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I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy, doesn't have to be fast, should have some meat on the bones, can be raw or well done, as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
Posts: 15413
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (in reply to ernandez R)
nice find thanks for sharing. Although, not much new insight, I still think the piece is overblown by the public, and perpetuates the "fakemenco" classical genre. As a recording it is arguable Paco's worst interns of fidelity, low compression, quiet guitar, overloud orchestra. The video came with this DVD documentary "Francisco Sanchez" and was a different performance it seemed to me, much more clear audio. Interesting to note his album "Sirocco" is the only one in his catalogue that he seemed to control copyright on. The "record company" did not have total control over Paco's career and the article makes it sound. And it seems like he did tour a bit with the piece, if I am not mistaken, and split the concert with his trio with Banderas and Cañizares. Interesting his son's documentary totally skips this chapter of his career.
Many don't seem to realize it was Sanlucar who had already been using orchestras with his music for a few years, performing his own music and for the ballet. John Mclaughlin used the orchestra with Mahavishnu projects and they asked him to do the Aranjuez. Since he was too lazy to learn it he composed his own concerto in imitation of it, and performed it a year before Paco (also a bad audio IMO). I have little doubt all this was a bit of an inspiration for Paco to go a head and do this .... other wise his decision was a bit coming from left field.
RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (in reply to ernandez R)
My ex texted this to me, she’s done radio for years but making her way up the food chain at the local PBS station she always finds stuff I don’t see. Always wanted me to do a flamenco radio show but I never took her up on it, never felt I knew enough about flamenco to do anything but make an ass out of myself ;)
Anyway I hadn’t heard about this recording or the situation but I’ll check it out for sure. If I don’t hear of something on the Foro I’m not likely to, El Rubio and I have been trading guitar building and he has turned me onto some cool flamenco along the way.
HR
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I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy, doesn't have to be fast, should have some meat on the bones, can be raw or well done, as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (in reply to ernandez R)
There was comment about this concerto by a now deceased person from the old Foro that’s always stuck with me on this. “The Aranjuez is nothing but refried Granainas.”
I can’t listen to it and not think this. For my money it’s **** piece and the one I like better is the version Gil Evans lifted out of it and reorchestrated for Miles Davis on the Sketches of Spain album.
RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (in reply to estebanana)
My dads mom made the best refried beans as part of breakfast: bacon and eggs, cheriso, hand made flour tortillas, diced Anaheim chilies she roasted and peeled herself, and pintos refried in the bacon and chorizo drippings. Food of the gods!
I get what you guys are saying about the recording having just now listened. And ya SF, I like the sketches in Spain better. I’ll listen a few more times cause that’s what I do, just to be sure.
HR
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I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy, doesn't have to be fast, should have some meat on the bones, can be raw or well done, as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (in reply to ernandez R)
I ate that for breakfast growing up, except I’d make it myself because I’m one of those GenX children that had virtually no supervision 😂
I feel the Aranjuez is as the GenZ says ‘cringe’. I can’t not think of both refried frijoles and the commercial for the Chrysler Cordova…
Although if you want to hear a version that won’t make you throw up, there’s a Pepe Romero version on YouTube that’s really good. He plays it relaxed and honestly. I find the majority of the versions I’ve heard to be pompous feeling, blown up into a dramaturgical mess. Pepe’s version is none of those.
Posts: 15413
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (in reply to estebanana)
I remember in college there was some Bs grading system for difficulty levels of pieces and Chacon and Aranjuez held the highest levels. Later I realized this is only because these pieces are not for the guitar at all. For aranjuez EVERY player comes up with his or her own version because when I looked at the score there are impossible chords and such going on.
The one I like the best would be Paco's but in terms of classical guitarists, John Williams is hilariously simplified which I honestly prefer. He does stuff like the high chordal finish and octave lower, etc. It is great! . It is like he said F this piece and just made it easy.
Musically I would not say Granainas, but first movement w. drop D and the last, are both very Gaspar Sanz ish. I have to say Rodrigo was ripping off a lot of that material. A lot of this is the Spain music revival by Felipe Pedrall, that we should ACTUALLY thank Pujol for doing the heavy lifting on. He digs into the vihuela and the history of the Renaissance stuff, and later Sanz etc. Of course Pedrall was the guy pointing it out.
