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Posts: 15509
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Can a dirty fretboard cause stri... (in reply to metalhead)
quote:
ORIGINAL: metalhead
My strings lose quality after just 5 days of playing. I don't even have sweaty hands. My fretboard has been never cleaned. Could this be due to that?
If so can I use lemon oil on the fret? I think my fretboard is Merbau open pore...
Yes, between ages of like 20 and 45, the ph in the fingers can kill the strings even if they are not dirty. I remember killing a set of Savarez reds in one night, brand new. Discussions about this phenomenon included a recommendation by a top player to let the new strings settle over a couple days or else they die quicker. Experiments seemed to corroborate this. It wasn't until my later 40s that the bass sets would turn grimy green and still sounded like new. Some young guys played my guitar and killed the basses right away in those years and I knew it was the PH in young guy's fingers. Cleaning the strings and such don't really do any good.
The best you can do is as was recommended...after putting on new strings don't play for a couple days. They last longer, but you know it is not much. Also, after killing a set that look new, take the strings OFF (basses only) and put them back on however off set from where you tied them before, like a tie-block length toward the bridge. (that means keep the headstock side long, like roll the slack into a loop cuz you will need it). That gets them sounding new for a few days at least (or one gig if you needed them to be bright for a live performance).
So I used to do all that above and no longer need to since I turned like 40 something. My strings are filthy and sound brand new right now.
RE: Can a dirty fretboard cause stri... (in reply to metalhead)
When I buy strings I would get:
-5 full sets
-5 sets of the wound strings E A D
-5 D strings
I can crush a D string in 5 to 7 days up in the first position and just swap it out, about the time I wore out the second D string I would have worn the A string down to the core, then change out all the wound strings EAD etc etc…. You get the picture.
I’m not killing the strings as fast these days, less of a death grip with my left hand and more finesse with my right hand I suppose, of ya, I’ve got three guitars hanging on the wall right now so there’s that, I’m not just beating the one to death two or three hours a day ;)
Strings are cheap and life is short.
HR
_____________________________
I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy, doesn't have to be fast, should have some meat on the bones, can be raw or well done, as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
RE: Can a dirty fretboard cause stri... (in reply to metalhead)
In my study/performing years I often suffered bass strings sounding dull after a couple of days of playing. I guess the problem was filth pilling up between the windings. I had a trick to remove the dirth which could give the strings a short lived boost. It might be related to Ricardo's removing/replacing the strings but in my case rather than removing the strings my trick was to tune them down until the point you can not plug/hear them anymore. This would already help a bit but to get writ of all the dirt pilled up between the windings i'dd lift the string in vertical direction (away from the fretboard like it was a bow and errow) and then let it bounce back making the string crash on the fretboard. If you do this a couple of times I suspect it will smash the fitlth out of the windings. Quite often I combined this with cleaning the string with alcohol. After a series of beatings you tune up again and often will notice the string sounds clearer for a couple of minutes. I could do this various times a day. With normal tuning mechanisms this "Pitt stop" is quite a lot of work but if you have a guitar with traditional tuning pegs it's a matter of seconds. Make sure to have a knot left so the string won't came off when pulling/smashing it).
Funny enough my local supermarkt once sold extremely cheap sets of guitar strings for a month. My expectation was zero but they turned out to be acceptable. The bass strings weren't as clear as other branches of guitar strings but unlike them the bass strings did not loose power after days/weeks but remained as good as on the first day. Unlike the professional strings they hardly/didn't need time to streach out so you could play/perform within the hour. On top each set had an extra D string. When they were down prized I bought the whole stag for 3,- a set, the price one would normally pay for a single D string with more expensive strings.
_____________________________
The smaller the object of your focus the bigger the result.
Posts: 15509
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Can a dirty fretboard cause stri... (in reply to Erik van Goch)
quote:
i'dd lift the string in vertical direction (away from the fretboard like it was a bow and errow) and then let it bounce back making the string crash on the fretboard. If you do this a couple of times I suspect it will smash the fitlth out of the windings.
