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RE: This Rasgueado is difficult for ... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
I don't see why amii or some abanico wouldn't work here.
It is like accents. Some people don't care about that detail, but if we are honest, it reveals where a person is from. Like if someone does the wrong rasgueado, it gives me an idea where they were born. . That is why I said "welcome to America!" before. And now even DEVILHAND can hear it! . So, as much as I can as a teacher I try to show the way it should be done, and if I personally change it, I let people know why I am changing it. In the end perhaps you WANT the accent there. Like I am sure Juan Serrano is aware he does it different than others. To me, it is obvious that he does NOT want to break the uniform sound all down strokes produce vs intermittent up strokes.
It is like saying "pobre Gitana" vs "probe Gitana". Both are correct and tastes will dictate. But to see something like that and not confront that, well, is excuses, laziness, etc. At least when learning. AFTER you have it down, and tastes say you don't like it....then do what you want on the stage, or in your bedroom, for your grandma, whatever.
last thing, anecdote: I will never forget the day the abanico came into question in Gerardo's class, he did the "Marote" and then went around the room, one by one to see how different people were doing it. Well, in America that is ALL we do for dance so I do the heavy duty one, compared to the rest of folks, p up AMI together down, and P up with golpe under. I blasted that thing out and Gerardo, Tino, EVERYBODY in the damn class BURSTED out in laughter. Cuz it was so ridiculous loud compared to everybody they thought I was joking. It is no freaking joke, that is how we do it in 'Merica.
So, I knew it was louder, but until then I had no idea it was so loud it was FUNNY. I gradually got a clue and fixed my rasguedo concept, so don't take it lightly. I would say Rasguedo and pulgar....get those right with good taste. The rest is not a big deal.
One of the reasons I have little interest in any more with Amerimenco is that blasted ubiquitous rageo. It sounds like a cement mixer at warp speed. It sells dinner seats at supper flamenco shows, but barf. 🤮
RE: This Rasgueado is difficult for ... (in reply to estebanana)
Amerimeno - I think its just that as we progress in our flamenco journey, we "hopefully" realize the importance of dynamics. The level 11 rasgeos were cool at first but over saturate things real quick
Posts: 1967
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: This Rasgueado is difficult for ... (in reply to estebanana)
You hate the Marote but can deal with the singing?
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
I don't see why amii or some abanico wouldn't work here.
It is like accents. Some people don't care about that detail, but if we are honest, it reveals where a person is from. Like if someone does the wrong rasgueado, it gives me an idea where they were born. . That is why I said "welcome to America!" before. And now even DEVILHAND can hear it! . So, as much as I can as a teacher I try to show the way it should be done, and if I personally change it, I let people know why I am changing it. In the end perhaps you WANT the accent there. Like I am sure Juan Serrano is aware he does it different than others. To me, it is obvious that he does NOT want to break the uniform sound all down strokes produce vs intermittent up strokes.
It is like saying "pobre Gitana" vs "probe Gitana". Both are correct and tastes will dictate. But to see something like that and not confront that, well, is excuses, laziness, etc. At least when learning. AFTER you have it down, and tastes say you don't like it....then do what you want on the stage, or in your bedroom, for your grandma, whatever.
last thing, anecdote: I will never forget the day the abanico came into question in Gerardo's class, he did the "Marote" and then went around the room, one by one to see how different people were doing it. Well, in America that is ALL we do for dance so I do the heavy duty one, compared to the rest of folks, p up AMI together down, and P up with golpe under. I blasted that thing out and Gerardo, Tino, EVERYBODY in the damn class BURSTED out in laughter. Cuz it was so ridiculous loud compared to everybody they thought I was joking. It is no freaking joke, that is how we do it in 'Merica.
So, I knew it was louder, but until then I had no idea it was so loud it was FUNNY. I gradually got a clue and fixed my rasguedo concept, so don't take it lightly. I would say Rasguedo and pulgar....get those right with good taste. The rest is not a big deal.
One of the reasons I have little interest in any more with Amerimenco is that blasted ubiquitous rageo. It sounds like a cement mixer at warp speed. It sells dinner seats at supper flamenco shows, but barf. 🤮
RE: This Rasgueado is difficult for ... (in reply to Mark2)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mark2
You hate the Marote but can deal with the singing?
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
I don't see why amii or some abanico wouldn't work here.
It is like accents. Some people don't care about that detail, but if we are honest, it reveals where a person is from. Like if someone does the wrong rasgueado, it gives me an idea where they were born. . That is why I said "welcome to America!" before. And now even DEVILHAND can hear it! . So, as much as I can as a teacher I try to show the way it should be done, and if I personally change it, I let people know why I am changing it. In the end perhaps you WANT the accent there. Like I am sure Juan Serrano is aware he does it different than others. To me, it is obvious that he does NOT want to break the uniform sound all down strokes produce vs intermittent up strokes.
