Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
Always loved the shape of the mid century Spanish guitars of Santos and company, but for a long time didn’t like Hauser shape. Felt it was too flat on the top and bottom. My taste changed and one day last summer I went to make a Hauser mould. Here’s the twist, his lower bout didn’t feel right 3 2/3rds the way down, so I sweetened it up by drawing over it with a Santos half pattern I’ve had since my first guitar. It gave the curve more downward pull right past the widest point on the lower bout, very subtle, but to my eye a significant difference. It’s just a change in a curve that’s four pencil lines wide.
Here’s the first one coming out of that mould. It’s going to sound great too.
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
RE: I changed my model after my tast... (in reply to estebanana)
WOOF WOOF!
So, going for the new look or are you also changing up the top enough to bring a change of response as well?
HR
_____________________________
I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy, doesn't have to be fast, should have some meat on the bones, can be raw or well done, as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
RE: I changed my model after my tast... (in reply to ernandez R)
Not changing the bracing I normally use on full size models.
Seven mildly parabolic fans, a little stiffer on treble side. I do three stepped graduations, roughly a circle of the thickest area of top under the bridge, about 4” in diameter and that carries up to the lower transverse brace. Then step down in thickness around that circle 2” wide ( more or less) then a 3rd step to the edges. All blended carefully
I determine the initial top thickness by how it deflects along the grain. I flex the top by putting one hand in the sound hole and one hand on the lower tail edge and then push my thumbs under where the bridge will go and feel how stiff it is along the grain from where the transverse brace will be to the tail block.
Once I decide how thick the top needs to be along the grain I draw in the two steps as rough circles on the inside of top and leave the innermost 4” circle alone. Then I carefully remove material with a plane and blend the graduations together, with my Jewish Space Laser TM ~
Usually I’m working in a very small target envelope of graduation, it’s all pretty close unless I chose a top that ends up being more flexible along the grain, then I’ll leave it a hair thicker.
So basically I’m determining the voice by the first take on flex with the grain and adjusting everything around that intuitive decision. My most successful guitars end up being 2.3 or 2.2 in the center circle, graduating to 1.8 or 1.7 at the outer rim. When the body is assembled I usually sand the top in the tail area a bit more as I find this helps lower the main body resonance, and I’m very much interested in getting within a few cents of F#
If all that can be lined up and a lightish carefully thinned bridge is added as a top brace, then it makes a fairly good guitar. The dealer I work with here used to be a guitar tester at Yamaha, he’ll play all over the neck and tell me if it has any ‘wolf notes’ then if not he will take it into the shop. He’s got a certain obsession with wolf notes, so I find the time tested way of building that aims at F# body res makes the most stable least wolfy guitars.
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
RE: I changed my model after my tast... (in reply to estebanana)
The thing I’ve been doing with this brace pattern isn’t very far out, I’ve learned, quite painfully in fact, that I have zero feel for new ideas in top bracing and stick with ideas up to about Hauser II bracing ideas. After that I don’t mess with it, I have found a reliable zone. Maybe it doesn’t make the guitars that competition guitarists or top soloists desire, but the Ex Yamaha man will show them to fellows with ready cash.
There are plenty of luthiers who want to build ‘hot dogging’ guitars so I let them, but maybe I’ll get lucky soon and a great Japanese player will play one of mine. If I make a guitar with pegs the chances are it won’t sell, but if it’s got tuners, they usually sell in a few weeks. Lucky me?
RE: I changed my model after my tast... (in reply to estebanana)
Some people do everything hyper neat, and some people bodge everything. Someone who does everything at the level that meets a relevant standard gives me the feeling that they'll put a lot of effort into the things that matter most.
Thanks for the window into your approach, that was very cool.