Just a warning. When I was young I would do this as well, even as tuning up a new set of strings to quick-stretch them before a gig. An older colleague watched my procedure and told me to discontinue this practice and instead tune sharp of pitch. Why? Because by pulling up on the strings, the windings of the bases (especially) are "sawing" into the string holes of the tie block, and overtime gouging a wider channel UP away from the top. This results (over time) of a relaxed break angle and other issues such as intonation. Eventually a student brought a used guitar that had this issue and the fix involved filling the string holes with rosewood dowels and re-drilling.
Perhaps in your case the pull back is not that hard and this damage is minimal, but I wanted to put this out there because people will read this and likely pull those loose strings too harshly.
Lastly I want to reiterate that I can play with grimy strings, green with junk, and they sound bright as new. It is not that grime causing the lack of brightness, it is something else entirely that "kills" the tone over the fret positions. That is why off-setting them offers a brief resurrection. We need Kitarist to figure out the science behind this.
RE: Can a dirty fretboard cause stri... (in reply to metalhead)
Thanks for the warning. Good point. I used it for quick stretching of a new set as well. But for that purpose more often I would pull the string continuesly in such a way all pressure is added on windings and the part of the string that's going te be winded next so from the verry start the windings end up being made under similar tention conditions as having actual string tension and as a result don't stretch/give in when the tuned string is adding similar tention or a bit more if like us one tunes it sharp in pitch to speed up the stretching time.
_____________________________
The smaller the object of your focus the bigger the result.
Posts: 3472
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Can a dirty fretboard cause stri... (in reply to Erik van Goch)
When I was a financially challenged university student nearly 70 years ago we used to use Leonidas strings. I think they were a couple of dollars per set in Mexico. When they would get too dull we would take them off and soak them in warm soapy water, followed by a soak in clear water. Then we would hang them up to dry. They were good for at least another week.
[Googling, I see that Leonida (no "s") is now an expensive Savarez brand.]
RE: Can a dirty fretboard cause stri... (in reply to metalhead)
i made a similar report like yours somewhere on forum , but i realized that the isue was Room temperature/humidity Theres a sweet spot , too much heat or too much cold the sound and string feels like trash.
the only set that were horrible since day one , were the cheap Savarez 520, horrible in any way. after day 3 couldnt continue and tooked off
RE: Can a dirty fretboard cause stri... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
ORIGINAL: metalhead
My strings lose quality after just 5 days of playing. I don't even have sweaty hands. My fretboard has been never cleaned. Could this be due to that?
If so can I use lemon oil on the fret? I think my fretboard is Merbau open pore...
Yes, between ages of like 20 and 45, the ph in the fingers can kill the strings even if they are not dirty. I remember killing a set of Savarez reds in one night, brand new. Discussions about this phenomenon included a recommendation by a top player to let the new strings settle over a couple days or else they die quicker. Experiments seemed to corroborate this. It wasn't until my later 40s that the bass sets would turn grimy green and still sounded like new. Some young guys played my guitar and killed the basses right away in those years and I knew it was the PH in young guy's fingers. Cleaning the strings and such don't really do any good.
The best you can do is as was recommended...after putting on new strings don't play for a couple days. They last longer, but you know it is not much. Also, after killing a set that look new, take the strings OFF (basses only) and put them back on however off set from where you tied them before, like a tie-block length toward the bridge. (that means keep the headstock side long, like roll the slack into a loop cuz you will need it). That gets them sounding new for a few days at least (or one gig if you needed them to be bright for a live performance).
So I used to do all that above and no longer need to since I turned like 40 something. My strings are filthy and sound brand new right now.
RE: Can a dirty fretboard cause stri... (in reply to metalhead)
PH is indeed
a figure expressing the acidity or alkalinity of a solution on a logarithmic scale on which 7 is neutral, lower values are more acid and higher values more alkaline.
Oposites on the scale can partly neutralize each other. So it is verry well possible that 2 liquits that burn you to the bone when touching you individually become less dangerous when mixed in the right balance but obviously don't try this at home.
To remove the skin from oranges/mandarin parts used to dress up pastries for instance 2 liquits are used that will burn your throat instantly but used in succession/together they nutralise each other.
_____________________________
The smaller the object of your focus the bigger the result.
RE: Can a dirty fretboard cause stri... (in reply to metalhead)
Ricardo,
Was the well known guitarist that discussed pH and guitar strings none other than Gerardo Nunez? I can see why you may have been hesitant to reveal the great masters name in proximity to the subject of penis Hands, but the cat is out of the bag now.
