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More so, would it be worth it to become a guitarist in a country that doesn't have a flamenco audience ? I've been thinking about becoming a guitarist for a while because I'm dreading working a 9-5 from next year (still in college). However, I've a lot of issues :
1. I live in India which doesn't have a flamenco audience
2. I reckon a lack of friend circle of like minded flamenco guitarists would bring me down, here nobody knows flamenco
3. If I'd to become a guitarist here, i would have to play Bollywood music or classical music which I do not like listening to
Money isn't a issue for me as long as you can pay your bills since I think passion is more important in life however these issues are preventing me from taking the path. What's your thoughts ?
Nothing wrong with a regular job it's the damn capitalist nut job bosses that take all the passion out of your work. And 8 hours for 5 days ? What the **** is that?
RE: Is is worth it to become a guita... (in reply to metalhead)
đ¶ Money for nothing and your chicks for free đ¶
Sorry, thatâs all I got and I ainât got much, what I do have I worked my ass off for, worked harder and smarter and longer than any man around me. If you want to play you need to do all of these things and be lucky as well.
Get off the internet and go do it, find a restraont to play at, at least you can get a meal out of the deal?
And remember, we are all whores for our passions one way or another, if Bollywood pays the bills, fills your belly and buys guitar strings so you can play the music you love then so be it.
Now if you are looking for an easy path to get around âthe manâ you need to be a con artest free loader, just remember the world is full of them, and today they are the smartest around only today we call them lawyers and portfolio managers, politicians and CEOâs, the vary people you donât want to be enslaved to: whore!
Just had some time to kill before I go out and do that thing I donât mind doing that makes a fâton of cash and they gratefully pay me because I work harder smarter and faster then any man around me.
HR
_____________________________
I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy, doesn't have to be fast, should have some meat on the bones, can be raw or well done, as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
Posts: 1762
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands
RE: Is is worth it to become a guita... (in reply to metalhead)
If you become a flamenco guitarist you work 8 hours for 5 days too. There is no difference in making sausages in a fabric.
The dis advances you mention is your advance, nobody knows flamenco, so you are the best. You have no flamenco friends, so you do not have to split. You think you have better chance to become a flamenco guitarist in Spain?
So, get a normal regular 8 hour job like everybody in the world, or become a flamenco guitarist.
Better, get an 8 hour job and try to become a flameco guitatarist in the evening hours. You are young, if you really want, it is not a problem to work for 12 hours a day and see if you are capable to become a flamenco guitarist.
RE: Is is worth it to become a guita... (in reply to metalhead)
I propose considering a different perspective on your question: 'Is it worthwhile to invest time in becoming a professional guitarist with expectations of financial return?'
Similar to any investment, thorough due diligence is crucial. This involves recognizing that pursuing a career in entertainmentâsuch as being a skilled flamenco guitaristâoften requires supplementary income. Many entertainers, artists, and entrepreneurs maintain day jobs or manage businesses that might incur losses for several years before achieving financial success.
Ultimately, you must decide if you want to enter the entertainment industry as an expert flamenco player, rather than merely a proficient guitaristâespecially since many amateurs and enthusiasts can also play expertly.
For context, I am not a professional flamenco player but an artist and educator, earning a living as an art professor at a university and through art sales.
Posts: 1939
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton
RE: Is is worth it to become a guita... (in reply to metalhead)
Initially I wrote a novel here, but to cut it short, the answer is no. Just do the best you can with the instrument in your free time while having a profession to pay your bills and you'll see whether you can move forward.
RE: Is is worth it to become a guita... (in reply to metalhead)
Although I have been a performing and recording guitarist and bassist for over 40 years, I have always had a day job and done the music for FUN and a few free beers, sometimes I get a small payment. Like most people I worked my ass off, had a lot of sh1t jobs, but now I have a wonderful job with a great team and a fabulous boss. I studied hard, work diligently and with integrity, and get a lot of fulfilment from it. It is a HELUVA lot easier than being a professional musician.
I play bass in a band with professional artists who have 40 year writing, recording and producing careers under their belts, their lives are hard and there is little reward other than 90 minutes on stage. They are constantly under pressure to be creative, find opportunities, and live with so much uncertainty. They are at the mercy of so many external factors and people, no pension, no sick pay. I have friends who are fabulous musicians, they have to teach because there is so little money in writing, recording and touring, it takes years to build an audience and you had better be a natural road rat because the relentless touring required to build an audience can be exhausting.