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
I made this with a router, some glue and a pin nailer. Are my cabinet making skills adequate? 😂
Posts: 15334
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: I changed my model after my tast... (in reply to estebanana)
oh shoot. I got excited but still no orange guitars with media luna?
just want to add, I was always confused about wolf notes (having never experienced one despite exposure to countless guitars), however, I now think they are the typical subjective bias issue again, with no basis in objectively reality and if tested properly can be ruled out with a lot of other things. Also this so called "camera" guitar by Ramirez 3 that supposedly eliminates them I have always wanted to try but never encountered one.
RE: I changed my model after my tast... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
oh shoot. I got excited but still no orange guitars with media luna?
just want to add, I was always confused about wolf notes (having never experienced one despite exposure to countless guitars), however, I now think they are the typical subjective bias issue again, with no basis in objectively reality and if tested properly can be ruled out with a lot of other things. Also this so called "camera" guitar by Ramirez 3 that supposedly eliminates them I have always wanted to try but never encountered one.
The thing is, they do exist, you can hear and feel them. More importantly, you can also measure them and see them on power spectograms. I won't go too deep into an explanation as there are others in the guitar building community that can address it more eloquently, but basically it's due to the system responding to a resonant frequency in an explosive manner. It's the same phenomenon that has brought down bridges in windstorms. But, for sure, they can be measured and observed using analysis software. I had a program on my iPhone that did the measurement really well but they didn't keep up with the updates and Apple removed it from their library. I can't even load it on my new phone.
Just so's I'm not jumping on Stephen's thread and answering a question addressed to him out of place, I'll try to make it more relevant by bringing up an example. I have a really gorgeous Brazilian Rosewood classical guitar made in Madrid by a team of makers who were also unofficially known to make guitars for Bernabé. The guitar itself is essentially a Bernabé pattern but its top is stamped and signed by the makers. It also is braced using one of his more experimental configurations. Only two back braces, laminated sides, and the top bracing is just a few sticks radiating out from the bridge area. It's as loud as f*ck. It also has a wolf at, if I remember correctly, G# (might be wrong on the specific note but I think it's that one). The note doesn't sound at all. But you sure can feel it. Hit that note and the guitar feels like it's about to explode. I bet if you put it over a loudspeaker and played the note at a sufficient volume the guitar actually would explode. The phenomenon is experienced as a very powerful, almost violent, attack followed by nothing, it's basically a thunk.
This also relates to this thread because Stephen said he's perfectly comfortable using "old school" bracing patterns as seen by Hauser and Santos, etc...and I agree with him (although I'll also use lattice patterns if I see fit, generally on cedar). They are "tried and true" because they work. The pattern on the guitar I mentioned does not. The guitar looks great and has a beautifully carved heel and all that, but that's about it...sonically, it's a POS. It fails at its intended purpose and it should never have left the maker's shop. Maybe that's why you've not encountered them...most good makers will not let something like that go, they'll either try to fix it or retop it or scrap it altogether and repurpose the wood, and most factory guitars are sufficiently over-built to lessen the effect or avoid it altogether.
I don't know if I've convinced you, but wolf notes really do exist and are objectively measurable, the old bracing patterns do work and are still relevant today, Stephen makes beautiful guitars (even if they aren't orange ), one or two millimeters can make a huge difference in how a plantilla presents itself, and I kind of feel like I might be intruding so I'll humbly take my leave.
RE: I changed my model after my tast... (in reply to estebanana)
Sorry for stepping on your thread. I like your new model. It's nice.
It's funny how huge an impact seemingly insignificant adjustments can make in how a shape presents itself. Especially when your eye is in that kind of hyper-vigilant mode that happens when drawing one out. Sometimes I try the old ship designer's trick of drawing the lines then putting them aside for a while, then pinning them up and looking at them at various points in time. Basically trying to break away from the design so I can see it fresh. It can drive you a little batty, but I find if I get a shape where my eye seems to consistently relax when I look at it, then it's probably a good one. I've yet to be 100% satisfied, however, maybe I never will be.