I saved someone’s skin once when I was taking high school chemistry by understanding the difference between acidic penis hand and base penis hand.
RE: Can a dirty fretboard cause stri... (in reply to metalhead)
When I was in high school I was considered a dumb dumb, the swim team coach called dumb dumb as a name. His name was Mr. Foreman or Coach Foreman and he was the chemistry teacher. In order for me to be on the swim team I had to take chemistry, but I was not smart enough to actually take the class so coach Forman made me the TA ( in American schools this means teaching assistant and it usually goes to a student at the head of the class) As TA Forman told me I had to do one thing, keep all the laboratory glass ware clean, properly sanitized and stored. I was also in charge of checking out the chemicals from the chemical locker to the smart kids were actually taking the class for college track exams.
Coach Foreman said I was a nice kid, but dumb and he needed me on the swim team because nobody else was dull enough to put up with training for the mind numbing distance events of 400, 800 and 1500 meter freestyle. I was the distance donkey and the other kids were the hotshot breast strokers and ‘Flyers’ I was also on the freestyle relay team, the number 2 team. One morning Foreman took me to the lab workroom and taught me how to wash the glassware and proceedures of safety with the chemicals used in the course. He said, you’re not going to hack taking chemistry, but at least when you graduate with your C average you’ll be able to get a job at a manufacturing lab as an entry level lab technician. Which was actually not a bad idea.
So during the chemistry lecture hours I’d be in the next room working with glassware and listening to the class. One day a smart kid rushed into the work room and said he needed more hydro something acid, it wasn’t hydroflouric, but it was fairly caustic and highly concentrated. Rather than allow Dumb Dumb to properly hand over the chemical he just grabbed it off the shelf and ripped the cap off. He poured it into a large beaker and a drop hit his bare forearm causing him to spasm from the burning pain, which led to him spilling 70% of the acid from his chest to his pants legs and dropping the beaker which exploded into glass shards on the tile floor. Lucky for me I was standing far enough away that Ol’ Dumb Dumb was not splattered with sulfuric acid or whatever it was. The kids polyester shirt immediately began to smoke and shred off his body and his pants were steaming with caustic fumes eating at the cotton jeans he wore. A splotch of acid had hit him in the forehead as well. He started screaming. I reached up and pulled a bottle off the materials shelf and unscrewed the cap. I started pouring the liquid over his shirt and pants and with my rubber gloved hands yanked the shirt off him, because it was burned in half within ten seconds. Now Coach Forman came running wondering if I’d killed myself with a Bunsen burner, only to see me pouring Sodium Hydroxide over a half naked screaming smart guy. He immediately understood what had happened and started helping me by grabbing a spray hose from the sink and rinsing the base off the smart kid.
Luckily he sustained a few minor patches of reddened skin and lost a pair of pants and a shirt. He was pathetic standing there in his whitey tighty underwear next to me wearing a full front rubber apron and gloves. He was send to get a new shirt and pants. Foreman looked at me and said good job. Not as dumb as I thought.
Turned out that I went to school my entire life until age 18 without anyone noticing or asking if I could see well. It was assumed I was an intense but slowish reader, but checked out during class. The problem is that I have fairly good vision, but radical astigmatism. My grandmother started working for an eye doctor as a receptionist when I was 17, she had previously worked for a dentist. Eventually I visited her and I suppose from working there she learned the signs of a person with sight trouble. She noticed how I would read books and said you have a sight problem. My problem was I couldn’t see the chalkboard very well and did poorly in class. I was fixed up with glasses in a few days and I was able to read without eye strain and see chalkboards.
Now my question regarding strings and pH is, have any of you stable geniuses considered applying chemistry to your bass killing hands situation?
What’s the most common mild base regularly found in a household, besides clothes washing bleach? Uh huh, Baking Soda. Did you ever consider putting some in a zip lock bag and dusting your guitar wipe down cloth with Baking Soda? Your acidic fingerings could be neutralized with a little wipe of the cloth.