If I were you, I would keep practising, get a few gigs in the evening, keep the day job, see where life takes me, follow my passions with an eye on longer term security.
_____________________________
The early bird catches the worm. But the second mouse gets the cheese.
Posts: 15329
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Is is worth it to become a guita... (in reply to metalhead)
quote:
ORIGINAL: metalhead
More so, would it be worth it to become a guitarist in a country that doesn't have a flamenco audience ? I've been thinking about becoming a guitarist for a while because I'm dreading working a 9-5 from next year (still in college). However, I've a lot of issues :
1. I live in India which doesn't have a flamenco audience
2. I reckon a lack of friend circle of like minded flamenco guitarists would bring me down, here nobody knows flamenco
3. If I'd to become a guitarist here, i would have to play Bollywood music or classical music which I do not like listening to
Money isn't a issue for me as long as you can pay your bills since I think passion is more important in life however these issues are preventing me from taking the path. What's your thoughts ?
Nothing wrong with a regular job it's the damn capitalist nut job bosses that take all the passion out of your work. And 8 hours for 5 days ? What the **** is that?
Every country on this planet will have SOME small elite audience for flamenco. The actual error is to believe there is a bigger one somewhere, ANYWHERE else on this earth, including spain. Yes there are festivals etc there, but I mean on an average day you have to go to a special location with a special small group of people, and only those people know about the music. What I found was that I had to CREATE the community of aficionados around me. And I am sure this is the same all over the place. Even my maestro Gerardo was trying to get something going in a Cave somewhere in Andalucia, and it failed just as would here in Wash. DC. Because the artform lives as an expression, not so much as a guaranteed commercial endevour.
I knew I wanted to be a musician since I was 15, at the time I was thinking rock guitar. I realized that where Flamenco loses with its small audience, it actually wins in longevity. I am lucky that I rode a wave just ahead of the massive changes in music industry of the internet and free music. However, I made the right choice with this flamenco genre that grabbed me, even though at first I only wanted to learn about it, while functioning as a pro musician in other regimes. In the end, the time and love I put in to flamenco started coming back (financially). I canât say I recommend it to everybody these days. I actually feel bad for Antonio Rey, that if he had been born 10 years earlier he might have had a bigger impact commercially by now, hard to say.
In your case, i am sure that somewhere nearby you will find dancers (at least) that would love to have a flamenco guitarist devoting to the art. If you are not happy in the day job, maybe explore other jobs that give you more freedom. Money and happiness are a see-saw typically. If you devote too much to making money you lose. And if you put too much into your art or hobby, you will be poor. Finding the balance is up to you to explore.
RE: Is is worth it to become a guita... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
In your case, i am sure that somewhere nearby you will find dancers (at least) that would love to have a flamenco guitarist devoting to the art.
No there aren't. Not a single one.
quote:
The actual error is to believe there is a bigger one somewhere, ANYWHERE else on this earth, including spain.
I get what you're trying to say, but you can't find an audience when there isn't any. Do you think a guy who played Bollywood would find an audience in Spain? Flamenco is already so unpopular even in Spain, how can it be popular in Asia. I know Japan is an exception for some reason.
If you scroll down even we see the Indian dude singing villancicos with a little girl. This is so typical world wide. Like people will see the pretty younger student girl who has her studio in my neck of the woods and does good advertisingâŠ.totally unawares of the unadvertised hardcore underground where we do real flamenco un exposed except to folks that know us, and that is how we actually prefer it. Or maybe you are far from Mumbai and then it is still relevant like nobody knew about the community in Pittsburgh I used to go on a regular basis because it was quite a substantial underground movement, on occasion worth the 5 hour drive to be involved for some days. Again, the above link shows that there actually is a potential network lurking in India, so from there you create your audience as you needed it. If you have legit pro skills I am sure if you contact her there might be a project that warrants your involvement. Or maybe, YOU need to do some work to get to a place that they would even need you.
