”
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