The adagio is the famous one, (play anything from the two fast movements and noddy knows it). Davis is just noodling over the progression. But he inspired Chick Corea to make a classic standard out of it. That is probably how Paco first learned and got the idea to do a version (with McLaughlin of course, the tune Spain). There are also some licks here and there Escudero used in Impetu that are super cool, so I give Rodrigo those licks as important.
The "cadenza" is more the refried "Minera" if you will, in G# phrygian. I have to say the key changes throughout the 3 movements seem random and disconnected IMO.
RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (in reply to ernandez R)
Felipe Pedrell, yes he’s the grandad of the modern nationalist/ Spanish sound in classical music because he admonished the composers he taught at the end of the 19th century to adopt folk music from Spain into their work. Just like Bartok and Kodaly collected and used folk materials to create a Hungarian music separate from the stuff pushed by the Austrian empire.
Pedrell was a big influence on the early 20th century composers.
And the reference to granainas was taken direct from that guy, who shall not be mentioned in public. So I was aware that the material is like Sanz, so it’s really not refried beans, but a Canary that was made into KFC.
John Williams is something I generally avoid because I cannot stand the plink plink sound of the guitars he plays. I hear the lattice top guitars as grating on my nerves. I don’t love them and many double tops also have that nasal plinky sound.
I still prefer the haute bois solo in the slow movement and any horn players rendition over the guitar. I think the whole piece is more satisfying as a wind ensemble work. Miles is noodling, sure, but that’s how jazz works. There was no score available of the concerto so Gil Evans transcribed the gist of it, the stuff he wanted and re textured it. I like it a lot. The aranjuez is like great and all important classical guitar players have to grapple with it at some point, but it’s predictable, to me at least.
Chrysler Cordova, feel the rich Corinthian leather interior and the smooth handling on the road. Corrdoovah
Posts: 3462
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (in reply to estebanana)
In her recent concert here in Austin, Ana Vidovic played a solo version of the whole Aranjuez that she arranged. It was fast, and a virtuoso showpiece.
RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan
In her recent concert here in Austin, Ana Vidovic played a solo version of the whole Aranjuez that she arranged. It was fast, and a virtuoso showpiece.
I liked it.
RNJ
I’m interested in that, anything she does is worth hearing. Is there a video existing that features her playing this? It reminds me of Yamashita playing the Firebird. A thing I’ve also come to be disappointed in, but Vidovic is much better than Yamashita.
I actually don’t say this blithely or without forethought judging a great guitar player like Yamashita. I don’t care for his interpretation or tone, but the direct to disk recording of the Firebird was a huge thing when it was released in the mid 1980’s.
A few years ago I set out to make a transcription of a section of the Firebird for our local guitar ensemble, we’re now called Akune Guitar Circle. I worked on it very carefully, I used the score which I downloaded from IMSLP and I listened to the Firebird over and over and finally decided after sketching out a section before and after the Bercuse and paying careful attention to the Bercuse that it’s all but impossible to make Stravinsky work with guitar only instrumentation. There are things happening in the registers above and below the guitar range that don’t work.
Posts: 15413
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan
In her recent concert here in Austin, Ana Vidovic played a solo version of the whole Aranjuez that she arranged. It was fast, and a virtuoso showpiece.
I liked it.
RNJ
Long ago, maybe like 2004? Some classmates might have the recording (Pimientito was there), Gerardo Nunez learned it to perform with some orchestra. He treated it like any other gig, have no clue if it was recorded, but since it was fresh, he executed all the 3 movements for us, a little up tempo from how it would be performed. Since he omitted all the tacit sections, the entire performance for us was like 5 minutes.
Now for Estebanana, I agree the Smallman is crap tone. But here I think he used a Fleta, and I love the sound of this guitar. His arrangement is very Spanish flavored. He does a virtuoso Picado instead of double stops (violin version is slow) at 2:50 He created/composed his own variation as well, he wins in my book with this at least:
RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan
In her recent concert here in Austin, Ana Vidovic played a solo version of the whole Aranjuez that she arranged. It was fast, and a virtuoso showpiece.
I liked it.
RNJ
Long ago, maybe like 2004? Some classmates might have the recording (Pimientito was there), Gerardo Nunez learned it to perform with some orchestra. He treated it like any other gig, have no clue if it was recorded, but since it was fresh, he executed all the 3 movements for us, a little up tempo from how it would be performed. Since he omitted all the tacit sections, the entire performance for us was like 5 minutes.