Posts: 1939
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton
RE: Is is worth it to become a guita... (in reply to metalhead)
There's so much to say about this. First of all you have to be good, not one of those guys who loves to play but really can't. I've met quite a few of those and they struggled. That requires practice and a lot of extra studying, listening to flamenco and most preferably interacting with them; and although I don't know where exactly you live, you don't seem to have too many options. Then you have to do a lot of marketing to sell yourself. Then what is it you want to do? Surely a group with dancer(s), a singer, someone to do palmas or cajĂłn is not very realistic. A solo guitarist doesn't generate much interest these days, some of the classical audience might be interested but not on a level that would allow you to perform with the regularity that gives you enough income. India is interesting because I see a lot of similarities in flamenco and Indian classical music, in fact there have been festivals where flamenco artists played together with indian musicians. I think they'd be receptive to flamenco, the numbers are certainly there with the population, but they have no clue really what it is. So that'll require what Ricardo said, building your own audience. It'll take a lot of effort. Say you do all the above, in my experience the financial gains are only worth it if you do it with enough regularity, taking on anything you can - and most importantly, compromising. Meaning you will have to play stuff you don't want to, because you know audiences will like it. I was always very bad at this and never compromised (other than playing for bad dancers :)), but then I never wanted to become a professional either. The only two flamenco guitarists in Hungary who make a living out of it do take on absolutely anything and everything and they make a lot of compromise. Interestingly, in my case "compromise" was joining a rock band that became a band for events (mostly weddings) and it required about zero effort from me and gave me way more income than performing on a flamenco guitar ever did. Of course, I had to spend on equipment (which you will have to as well).
Posts: 15329
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Is is worth it to become a guita... (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)
quote:
So that'll require what Ricardo said, building your own audience. It'll take a lot of effort.
Basically it is called ânetworkingâ and it is really not that hard to do. I canât tell you how many times I have brought musicians to an unusual environment for flamenco or rumbas and the demographic of people is, letâs say, not the typical one. The look of worry on the guys face âbro, are THESE people going to like us?â, and I say, âwell, just watch what happens hereâ. Believe it or not, people of all walks of life like flamenco and/or rumba if you play it well, with conviction, etc. And they tell THEIR friends about us, and on it goes.
Now, having said that, I have also learned there will be, on occasion, the oppositeâŠas in people that resent spain and its culture (not naming names), or resent people NOT SPANISH doing it (proud or prejudiced Spaniards). That is a tiny minority in my experience. It is partly why you see Spaniards that work a lot as artists LEAVE SPAIN to work. In the end I get rewarded again and again for just giving the people a chance to enjoy it. âNever heard this music before, what is this??? It is amazingâ. Too many timesâŠ.every weekend practically. As soon as you assume âoh these people wonât like flamencoâ you are already sabotaging the thing.
Posts: 1954
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Is is worth it to become a guita... (in reply to metalhead)
Is it worth it? For me, yes. I gave up a lot to become a working musician, as has every one else who followed that path. You say you don't need much money? Good, because you'll likely not earn much. Do you want to have a wife and kids someday? That's a big one. I know many pros who are married, usually to women who have higher incomes, but I know fewer who actually raised their children. Once the kids get a bit older and require more support, a lot of wives give the broke ass guitar player his walking papers.
The need to make a living playing music usually involves playing some music you don't really like, sometimes with people you don't really like. There is one flamenco student I know who lives in India, who makes his living as a studio guitarist for Bollywood movies. Not a bad deal IMO.
I played music for several years with a violinist who had been in major symphony orchestras in several countries. His skill level afforded him the opportunity to live in different countries while earning a great income. He is a rare bird.
I read an article written by a guy who was in a name band. After it fizzled he got a regular job. He said he worked at it as hard as he had worked on his music. He found he was outworking all his fellow employees and he prospered. That should tell you something about how hard you have to work to make a good living playing music. You have to wear a lot of hats if you want to maximize your income.
To me, it's a difficult way to make a buck, and I was fortunate in that I had a small business to pick up the slack when gigs were slow. Eventually that small business became so lucrative that it didn't make sense to do a music gig. It still makes sense to play and study music, to me. You're young, so maybe go for it, but with your eyes open.
Posts: 1939
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton
RE: Is is worth it to become a guita... (in reply to Ricardo)
You're completely right, that if you are any good and can create an aire, people will absolutely love it. I've done many concerts (although not nearly as many as yourself) and the feedback was always positive. But then I was almost always with dancers or a singer / percussionist. My worry in this case is the lack of options in that regard. On the positive side, India is a huge market so with hard work I feel like it's doable, but I wouldn't give up on a main profession to secure life.
Posts: 1939
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton
RE: Is is worth it to become a guita... (in reply to metalhead)
That's correct. I never wanted to be a professional musician, I always had something on the side, because I saw how the world has changed and how difficult it is. I was not willing to make compromises and I certainly wasn't going to put in the marketing effort. My father was a pro musician and he made a comfortable living until the 2000s hit, he found another, much more lucrative line of work and plays concerts whenever he wants to. That's sort of my goal too.