I like yours, though. It's nicely balanced and my eye relaxes when I look at it. Maybe that's where the old expression "easy on the eyes" comes from.
RE: I changed my model after my tast... (in reply to RobF)
I think as we age we begin to appreciate a more sumptuous lower bought ;)
After a few guitars I started slipping little .040/1mm shims here and there between my mould and the ribs to get a more pleasing outline without having to make another form. Now that I’ve seen numerous construction types of forms I see it’s not all that big a deal. I don’t build in a solera but if I did Stephens setup would be how to get it done.
OT: made a big life change and moved so my shop has been packed up for the last six months, hoping to get it up and running at my new location in a couple months. Who knows, might make a compleat break of it and make a new plantila/mould too.
HR
_____________________________
I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy, doesn't have to be fast, should have some meat on the bones, can be raw or well done, as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
RE: I changed my model after my tast... (in reply to ernandez R)
I think it's a very worthwhile exercise for a maker to have a go at drawing multiple plantillas. Especially if they have no prior art or drafting experience as it really does help train the eye. Maybe the best way.
I think some time ago Stephen posted some drawings he did on various strategies he's used to draw a plantilla. It's worth searching that thread out, there's lots of good insight there.
RE: I changed my model after my tast... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
I made this with a router, some glue and a pin nailer. Are my cabinet making skills adequate? 😂
Stephen, Looks great! You use a template to make all the pieces the same with a router?
Thanx for sharing your thiknessing/tuning info. It’s basically how I do mine only I thickness in the drum sander so it’s all even by bending and tapping, I’ll brace and thin them some, but I do the finel tuning much the same way you do and my Flamenco spicific, ie long scale attack etc, I thin the aft 2” or so that much more. I don’t aim for a specific pitch but perhaps I should?
At the LA guitar show there was a luither I follow on instagram, https://www.instagram.com/reynosoguitars/ , he builds amazing classical guitars, anyway he had a braced top and I was shocked how high a frequency it tapped. Has me rethinking the direction I’ve been going but also realizing there are many avenues to success.
HR
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
_____________________________
I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy, doesn't have to be fast, should have some meat on the bones, can be raw or well done, as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
RE: I changed my model after my tast... (in reply to Ricardo)
Oranges are food, for example from Valencia, marmalade belongs on toast not spruce. Or in your English muffin, you might dollop marmalade onto a scone for tea time, or if you’re American on an ‘English muffin’ or if you’re Canadian you might mix marmalade into your putine gravy. All wildly good, but not on spruce.
Wolf tones, it’s a real phenomenon and maybe players call them dead notes, uneven notes or other names. But I agree with you Ricardo, it’s about perception.
This phenomenon often happens on F# fourth fret on D string. It can be very subtle, but it’s slightly false and hoarse sounding. What’s happening is that the note being sounded by the string is beating very slightly out of sync with a major resonance made possible by the volume of air in the body.
The string vibrates that’s the pure sound, but that also activates a body resonance that’s not beating exactly the same, but it’s more or less the same note.
An easy way to illustrate the concept is when we tune with harmonics. We strike two harmonics on different strings and then we tune one string to match the other string. And until we get them to the same pitch, while we get that one string closer to the other harmonic, you can hear the harmonics beating against each other. That’s basically almost the same thing as a ‘wolf tone’.
Now in the guitar body there’s a fixed amount of air and there are myriads of simultaneous resonances going off when you pluck the string and play a pitch. Each pitch activates a different series of resonances happening at once, that’s why we like guitars, the blends of these crazy resonances create the voice, whether it’s lush and smooth or raspy and reedy. We all have preferences. But like the harmonics when tuning some resonances can be dominanating and beat with the pitch that’s being plucked, but instead of turning the tuner grip and getting rid of the beating, we as guitar makers have to step around the typical zones we know create the false hoarseness that comes on certain notes.