Now for Estebanana, I agree the Smallman is crap tone. But here I think he used a Fleta, and I love the sound of this guitar. His arrangement is very Spanish flavored. He does a virtuoso Picado instead of double stops (violin version is slow) at 2:50 He created/composed his own variation as well, he wins in my book with this at least:
I hate Paganini’s music to be honest. It’s vapid garbage. But ok I’ll give you the musicality and tone of the JW’s playing and the super Fleta sound. I have listened to the Caprices many times, my take on them is the violinist Riggiero Ricci nailed them.
Better than the caprices is the early 1980’s duet album between JW and Isaac Perlman playing the Guitar /Violin duets of Paganini. That’s fun stuff. It’s like if Mozart wrote violin / guitar duets.
I don’t consider Paganini a good composer, he was a freak virtuoso who obviously in control of his era, but he didn’t extend the language of harmony like Wagner or create breathtaking beauty like Schubert, wrote no string quartets. Then he quit touring to screw his girlfriend……
Posts: 15413
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (in reply to estebanana)
well, I will disagree except that yes the virtuoso speed drills are junk, and overblown in the popular mind. Caprice 24 is of the most uninteresting of the set. however, some of those slower ones with minor key octave sliding melodies are spine tingling and beautiful to me. This one for example;
RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (in reply to ernandez R)
I don't understand what you guys have against the Aranjuez. I play it, it's fun and very difficult. If you accept the use of a wide palette of tone colors, you can really make the fast movements come to life. The 2nd movement has a story to it that can be very moving to the audience if you embrace it.
Posts: 1967
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (in reply to Grisha)
I've seen it performed by the SF Symphony. Can't remember the guitarist. It was amazing.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Grisha
I don't understand what you guys have against the Aranjuez. I play it, it's fun and very difficult. If you accept the use of a wide palette of tone colors, you can really make the fast movements come to life. The 2nd movement has a story to it that can be very moving to the audience if you embrace it.
RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (in reply to Ricardo)
Re: Pag 4
Yes I agree, Pagi is good when he plays soulfully, but he made his living being the Uber Malmteen of his day and he was kind of a cult of personality. Caprice 4 begins with beautiful double and triple stops, gorgeous harmony and then goes into a spiccato section with more major sounding chords, that’s cool because it is the opposite flavor and contrast to the double stop situation he opens with. But here’s where it goes bad, he continues the spiccato work too long without changing the feeling, it gets tedious and at that point I’m checked out of being interested. Then he goes back into a different minor double stop section and that should be it. Done. But if course he jacks it back up again and once more I’m checked out.
The central spiccato section is three times as long as it needs to be. It gets boring. We don’t live in an era where that’s impressive any longer, it’s tantamount to musical masturbation. It’s virtuosity on display for the freakish appeasement of 19th century gentry class fascination.
That said, I like the left hand pizz caprice. Ruggiero Ricci’s father was an abusive stage parent and forced Ricci jr to play for several hours a day locked in his bedroom. The father would sit in the room outside the door and when the kid would take a break he’d knock on the door and ask why he wasn’t practicing.
The child’s now arm would get tired and he would switch to practicing the left hand pizz caprice to rest his right arm.
RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (in reply to ernandez R)
Hating on the Aranjuez feels a bit edgelordy to me. It's just a famous piece in the classical guitar repertoire that resonates with a broad audience, has clear flamenco inspirations, has a movement that entered the common jazz vernacular thanks to Chick Corea's "Spain," etc. It's not my favorite guitar concerto (that would be the Villa-Lobos one), but as overplayed as it is, it's overall a nice piece when played well.
RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (in reply to Grisha)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Grisha
I don't understand what you guys have against the Aranjuez. I play it, it's fun and very difficult. If you accept the use of a wide palette of tone colors, you can really make the fast movements come to life. The 2nd movement has a story to it that can be very moving to the audience if you embrace it.
It’s probably just me that does not like it, I don’t hate it, I just wouldn’t want to have to sit through it. The reason is because the line is boring, once you’ve heard it twice it’s not redemptive, it becomes a cliche’. I prefer the versions transcribed into jazz idioms because there is a chance they will change the line. In the bigger context of classical music the concerto is like Ravel’s Bolero, once you’ve heard it twice, it’s tedious.
RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (in reply to Bulerias2005)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bulerias2005
Hating on the Aranjuez feels a bit edgelordy to me. It's just a famous piece in the classical guitar repertoire that resonates with a broad audience, has clear flamenco inspirations, has a movement that entered the common jazz vernacular thanks to Chick Corea's "Spain," etc. It's not my favorite guitar concerto (that would be the Villa-Lobos one), but as overplayed as it is, it's overall a nice piece when played well.
That’s nasty. You’d defend Pachelbel’s canon as an interesting piece of music. The problem is guitarists are guitar chauvinists. Any time you criticize the repertoire they cry foul.
RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bulerias2005
Hating on the Aranjuez feels a bit edgelordy to me. It's just a famous piece in the classical guitar repertoire that resonates with a broad audience, has clear flamenco inspirations, has a movement that entered the common jazz vernacular thanks to Chick Corea's "Spain," etc. It's not my favorite guitar concerto (that would be the Villa-Lobos one), but as overplayed as it is, it's overall a nice piece when played well.
That’s nasty. You’d defend Pachelbel’s canon as an interesting piece of music. The problem is guitarists are guitar chauvinists. Any time you criticize the repertoire they cry foul.
That's... a lot of assumptions in quick succession. I don't think Pachalbel's Canon is an interesting piece of music. I find a decent amount of the "standard" / Segovian classical guitar repertoire to be pretty boring. I don't even predominantly listen to guitar music anymore, nor do I understand guitarists who exclusively and myopically listen to guitar music (especially those who compose). I can still like the Aranjuez and not be considered a "guitar chauvinist." I didn't say it's some brilliant composition or anything, just a nice, maybe even inoffensive, piece. I don't have as negative of a reaction to it as you do, in any case. :P
RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (in reply to ernandez R)
Hey everyone I’m the sh*thead who reasoned out why I don’t like a certain piece of guitar music. Nobody else expressed this position. I don’t care about your feelings on why I don’t like a piece of music. If you can’t handle that someone has a different opinion on a piece of music, it’s not my problem. Grow up and realize people dislike music and it’s not rational. I don’t care that you don’t like my irrational opinions.
All the comments about not liking the Aranjuez are pointed at me, I don’t care what you think. And a counter argument is going to waste other people’s time.
RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
Hey everyone I’m the sh*thead who reasoned out why I don’t like a certain piece of guitar music. Nobody else expressed this position. I don’t care about your feelings on why I don’t like a piece of music. If you can’t handle that someone has a different opinion on a piece of music, it’s not my problem. Grow up and realize people dislike music and it’s not rational. I don’t care that you don’t like my irrational opinions.
All the comments about not liking the Aranjuez are pointed at me, I don’t care what you think. And a counter argument is going to waste other people’s time.
RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (in reply to ernandez R)
In 2012 I went see the cellist David Finkel and his pianist wife play in San Francisco. I went by myself, and was not excited when I saw the Brahms Cello Sonata no.2 on the program, but I said, well ok, they are performing the Shostakovich sonata so it’s worth the whole sit down. See I wanted like a double Russian program with the Prokofief cello sonata too and some odds and ends, but they were performing Brahms, ok.
The next day I emailed Finkel and said wow you changed my mind on Brahms 2, because I never really got into it before I heard you and your wife perform it. I never really liked the first movement because I said, it reminded me of silent movie music where Snidley Whiplash is tying a woman to train track and it just sounded corny and stupid. But I told him, your playing didn’t feel that way, it changed my perception about how the piece could work.
He says back, wow you’re the only one who emailed us to say thanks and comment on the performance. And then we exchanged a few more emails about how the Brahms went etc. and he said next time we’re in town stop backstage after the concert and say hello. He said it’s good that the audience is engaged whether they felt a breakthrough or they didn’t understand something, he said we need to hear something, and that it’s unfortunate more people don’t send comments.
Some weeks later I was telling this to a professional cellist friend, I said Finkel changed my feeling about Brahms 2, she said “you had a problem with Brahms 2? I really do not like Brahms 1, it’s such a cliched over played mess. “ This is from a touring cellist, having strong opinion about a staple in the cello repertoire. It’s not uncommon. Steven Isserlis the British cellist has spoken at length why he doesn’t like the 1st unaccompanied cello suite by Britten, he says it’s crap and doesn’t perform it, but says that no. 3 is a great work. I can understand his point, although I’m still ok with number 1. But after he said that I looked at no. 3 more carefully and realized that even though still stoked to hear the first Britten suite, it’s not as deep and challenging as -#3.