RE: Is is worth it to become a guita... (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)
That's kinda the thing. Most of the guys seem to suggest having a full time job on the side as a must. The thing is it can work in countries like Europe and America where number of jobs to people proportion is decent so employers are not nearly as strict in Asian countries. However here, with the so many people as you said, it creates a problem since employers already have bazillion other people to hire who have more work experience and not some rando guitarist who decided to knock on the door due to slow business lol. I know guitarists here, it's obviously not like you can't survive as a guitarist here, however almost all of them need to do it for the rest of their life without a comeback option. There's a lot of things i need to consider.
RE: Is is worth it to become a guita... (in reply to metalhead)
Very few flamencos can make a "living" with the guitar, but I have owned a flamenco guitar since 1959 and have gone through many periods of intense playing, and also have put it away for long periods; however, that guitar gives me more self gratification and especially alone in my practice room. I play for the relaxation and intensity, the emotional outlet that the guitar gives me; it is part of who I am; audiences though nice are not required to fine gratification in one's music. I have performed with dancers, and a few concerts, but nothing beats the time i can spend one on one with guitar; practice, experiment, try honing skills; it helps relax and free the mind. If the guitar by itself does not entertain you or give you pleasure, maybe you should put it away and see if you come back to it.
RE: Is is worth it to become a guita... (in reply to etta)
quote:
Very few flamencos can make a "living" with the guitar, but I have owned a flamenco guitar since 1959 and have gone through many periods of intense playing, and also have put it away for long periods; however, that guitar gives me more self gratification and especially alone in my practice room. I play for the relaxation and intensity, the emotional outlet that the guitar gives me; it is part of who I am; audiences though nice are not required to fine gratification in one's music. I have performed with dancers, and a few concerts, but nothing beats the time i can spend one on one with guitar; practice, experiment, try honing skills; it helps relax and free the mind. If the guitar by itself does not entertain you or give you pleasure, maybe you should put it away and see if you come back to it.
I wish we had a 'like' button on here.
_____________________________
The early bird catches the worm. But the second mouse gets the cheese.
RE: Is is worth it to become a guita... (in reply to metalhead)
quote:
However, I've a lot of issues :
1. I live in India which doesn't have a flamenco audience
2. I reckon a lack of friend circle of like minded flamenco guitarists would bring me down, here nobody knows flamenco
3. If I'd to become a guitarist here, i would have to play Bollywood music or classical music which I do not like listening to
Money isn't a issue for me as long as you can pay your bills since I think passion is more important in life however these issues are preventing me from taking the path.
You're thinking too much. Just play your guitar and have fun. Itâs not the destination, itâs the journey. Enjoy your flamenco journey.
Posts: 150
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: San Diego, CA
RE: Is is worth it to become a guita... (in reply to metalhead)
This a great topic to explore here.
The answers are pretty much specific to the person asking the question and where they live.
Let me acknowledge that all the responses so far have been very good.
Metalhead, where do you live, in which city?
You need to to be within, or have a large city, around or near to you. The only way to do it from a small town is to have something like a YouTube channel where you post lessons and have followers who subscribe or where you collect advertising dollars.
I live this question every day and I am constantly asking myself if it is worth it. I should also say that it's a bit of a way to escape doing something that feels like drudgery.
My wife earns more than I do, and resents that I don't make more by other means, since she knows the limits to what I will earn in a given year based on history. She doesn't mind my playing, just that I haven't found another way to earn decently that is compatible. I want to avoid hard physical labor because it screws up my hands. I also need a lot of time to practice since I play challenging music.
I focus on playing for corporate and private events and weddings. One advantage I have where I live is that it is a destination for corporate and private events and there are many resorts/hotels that cater to the larger groups that come.
You also need to consider the housing market where you live. San Diego, where I live, is SUPER expensive, and I could not make it on my own with what I make by performing. Hell, I couldn't afford health insurance. There are pressures in many cities that continue to drive housing costs upward. Southern California has comfortable weather all year-round and attracts a lot of investment as it is a secure investment in the long term. I know Vancouver, in Canada is horrible in this regard due to outside investment and limited buildable land. I would imagine India is similar, especially in the bigger cities.
I really don't do concerts. I tried, but people find all kinds of reasons not to show up. I lost a little money back around 2017 having put together a dinner show and decided to focus on private events where I could depend on a company paying the bill.