Over time the Spanish makers worked out a well known zone that for the size, shade and pitch of guitar which would generally mitigate the clash of body resonance and string pitch. This coincides also with making guitars that don’t have over active sympathetic resonance on treble notes. The thing is if you work in that traditional envelope of body size, top stiffness, bridge weight and flexibility, brace patterns you avoid most of that annoying extraneous noise generated by overtones and body resonances that accentuate that noisy stuff. You want the guitar to be natural and non ‘up-tight’ but still have vibrancy and complexity in how all the resonances mix.,
There are three ways you achieve this, first you become an almost insufferable guitarsplainer who doesn’t make a move without testing every piece of wood with the oscilloscope of death and telling everyone on the internet about the karma catching the dogma. Two, you invent a shaggy dog story and disseminate it like a salty old dog, but it’s non essential meta lore created out of whole cloth with the intention of projecting a personal mythology origin story. ( anthropologists could study these cases) Or lastly by keeping you head down and building the conservative, but brilliantly designed classic brace patterns sensitively made bridges. The road to being a shokunin is paved with regular stones and lots of lunches in the shop eating soup while staring confusedly at thin panels of wood.
Theses more technically in how to skirt these wolf tones, but it’s also true that some people perceive a particular guitar to have these hoarse false notes, while another person will think the same guitar is fine. And others will almost unanimously agree certain guitars have so much extraneous noise they shouldn’t be in public.
Here’s the thing, if you have a guitar that you perceive to be too noisy and has these glitches where an overtone or a fretted pitch note sounds false, the first place to look is at the nut. Make sure the strings are bedded perfectly in the nut with no bumps or air under the string. Many noisy guitars have a messed up nut.
2- intonation! A great many squeals and off beating clashes can be tamed by intonation analysis. That’s a whole subject, hunting wierd beats and gurgles. If you put the time into this fine set up of intonation, or build it into the guitar the guitar will be less noisy with the extraneous sounds. Intonation work can shift the way the body resonance dances with the pitched fretted notes dramatically.
That’s why the other name for intonation work is called
RE: I changed my model after my tast... (in reply to Ricardo)
See? I told you someone would come along who could explain it more eloquently than I could.
P.S. I briefly had a Conde that had one of those split note warble kind of wolfs like Stephen described. It really bugged me and I didn't keep the guitar. The person who was selling it is a good player and also someone I trust and he honestly had never noticed it, or at least it had never bothered him. I reassured myself that my ears were telling the truth by using my trusty iPhone power spectrum app (RIP), but it did occur to me that one person's interesting tonality can be another's chalk scraping on blackboard. Just so I don't come across as dissing the orange god of guitars, the setup on that conde was flawless, it was a good looking guitar and it played like a dream, I just couldn't get past that honky note.
P.P.S. I did analyze the wolf enough to identify sources and arrive at a possible solution/cure. I don't want to bore people with the details, save to say it confirmed a lot of what Stephen was saying above about resonances, intonation, and how they can interact. In the case of the Conde, it had a resonance that was sufficiently powerful to actually pull sympathetically vibrating strings out of tune. I can't say I fully understand how. When I blocked the sympathetic strings the source note presented itself as a thud with a fairly rapid decay, but no warble or split.
Posts: 15334
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: I changed my model after my tast... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
This phenomenon often happens on F# fourth fret on D string. It can be very subtle, but it’s slightly false and hoarse sounding.
Ok thanks. I don't want to hijack this topic. But I assume the issue above is double checked? Meaning you block other strings from sympathetic ring, and then you check the same pitch at 9 on 5th and 14 on 6th, to rule out that it is in fact the GUITAR build and not the stupid string. Right?
Perhaps Conde is nothing BUT wolf notes and that is what I actually like about it??
these people that say guitar X sounds like a "grande piano!!", make me cringe. Like who the F wants a guitar like that? Or the coffee colored G string, and on and on. That is how a guitar is SUPPOSED to sound, and hence synthesizers even now fail to replicate a nylon guitar tone worth a shyte. Then there is the left hand fretting intonation thing I aways point out. It is rarely the guitar, it is usually YOU that is making a guitar sound off.