It is like saying "pobre Gitana" vs "probe Gitana". Both are correct and tastes will dictate. But to see something like that and not confront that, well, is excuses, laziness, etc. At least when learning. AFTER you have it down, and tastes say you don't like it....then do what you want on the stage, or in your bedroom, for your grandma, whatever.
last thing, anecdote: I will never forget the day the abanico came into question in Gerardo's class, he did the "Marote" and then went around the room, one by one to see how different people were doing it. Well, in America that is ALL we do for dance so I do the heavy duty one, compared to the rest of folks, p up AMI together down, and P up with golpe under. I blasted that thing out and Gerardo, Tino, EVERYBODY in the damn class BURSTED out in laughter. Cuz it was so ridiculous loud compared to everybody they thought I was joking. It is no freaking joke, that is how we do it in 'Merica.
So, I knew it was louder, but until then I had no idea it was so loud it was FUNNY. I gradually got a clue and fixed my rasguedo concept, so don't take it lightly. I would say Rasguedo and pulgar....get those right with good taste. The rest is not a big deal.
One of the reasons I have little interest in any more with Amerimenco is that blasted ubiquitous rageo. It sounds like a cement mixer at warp speed. It sells dinner seats at supper flamenco shows, but barf. 🤮
Am I now hip as Devildigits?
Two different things, Marote and people trying to be Marote are different. The singing is a bit unfair to go after, even when it’s difficult to sit through. People who are trying to sing are attempting to be aficionados of cante, which is fine with me. That’s an admirable way to figure out flamenco.
Also different, people getting paid to do shows who are not up to professional level singing and those who arrange to meet at a bar or some community space to take turns singing and playing to each other. That’s making an effort to get better at understanding flamenco.
Also different, the throngs of dance students who join classes for a year or two, get good enough to dance in a group student show and quit without ever listening to historically recognized good cante’.
When folks are gutsy enough to learn some letras and try to sing them to each other there’s nothing bad to say a that. Sometimes is surprising how sincerely it can be done. What’s annoying is when someone tries to sing loudly and they aren’t ready for that, the voice gets one dimensional.
RE: This Rasgueado is difficult for ... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Jaun acts as if this thing is NORMAL, the way it is done in Spain, etc., and it is likely 100% unique to him alone.
Juan Salazar Porrina hijo accompanies his father Porrina de Badajoz. The guitarist uses Juan Serrano's rasgueado. At 0:14 icam icam i (all downstrokes).
As you can see in this video it's not unique to him alone. J.Serrano learnt it from someone. Maybe this ras is not common, but some tocaors did use it in Spain back then.
Posts: 1967
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: This Rasgueado is difficult for ... (in reply to estebanana)
Well everyone does some version of albanico. I don’t think it’s fair to say they are trying to be Marote if they simply play too loud. Or maybe I’m not understanding your point. I agree with your thoughts on non Spanish folks singing. I was thinking more about advertised shows rather than informal learning.
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mark2
You hate the Marote but can deal with the singing?
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
I don't see why amii or some abanico wouldn't work here.
It is like accents. Some people don't care about that detail, but if we are honest, it reveals where a person is from. Like if someone does the wrong rasgueado, it gives me an idea where they were born. . That is why I said "welcome to America!" before. And now even DEVILHAND can hear it! . So, as much as I can as a teacher I try to show the way it should be done, and if I personally change it, I let people know why I am changing it. In the end perhaps you WANT the accent there. Like I am sure Juan Serrano is aware he does it different than others. To me, it is obvious that he does NOT want to break the uniform sound all down strokes produce vs intermittent up strokes.
It is like saying "pobre Gitana" vs "probe Gitana". Both are correct and tastes will dictate. But to see something like that and not confront that, well, is excuses, laziness, etc. At least when learning. AFTER you have it down, and tastes say you don't like it....then do what you want on the stage, or in your bedroom, for your grandma, whatever.
last thing, anecdote: I will never forget the day the abanico came into question in Gerardo's class, he did the "Marote" and then went around the room, one by one to see how different people were doing it. Well, in America that is ALL we do for dance so I do the heavy duty one, compared to the rest of folks, p up AMI together down, and P up with golpe under. I blasted that thing out and Gerardo, Tino, EVERYBODY in the damn class BURSTED out in laughter. Cuz it was so ridiculous loud compared to everybody they thought I was joking. It is no freaking joke, that is how we do it in 'Merica.
So, I knew it was louder, but until then I had no idea it was so loud it was FUNNY. I gradually got a clue and fixed my rasguedo concept, so don't take it lightly. I would say Rasguedo and pulgar....get those right with good taste. The rest is not a big deal.