There are other guitarists who are good in this region, so there's quite a bit of competition. Many of them play Gipsy Kings, which I won't do. Although, I do play several rumbas, which is the palo with the largest number of songs in my repertoire because that is what most non-flamenco people like. If I played the Gipsy Kings, I'd guess that I'd have 2x as many gigs.
While you may not have competition where you live, I'd bet it won't be easy to build a following, although I am sure you can, but you'll have to figure out how to attract followers.
I teach a very small number of students, 4 at the moment. 2 are away for several weeks, so very little income from that.
I also interpret for Spanish speakers seeking medical treatment, which helps, but does not pay well either. This will probably end within 10 years would be my guess. AI powered interpreters will most likely replace most interpreters. While it is still far from perfect, improvements are being made on a monthly basis, so I don't see much reason to put much time into improving my interpreting skills.
I have explored translating some guitar books, but I haven't found much interest from guitarists wanting to buy translated books.
I have also paid to have several flamenco guitar music books entered into Guitar Pro as a possible way of making a little extra money, but no one seems interested in those except myself and my students.
Back around 2005 I decided to leave academic and private brain and spinal cord research because I wanted to be a full-time flamenco guitarist. It took a long time for me to arrive at the views I'm sharing with you.
Most people have no idea of the time commitment it takes to learn to be not just proficient, but good at flamenco. A guitarist wanting to call him/herself flamenco needs to spend enough time grasping vocal and dance accompaniment before they try to be a soloist. A person MUST understand the foundation, which I am still learning, LOL.
I don't do much accompaniment because I must do a lot of it to be any good at it, and there just simply aren't enough well-paid gigs for the few who want to do it.
I also am tired of sitting in dance studios having to play for beginner and intermediate dancers who really don't even understand what's happening. I wish dance teachers would teach the musical notation rhythmic values to dancers so they had a foundation for their footwork.
I had a burning desire to do it, and it's harder than I imagined, but I have grown to see that it's a sacrifice I have mostly been willing to make. I have not been able to travel internationally, which I dearly miss. I simply can't create enough gigs/income to afford it.
Much of your answer will depend on how you feel about sacrificing and living simply to do something you really love.
The advice about having some kind of other income is VERY WISE.
I can imagine that India has plenty of population, but only a small percentage have the money to hire you for private events. I would imagine even fewer will actually attend a concert or show.
The 99.999% will not care how seguiriya and soleĂĄ differ and will not be able to appreciate your efforts to make it interesting.
You may have to play some Bollywood music, but you can choose which tunes and how many you decide to learn.
Like others have said, go for it, but don't expect to earn enough to live from only performing. Find some kind of work you can do, and that helps people who are willing to pay you fairly, but where you don't feel it is total drudgery.
Be willing to think and work hard, and be willing to learn and grow and see things from a progressively less subjective point of view.
Remember that it matters more to you than it possibly could to anyone else. Your audience will only respond to music they are able to comprehend, and sometimes that means it has to be pretty simple.
There's something else I've come to understand that is tangential, but important, at least to me, and probably to most people on this website. Making the sacrifice of living with less becomes a problem as you begin to date women. People think that playing guitar attracts women. It might seem to be attractive to them at first, at least superficially, but it puts you at a huge disadvantage because generally speaking - no money, no honey. Most women consider whether a man can support her and any kids, and the more you appear to be able to earn, the more you are respected by others, the better your chances are. Not 100% are necessarily conscious of it, but it's an underlying strategy described in biological literature, and if you simply observe people, you'll start to see it.
Also, if you want to play at a high level, you will have to practice and grow as a guitarist ALL THE TIME. The great guitarists play A TON to keep their technique and repertoire in shape.
Posts: 1954
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Is is worth it to become a guita... (in reply to Ricardo)
Many years ago I got a call from a promoter asking if I could do a gig with Skinny Puppy headlining. I said I never heard of them. He said their audience was mostly kids who wore white makeup and all black clothing. I said "If they wear all black they might like flamenco!" Uh, they really didn't.
Strange gig. Their singer had a surgeon's outfit and a fake dead dog. He threw the "dog" around on an operating table of sorts, flinging all kinds of fake blood, while they pounded out a beat that was so loud and extruciating it drove me from the hall. I went into the manager's office to get paid the whopping 50.00 and found all the management huddled in the office. I said wow, you guys are all hiding from the horrible noise.....They laughed and said it was about the ticket sales.
I found out later that Skinny Puppy was pretty popular. Never could figure that one out.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo As soon as you assume âoh these people wonât like flamencoâ you are already sabotaging the thing.
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