RE: I changed my model after my tast... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Meaning you block other strings from sympathetic ring, and then you check the same pitch at 9 on 5th and 14 on 6th, to rule out that it is in fact the GUITAR build and not the stupid string.
It's an objective thing, when a string note or its low partials are too close to the frequency of the main T(1,1) top plate-guitar cavity resonance (the monopole). As far as I know guitarreros aim to make the frequency of that T(1,1) land in between fretted notes. I saw some studies, however, that T(1,1) can vary by up to +-5% due to temperature and humidity changes (don't know what range and if it not too extreme to matter), which is about a semitone, so it is not possible to eliminate it in all conditions for all time. Or something like that.
RE: I changed my model after my tast... (in reply to estebanana)
This is why the Lutherie section is my favourite on here.
quote:
Oranges are food, for example from Valencia, marmalade belongs on toast not spruce. Or in your English muffin, you might dollop marmalade onto a scone for tea time, or if you’re American on an ‘English muffin’ or if you’re Canadian you might mix marmalade into your putine gravy. All wildly good, but not on spruce.
Wolf tones, it’s a real phenomenon and maybe players call them dead notes, uneven notes or other names. But I agree with you Ricardo, it’s about perception.
This phenomenon often happens on F# fourth fret on D string. It can be very subtle, but it’s slightly false and hoarse sounding. What’s happening is that the note being sounded by the string is beating very slightly out of sync with a major resonance made possible by the volume of air in the body.
The string vibrates that’s the pure sound, but that also activates a body resonance that’s not beating exactly the same, but it’s more or less the same note.
An easy way to illustrate the concept is when we tune with harmonics. We strike two harmonics on different strings and then we tune one string to match the other string. And until we get them to the same pitch, while we get that one string closer to the other harmonic, you can hear the harmonics beating against each other. That’s basically almost the same thing as a ‘wolf tone’.
Now in the guitar body there’s a fixed amount of air and there are myriads of simultaneous resonances going off when you pluck the string and play a pitch. Each pitch activates a different series of resonances happening at once, that’s why we like guitars, the blends of these crazy resonances create the voice, whether it’s lush and smooth or raspy and reedy. We all have preferences. But like the harmonics when tuning some resonances can be dominanating and beat with the pitch that’s being plucked, but instead of turning the tuner grip and getting rid of the beating, we as guitar makers have to step around the typical zones we know create the false hoarseness that comes on certain notes.
Over time the Spanish makers worked out a well known zone that for the size, shade and pitch of guitar which would generally mitigate the clash of body resonance and string pitch. This coincides also with making guitars that don’t have over active sympathetic resonance on treble notes. The thing is if you work in that traditional envelope of body size, top stiffness, bridge weight and flexibility, brace patterns you avoid most of that annoying extraneous noise generated by overtones and body resonances that accentuate that noisy stuff. You want the guitar to be natural and non ‘up-tight’ but still have vibrancy and complexity in how all the resonances mix.,
There are three ways you achieve this, first you become an almost insufferable guitarsplainer who doesn’t make a move without testing every piece of wood with the oscilloscope of death and telling everyone on the internet about the karma catching the dogma. Two, you invent a shaggy dog story and disseminate it like a salty old dog, but it’s non essential meta lore created out of whole cloth with the intention of projecting a personal mythology origin story. ( anthropologists could study these cases) Or lastly by keeping you head down and building the conservative, but brilliantly designed classic brace patterns sensitively made bridges. The road to being a shokunin is paved with regular stones and lots of lunches in the shop eating soup while staring confusedly at thin panels of wood.
Theses more technically in how to skirt these wolf tones, but it’s also true that some people perceive a particular guitar to have these hoarse false notes, while another person will think the same guitar is fine. And others will almost unanimously agree certain guitars have so much extraneous noise they shouldn’t be in public.