One of the reasons I have little interest in any more with Amerimenco is that blasted ubiquitous rageo. It sounds like a cement mixer at warp speed. It sells dinner seats at supper flamenco shows, but barf. 🤮
Am I now hip as Devildigits?
Two different things, Marote and people trying to be Marote are different. The singing is a bit unfair to go after, even when it’s difficult to sit through. People who are trying to sing are attempting to be aficionados of cante, which is fine with me. That’s an admirable way to figure out flamenco.
Also different, people getting paid to do shows who are not up to professional level singing and those who arrange to meet at a bar or some community space to take turns singing and playing to each other. That’s making an effort to get better at understanding flamenco.
Also different, the throngs of dance students who join classes for a year or two, get good enough to dance in a group student show and quit without ever listening to historically recognized good cante’.
When folks are gutsy enough to learn some letras and try to sing them to each other there’s nothing bad to say a that. Sometimes is surprising how sincerely it can be done. What’s annoying is when someone tries to sing loudly and they aren’t ready for that, the voice gets one dimensional.
Posts: 292
Joined: May 3 2017
From: Iraq, living in Germany
RE: This Rasgueado is difficult for ... (in reply to silddx)
y'all are confusing... ras here, ras there. for a second i thought y'all went jamaican patois all of a sudden 😂😂😂😂
I am not a friend of the rasgueos/abanicos sprayed everywhere for minutes. there are also way too many mediocre guitarists on instagram doing a poor spanish cadence over abanicos for 6526 videos and getting hella views and followers.
steve...i, too, might mutate to your grumpy iraqi friend. i'm already iraqi so a basic grump is there already😂😂😂
RE: This Rasgueado is difficult for ... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
"e" was used by Edward Freeman in Texas, and others I assume, and means "extender".
It comes from extremo, which means extreme and end, as in "They sat at one end of the table." So, it's the "end" finger.
quote:
M for muñeque, neither.
The word is meñique. Wrist is muñeca. Doll is muñeco/a, depending on the gender, and is also used metaphorically as it is or was in English (e.g., Humphrey Bogart calling Lauren Bacall dollface/muñeca).
Muñeca is also the word for the rubbing pad used in French polishing:
RE: This Rasgueado is difficult for ... (in reply to estebanana)
Re:
My comment about. ‘Amerimenco’ rageo -
I thought for several hours today how to make this good without hurting anyone’s feelings with my callous attitude. What I object to is ‘muscularity over Aire’. Just cause you can play with muscle, doesn’t mean you should. I like players that hold it in reserve and punch it once in a while, then it’s meaningful. Using aire rather than force to draw the audience through a performance is probably something everyone can agree is more satisfying.
I also have a an ‘Aire is a Pasta dish’ metaphor I can share.
Posts: 15413
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: This Rasgueado is difficult for ... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
The guitarist uses Juan Serrano's rasgueado. At 0:14 icam icam i (all downstrokes).
Those points you got earlier, well, you just lost some. Not the same at all. He is doing the "ben woods". Which, now I know of 3 guys doing it (well, I knew this guy you shared already, his mom is the feature in Rito about Extremadura). Notice he can't do glope with index, he uses thumb. Cuz its imac....IMAC
Posts: 15413
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: This Rasgueado is difficult for ... (in reply to Norman Paul Kliman)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Norman Paul Kliman
quote:
"e" was used by Edward Freeman in Texas, and others I assume, and means "extender".
It comes from extremo, which means extreme and end, as in "They sat at one end of the table." So, it's the "end" finger.
quote:
M for muñeque, neither.
The word is meñique. Wrist is muñeca. Doll is muñeco/a, depending on the gender, and is also used metaphorically as it is or was in English (e.g., Humphrey Bogart calling Lauren Bacall dollface/muñeca).
Muñeca is also the word for the rubbing pad used in French polishing:
thanks. meñique, I read it once somewhere and blocked it out of my brain as "m vs m" is no good. Now I wonder where I read about it...I guess "s" could be for "Serrano only".
I think I like e for EXTREMADURA. Since you have to stiffen it a bit, and I use it for Jaleo.
RE: This Rasgueado is difficult for ... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
The guitarist uses Juan Serrano's rasgueado. At 0:14 icam icam i (all downstrokes).
Those points you got earlier, well, you just lost some. Not the same at all. He is doing the "ben woods". Which, now I know of 3 guys doing it (well, I knew this guy you shared already, his mom is the feature in Rito about Extremadura). Notice he can't do glope with index, he uses thumb. Cuz its imac....IMAC
Ah, Ben, what a guy. Even though his main rasgueado was backwards, he played like hell. It was a bit awkward in solea, but weirdly he made it work. Ben is the rare exception to the Amerimenco that went right. His eccentricity became a positive sello propio, even with Spanish born dancers.