RE: Can a dirty fretboard cause stri... (in reply to metalhead)
If you wanted to get fancy you could make weak hydrogen peroxide solution and dip your guitar cloth in it and wipe each base string separately…
The string whapping method of shocking the strings back to life by snapping them is a bad idea. It doesn’t clean the strings, it shocks them out of the shape they’ve adopted from being tuned and stretched from one point to another. Strings play dull and out of tune because they are being pressed and pulled against the frets, which causes them to go out of round. The hard action of playing distorts the trueness of the string, it bends and pounds them so they are no longer as round and evenly tensioned. This causes them to be dull, in addition to skin oil which attracts dirt and allows skin detritus to adhere to the strings between the over wound wire.
Snapping the string might benefit the sound by shocking it out of the set it has taken, but ultimately destroys the integrity of the string.
A better suggestion is to flip the string. When the bass gets dull, take it off and do what Richard mentioned, wash it with dishwashing detergent, and let it dry. Use a hair dryer on cool setting only for fast work. Then put the string back in the guitar but flip it so the end that was on the tuner roller is on the tie block.
The string will still be used, but it will go on for some time before it gets stale again.
RE: Can a dirty fretboard cause stri... (in reply to metalhead)
quote:
ORIGINAL: metalhead
My strings lose quality after just 5 days of playing. I don't even have sweaty hands. My fretboard has been never cleaned. Could this be due to that?
If so can I use lemon oil on the fret? I think my fretboard is Merbau open pore...
To answer your actual question, yes dirty fingerboards can make strings dirty.
The best thing to do is NOT oil the fingerboard because oil attracts dust and helps make crappy stuff pile up next to the fret. There’s enough skin oil on your hands to make the fingerboard greasy. The best thing to do is get in the habit of wiping the fingerboard and strings gently with soft absorbent cloth after you play. And if you feel your hands are sweaty while you play, gently wipe your hands.
The people love to oil the fingerboard because it’s a satisfying experience to see the wood become dark and rich colored under the oil. Realistically it’s not necessary for maintaining the guitar. If the fingerboard shrinks in width once or twice during the life of the guitar it can be addressed by a fine file to smooth down any tiny showing of fret tang protruding out the fingerboard. Usually the first time that happens is the last time.
Don’t oil the fingerboard, just wipe with a clean soft absorbent cloth.
The pH issue will solve itself over time as you become a dry old man, then apply oil to you own skin.
Remember a good flamenco guitarist looks in the mirror and says “It rubs lotion on itself, not fingerboard.”
RE: Can a dirty fretboard cause stri... (in reply to metalhead)
I never cleaned my fretboard before. It still looks clean after 5 years of practicing. Maybe I should practice and play more. But I have to say I always wash my hands before my practice routine and my hand doesnt sweat much while practicing.
Posts: 2805
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England
RE: Can a dirty fretboard cause stri... (in reply to devilhand)
Interesting, washing hands before playing had always been a bad thing for me. Especially my right hand. If I've just had a shower or washed hands I'll always wanna get some grease into my right hand asap before I play. Olive oil or a bit of grease from behind my ear.l or forehead. Haha sounds pretty grim when put like that.
I shared a story on here years ago, I had to find paco some plastic bags for him to wrap his hands in prior to a concert. it was to humidify his hands as they were too dry. Much like after you've washed them. Dry and oil free.
RE: Can a dirty fretboard cause stri... (in reply to metalhead)
A real man peels garlic and rubs in on the nails along with olive oil while cooking tortilla to get the hands ready to play.
My situation is I have dry hands now that I’m becoming a young old man, your skin gets drier. You might have to use some hand cream to keep your skin healthy and moisturized, just wipe the excess off your hands before you play.
I think over washing your hands is a real bad idea. It strips moisture out of your skin.
Talking to guy who’s a carpenter and a guitar builder, he said he has difficultly with string noise when he plays due to dry skin. We both have to use a hand cream to keep the skin supple. I’ve experimented with ten different products over the last three years and use some special products with ceramide from my dermatologist, but you can’t beat regular Vaseline for a non medicated skin treatment.
When I do French polishing work I use nitrile gloves, but before I put them on a take a big peanut sized dab of Vaseline and rub it all over my hands backside and palms and slip on the gloves. After a 45 minute French polishing session my hands are restored. Then just wipe off the excess. It’s going to be important to take care of your hands as you age if you want to keep playing.
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My strings are filthy and sound brand new right now. 
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