Here’s the thing, if you have a guitar that you perceive to be too noisy and has these glitches where an overtone or a fretted pitch note sounds false, the first place to look is at the nut. Make sure the strings are bedded perfectly in the nut with no bumps or air under the string. Many noisy guitars have a messed up nut.
2- intonation! A great many squeals and off beating clashes can be tamed by intonation analysis. That’s a whole subject, hunting wierd beats and gurgles. If you put the time into this fine set up of intonation, or build it into the guitar the guitar will be less noisy with the extraneous sounds. Intonation work can shift the way the body resonance dances with the pitched fretted notes dramatically.
That’s why the other name for intonation work is called
RE: I changed my model after my tast... (in reply to kitarist)
quote:
ORIGINAL: kitarist
quote:
Meaning you block other strings from sympathetic ring, and then you check the same pitch at 9 on 5th and 14 on 6th, to rule out that it is in fact the GUITAR build and not the stupid string.
It's an objective thing, when a string note or its low partials are too close to the frequency of the main T(1,1) top plate-guitar cavity resonance (the monopole). As far as I know guitarreros aim to make the frequency of that T(1,1) land in between fretted notes. I saw some studies, however, that T(1,1) can vary by up to +-5% due to temperature and humidity changes (don't know what range and if it not too extreme to matter), which is about a semitone, so it is not possible to eliminate it in all conditions for all time. Or something like that.
It's not so much as trying to get the resonances between notes as much as ensuring the guitar doesn't become under damped in the pursuit of responsiveness. That's why it's so hard to refute some of the things being suggested on this thread. It's because all guitars react to stimulus in a fairly predicatable manner, with the critically damped ones being most successful in avoiding being too squirrelly or "colourful", while at the same time not being too dull and unresponsive, kind of sitting in the goldilocks zone. Over damped ones will likely seem lifeless, and under damped instruments can tend towards responses that, in the extreme cases, can pull them out of their linear region and then things become much less predictable. So, nothing Ricardo is saying is actually wrong, but he seems to be sceptical that the explosive condition can even exist.
I think you might be from an engineering background so a lot of my intuition comes from my control systems 101 course explanations of second order systems. In no way am I saying a guitar is that simple to model, it's far more complex than that. But the principals are the same, at least I think they are. As I said earlier, there are others way better equipped than me to explain this stuff, I can barely remember it, and it doesn't really interest me anymore. But for anyone who is interested, here's a link to a slide show that touches on the basics as a refresher. Real five head stuff...
Also, I don't want to hijack the thread, either, but I have to say I have used analysis software in the past specifically to avoid these kind of he said, she said conversations. If I hear something and then can verify that a microphone and analysis software is "hearing" the same thing, I can proceed with some level of confidence. Data informs intuition, I'd like to say it's always been that way for me, but really I learned that through education and experience.
RE: I changed my model after my tast... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
This phenomenon often happens on F# fourth fret on D string. It can be very subtle, but it’s slightly false and hoarse sounding.
Ok thanks. I don't want to hijack this topic. But I assume the issue above is double checked? Meaning you block other strings from sympathetic ring, and then you check the same pitch at 9 on 5th and 14 on 6th, to rule out that it is in fact the GUITAR build and not the stupid string. Right?
Perhaps Conde is nothing BUT wolf notes and that is what I actually like about it??
these people that say guitar X sounds like a "grande piano!!", make me cringe. Like who the F wants a guitar like that? Or the coffee colored G string, and on and on. That is how a guitar is SUPPOSED to sound, and hence synthesizers even now fail to replicate a nylon guitar tone worth a shyte. Then there is the left hand fretting intonation thing I aways point out. It is rarely the guitar, it is usually YOU that is making a guitar sound off.
Yes.