A lot of my model for thinking about music comes from classical musicians who don’t have restrictive ideas about what’s important and what’s not. Or what feels good and what doesn’t. I think it’s important for instrumentalists to critically consider their own instruments body of work. In the case of classical guitar however there’s a protectiveness I don’t sense with many other instruments that have been standard in classical music. There are probably more viola concerti than guitar concerti and there aren’t many viola concerti, so guitarists don’t have as much to choose from in that genre. Someone can say to a violist “the piano part in the Hindemith viola sonata is really kind of thick with counter point that gets in the way” and a viola player doesn’t get defensive, because that busy aspect of Hindemith’s writing is something everyone has to come to a conclusion about.
My thought on a certain guitar concerto is that so far I like Pepe Romero’s and José María Gallardo del Rey. I like it so so, maybe if David Finkel performed it I’d have a breakthrough and become enlightened, but probably not.
Posts: 15413
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (in reply to Grisha)
quote:
I don't understand what you guys have against the Aranjuez. I play it, it's fun and very difficult.
Dang, I am sure your version I would prefer to the others except Paco. I forgot to mention Gallardo, who likely taught the fingers to Paco and the correct compás (that most classical guitar versions smear over). I will never forget when I saw him perform Gaspar Sanz and and Albeniz with cajón, and suddenly music I used to despise came alive for me. I guess the issue is really about rhythm for me. And as I said already, it inspired more important works (IMO) the Escudero licks (you know which ones of course) and Spain, which communes musicians of all genres in my experience. So "love hate".
Posts: 15413
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
The central spiccato section is three times as long as it needs to be. It gets boring. We don’t live in an era where that’s impressive any longer, it’s tantamount to musical masturbation. It’s virtuosity on display for the freakish appeasement of 19th century gentry class fascination.
I get it...but...maybe everyone plays it too slow and non-rhythmic? Then it would fly by. I do this on occasion, just click the speed up button on YouTube app. LOL. But I will just disagree, the piece is perfect for my tastes, and the young lady, by comparison to most others, is doing an exquisite job.
RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
The central spiccato section is three times as long as it needs to be. It gets boring. We don’t live in an era where that’s impressive any longer, it’s tantamount to musical masturbation. It’s virtuosity on display for the freakish appeasement of 19th century gentry class fascination.
I get it...but...maybe everyone plays it too slow and non-rhythmic? Then it would fly by. I do this on occasion, just click the speed up button on YouTube app. LOL. But I will just disagree, the piece is perfect for my tastes, and the young lady, by comparison to most others, is doing an exquisite jo
I’m glad you disagree, I’ve met so many people online that are scared to disagree or call disagreeing ‘beefing’. I enjoy the disagreement particularly with you because I learn more about how you think about music, and it would never reach this point of interesting conversation if you were a musical yes man. 😂
I’ve not seen the movie ‘Tar’ about the conductor played by Cate Blanchette, but from the preview where she rips into a student who doesn’t like Bach, I think I’d like it.
RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (in reply to ernandez R)
I feel pre-vindicated in my non interest in Paganini because in 1989-90 I had a job working for the concert master of the Kennedy Center orchestra. He didn’t like Paganini either. 😆
Posts: 292
Joined: May 3 2017
From: Iraq, living in Germany
RE: PDL concierto-de-aranjue article (in reply to ernandez R)
well, not agreeing is not beefing as long as no one is attacking someone else's opinion imho. it's okay for you to not like the original on repeat and like to see a fresh breeze of air with jazz interpretations etc. and I kinda see what you mean. for me personally, the way paco played it just sent me to a completely different dimension and that actually inspired me to pick up the guitar in the first place. i cannot listen to any other rendition from most other classical players because they can't get even close to the finesse and sincerity paco played it with. everyone else does a kitsch version of it, including all these low budget instrumental renditions and "Le Bairut" from the lebanese legend Fairuz. cheap cheesy kitsch in the most literal sense. at least for me 😌
but i believe it's because most people don't hear the sadness and sincerity in the 2nd movement and try to make it romantic and beautlful/sweet. but in fact it's really sad, like saying a final goodbye. paco was the only one to see this and bring this out.
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. It is like he said F this piece and just made it easy. 
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