RE: This Rasgueado is difficult for ... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Those points you got earlier, well, you just lost some. Not the same at all. He is doing the "ben woods". Which, now I know of 3 guys doing it (well, I knew this guy you shared already, his mom is the feature in Rito about Extremadura). Notice he can't do glope with index, he uses thumb. Cuz its imac....IMAC
It's indeed IMAC. You mean the woman wearing black XXL glasses in rito extremadura? Porrina de Badajoz wears similar sunglasses. What's up with that? I thought he was a blind man.
Posts: 3462
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: This Rasgueado is difficult for ... (in reply to Norman Paul Kliman)
quote:
They say he and Niño Ricardo got along like gangbusters. Their recordings sound good, that's for sure! A couple of hell-raisers!
In a photo I admired Niño Ricardo's spiffy black and white wingtip shoes.
Re: hell-raisers: In Paris I visited La Guitarreria, not far from the Conservatoire and the Gare du Nord. At the time it was owned and run by a formidable Spanish woman.
I took a guitar from the rack and played a soleá falseta. Promptly a man in his thirties appeared and handed me a beautiful spruce/cypress blanca by Paulino Bernabe. While I tried it out he said it was his guitar. He had been rescued from a life of flamenco and alcoholism by his sister, the proprietor. He described a few incidents with Niño Ricardo and his son, whom he described as friends, colleagues and fellow drinkers.
I tried to hand the guitar to him, saying, "Let me hear you play it."
He slid his chair backward, holding up both hands palms out in refusal, saying, "If I played a single note, it would be like taking the first sip of manzanilla."
RE: This Rasgueado is difficult for ... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
.I guess "s" could be for "Serrano only".
Looks like J.Serrano invented his icami ras when he was inspired by flamenco tremolo iami. At 0:20 I don't know why he points out tremolo. I would have said pulgar instead.
At 1:30 he says index upstroke is bad and shows his icami ras.
RE: This Rasgueado is difficult for ... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
Looks like J.Serrano invented his icami ras when he was inspired by flamenco tremolo iami. At 0:20 I don't know why he points out tremolo. I would have said pulgar instead.
At 1:30 he says index upstroke is bad and shows his icami ras.
Bloody hell, he gets that icam fast. I am currently up to about 5 strokes per second. Need to aim at tripling that to sound decent.
_____________________________
The early bird catches the worm. But the second mouse gets the cheese.
Posts: 15413
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: This Rasgueado is difficult for ... (in reply to silddx)
quote:
ORIGINAL: silddx
quote:
Looks like J.Serrano invented his icami ras when he was inspired by flamenco tremolo iami. At 0:20 I don't know why he points out tremolo. I would have said pulgar instead.
At 1:30 he says index upstroke is bad and shows his icami ras.
Bloody hell, he gets that icam fast. I am currently up to about 5 strokes per second. Need to aim at tripling that to sound decent.
As I said earlier it creates a uniform sound, which he explains was his goal. He says doing the up stroke is "wrong", because it is not uniform. Well, after learning and teaching many years I say it is CORRECT to use the return stroke BECAUSE it is not uniform.
So before you go crazy trying to get this, just remember it is HIS unique way, and 99% of maestros do NOT do this ever. I actually learned this first from Paco Peña "toques flamencos" and had a similar headache until I got it. Then I realized none of the guys I liked (Paco Cepero is the best IMO), were doing this thing. I thought maybe to find some application for it, like roll only bass notes with dissonant intervals....but then I saw Paco de Lucia doing that with i a i, simply moving the hand up higher to target the bases only, and ....well, this icami thing just went to the way side. Now when I hear Juan demonstrate slow, he does not hit the high E and it is not bright sounding (probably students will get this problem too). He does it differently when he goes faster and does catch the high E. But it is still not as bright as a basic up stroke which is needed for the balanced sound of just basic time keeping with any compas. Imagine if we NEVER play any up stroke how dull that would be.
So my advice is to develop it on the sideline but don't let it be a major hinderance since its application is limited.
RE: This Rasgueado is difficult for ... (in reply to Ricardo)
Thank you, Ricardo. Yeah I get that, makes perfect sense. I quite like the sound though, and actually it's been good for my other rasguedos, I feel more controlled and they sound a but more even now. But for sure, I have many more important priorities than getting fast icam :)
_____________________________
The early bird catches the worm. But the second mouse gets the cheese.
RE: This Rasgueado is difficult for ... (in reply to silddx)
quote:
I quite like the sound though, and actually it's been good for my other rasguedos
My advice is do not develop it at all. It's not worth it. Master iai instead. As Mr.Marlow mentioned one can get similar result with iai on bass strings.
In general, iai produces a light and bright sound. Perfect for Alegrias.
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. That is why I said "welcome to America!" before. And now even DEVILHAND can hear it! 
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