And yes. I hate to bring up David Serva again and hijack my own thread, but he said the same thing about the composite ‘coffee colored’ third string. He pointed out that a fat low tension 3rd string was better because it doesn’t sound like the bass strings or the B&E trebles and has a different feel you can exploit. You down the 3rd string to be same sounding transition between the 4th and 2nd string as the wonkier the G sounds the more chances you have to vary your overall sounds in your playing.
And intonation is half art and half mathematical guess work, because guitar action is different on almost every guitar. Some guitarists are totally neurotic about it, the key to setting up their guitars is to give them a quick psychological evaluation ahead of time and then avoid working for them, because they always cause strife and anguish. Usually these players are not flamenco dudes, but the other dudes, the Orcs. You know who I mean. The Orcs of Segovuman with the big white hand print on their face.
Provided you cut the fret slots accurately and glued the bridge on so the treble side gets 2mm of compensation and the bass side gets 2.5 to 3 mm then the intonation on the guitar should be pretty good. I try to get the octaves in tune. I just rotate the bridge. Set the compensation distance on the treble side and rotate the bridge back on the bass side and that’s about all it needs. Of course some guitar makers do compensated nuts and saddles, but I don’t think it’s worth it. However I think there’s more to benefit from a compensated saddle than a compensated nut. But thoughts like that can launch tedious discussions that Orcs love.
RE: I changed my model after my tast... (in reply to estebanana)
Before this whole thing blows up in my face...I've been referring to wolf notes in a fairly narrowly defined manner. If we extend it include intonation and the behavior of various string materials, then that's OK too. All are welcomed to exist in wolfdom. it can be an inclusive club of sonic mayhem.
RE: I changed my model after my tast... (in reply to estebanana)
I found this meme the other day, I laughed so hard. I got booted from a British based baroque cello forum for saying someone’s idea about phrasing was retarded. I was lambasted with private messages that saying the word retarded is a slur against mentally handicapped people. I told them that it’s really neurodivergent, today we say a person is naturally wired differently and being different isn’t a thing to hold against their personhood.
So as I highjack my own thread, I want to declare that you won’t offend me if you want to call my work or anything I write ‘a test tube of pure retardium’.
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
RE: I changed my model after my tast... (in reply to estebanana)
That soylent green hue of the solution in the test tube suggests that it was distilled from the purest, highest grade of word salad. A towering achievement well deserving of our admiration. I'd like to think I've contributed to the cause.
Posts: 15334
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: I changed my model after my tast... (in reply to kitarist)
quote:
ORIGINAL: kitarist
quote:
Meaning you block other strings from sympathetic ring, and then you check the same pitch at 9 on 5th and 14 on 6th, to rule out that it is in fact the GUITAR build and not the stupid string.
It's an objective thing, when a string note or its low partials are too close to the frequency of the main T(1,1) top plate-guitar cavity resonance (the monopole). As far as I know guitarreros aim to make the frequency of that T(1,1) land in between fretted notes. I saw some studies, however, that T(1,1) can vary by up to +-5% due to temperature and humidity changes (don't know what range and if it not too extreme to matter), which is about a semitone, so it is not possible to eliminate it in all conditions for all time. Or something like that.
Ok ok. So if it is objective then i need to look at examples/evidence that demonstrates this. I will look myself, I am sure there are some nerds exploiting the thing on YouTube, so I can get my bearings.
quote:
Usually these players are not flamenco dudes, but the other dudes, the Orcs. You know who I mean. The Orcs of Segovuman with the big white hand print on their face.
Are those the ones that come out in day light? We flamencos rarely encounter them.
Posts: 15334
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: I changed my model after my tast... (in reply to Ricardo)
This guy says the amplitude increases on wolf tones but then we hear a violent vibration of intonation and resonance out of tune (can’t tell if it is the fretted note sharper or flatter than the wood vibration note, but obviously this would stop thumping if he moved his FINGER in the correct direction to match the frequency by ear). he also says that when picking (plucking) string instruments like guitars, the effect of wolf notes is imperceptible. . I agree, I have never heard such a violent rumble on guitars unless the strings are out of tune and I have a lot of gain coming through a PA system. But please guys, is THIS the effect you guys mean? (Out of tune intonation rumbling or vibrating out of tune)???
RE: I changed my model after my tast... (in reply to Ricardo)
I didn't watch the video yet but just from what you're saying, he must be from the bowed string instrument world, where the term Wolf Note was originally coined. He's basically got it right, until he says it's imperceptible on plucked instruments. That's wrong. No idea how he came up with that. As far as adjusting the intonation on the fly, first off the initial attack is extremely rapid, it's basically packing all the power of the pluck into the first moments. And it's not purely an intonation issue. When it occurs the guitar is not reacting as per normal and the strings are being pulled out of tune, they aren't necessarily out of tune at all under normal operating conditions. But yeah, the rumbling and the like can be the effect, although perhaps more apparent when bowed. The main thing to note is that the instrument is not behaving in a controlled (or controllable) manner when in that state. So the effects truly can be unpredictable.
I still have that bad guitar sitting in a case in my shop. I'm not even sure there's strings on it, I honestly can't bear to look at the thing I dislike it so much. If I absolutely must, in order to convince you, I could string it up and make a recording of it, but it's a lot of hassle. I mean, I'll do it, but damn, you're making me suffer.
P.S. Maybe this will help. I'm operating on the assumption that you'll eventually come around, lol. Instead of looking at the problem as a guitar and notes try to visualize it in a more abstract manner as simply being a closed loop system which normally operates in a linear fashion. The mathematics used to describe behaviours of higher order systems is simply that, a descriptive tool. As a system, it will have expected or normal states of behavior in response to stimulus. When the system is operating in a controlled manner any feedback involved in the process is well behaved, or actually, it's the feedback that maintains the well behaved nature of the response. But you can have states where the response to the stimulus is uncontrolled. In a closed system, that is often the result of the feedback acting in an additive or positive manner. At that point the system will either start to oscillate at its natural frequency (which may or may not lie upon a defined musical note) or actually enter what is called an explosive state. That's what's happening with a wolf. It may happen in various degrees of severity, and with various symptoms, but that's basically it.
I'm probably not explaining this very well, as I really do struggle with words, but trust me, the entire modern world and all its conveniences exists in the form it does due to an understanding of the principals described in the transforms used to define second order systems. It's kind of like the 1+1 of engineering, or maybe a basic building block is a better way to put it.
RE: I changed my model after my tast... (in reply to estebanana)
For those unwilling to watch the video, ChatGPT summarizes the transcript thusly:
The passage discusses wolf notes (or wolf tones) in the context of acoustic string instruments, specifically on bowed instruments like the cello. The author, a luthier, explains that wolf notes occur when the resonant frequency of the instrument’s soundboard, backboard, or air chamber matches the pitch of the vibrating string. This creates sympathetic vibrations that amplify the sound beyond the string's normal capacity, leading to an oscillating pattern of increased and decreased amplitude, which we hear as a wolf note.
The author provides an example of his grandson Zachary’s cello producing a wolf note at F sharp, which he captured on video to demonstrate how these notes sound. He explains that although wolf notes can interfere with playing certain notes, musicians have solutions. Luthiers can tune the instrument's parts slightly off concert pitch to prevent resonance, and players can use wolf note dampers to reduce the effect. The author clarifies that wolf notes are primarily a problem for bowed instruments, as the quick decay of plucked strings makes them less of an issue for picked instruments like guitars or mandolins. The passage concludes with a recommendation to explore Alexander Woods' book The Physics of Music for more on wolf notes.
Printable Version
), one or two millimeters can make a huge difference in how a plantilla presents itself, and I kind of feel like I might be intruding so I'll humbly take my leave.
New Messages
No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages
Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages
Locked w/o New Messages
Post New Thread