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As i see , more guitar makers (non factory) are doing economical models , no laminated woods. Starts from 600 can go to 1000/1500 , some with really nice sound and finish.
Huge options and market in Spain , some are making a name , others maybe just want to make more cash because they re knowed (locally) Very nice moment to grab a nice guitar , the 2hand market is also very appealing.
Please dont make a drama from this , just realise that seems to be a great time to see options.
didnt yet , just great feed , Quality sound price , that his entrance model worths more than the price asked (1000) , and that can change quick. im not that far , i can make a week trip to collect one and enjoy huelva for a day or two.
Theres also one or two in sevilha that make them great and entrance model 1500 +-
Also some in Granada , yet its more miles to drive..and Tato seems great.
Posts: 15201
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Spanish (or based) Guitar Makers... (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Manitas de Lata
As i see , more guitar makers (non factory) are doing economical models , no laminated woods. Starts from 600 can go to 1000/1500 , some with really nice sound and finish.
Huge options and market in Spain , some are making a name , others maybe just want to make more cash because they re knowed (locally) Very nice moment to grab a nice guitar , the 2hand market is also very appealing.
Please dont make a drama from this , just realise that seems to be a great time to see options.
It is not economically viable, as far as I know and have discussed with people that play their own builds, to sell a hand built guitar for less than $2,500+. The materials and time alone to break even give this figure. Any builder making concert normal guitars at normal concert prices, that is offering a $600-$1500 instrument, is having them made at a factory to specifications (or not even, simply placing a label in an existing model), where such prices are achievable thanks to bulk orders/sales worldwide (30k instruments a year in some cases). This is basic economics, no drama. You might as well drop any prejudice against Valencia factory guitar output….they are masters at the process and most professionals recognize their functional value (for use, not resale to make money from a collector). Cut out the middle man sticking labels inside. Like used car. You need to get somewhere, get a used car in good condition. No shame in it.
Trying to find the unicorn guitar “special deal, boy did I luck out” situation, is delusional.
RE: Spanish (or based) Guitar Makers... (in reply to Ricardo)
i see your point and also agree.
theres exceptions , like competiton and personal goals , if you re not a well know maker , like only in your area and want to go further for example , make more name , put more guitars circulating and also gain more customers for higher range models. If you have work for all year or next with reserves you dont need that , in opposite i think its a good strategy to make nice guitar with nicier quallity than factory and personalize to the customer , with decent woods/specs , and of course increase your name in the market and gain more custormers to higher range. Spain as i see is huge market with huge competition , so customer will win with this, and dont forget that many seells to foregneir markets , so they leave more room in domestic market. They have the well knowed makers , well knowed factorys , not so well knowed makers (locals) and unknown , spanish and no native, lots of makers. You have lots of high quality wood furniture makers that are just making guitars as their age increase , also lots of people getting doin guitar making lessons .
Its like other working areas , everyday more options to customers , more makers more options , more price ranges . The customer wins, in oposite some people that do this for life will suffer and that sucks... i know , i have experienced and saw that many many years ago (and still) , and now almost all of us are in jeopardy as AI is taking over and companies dont give a **** for people and dont realise that everyone is a client , if you cut people those people will not consume...and dont give money to your company , its just stupid .
Posts: 15201
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Spanish (or based) Guitar Makers... (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
quote:
i think its a good strategy to make nice guitar with nicier quallity than factory and personalize to the customer
As I said, it is not really possible economically (losing half the cost to make). The factory concept has a negative connotation, but they can, even quick and easier and better results sometimes, do customizations upon request. They are so skilled at it that the negativity is coming from the fact that very high priced guitars with hands on detail can barely compete. In many cases, the cheap factory plastic coated guitar can out perform even legendary classic collectors items. The push against them in favor of the “charm” of a hand built “loved” instrument is not founded on any practical element. The only thing is, possibly the neck angle Goldilocks set up might be hit or miss in the factory, where as a single builder might get better consistency. But make no mistake, there are flaw possible in the most expensive hand built instruments all the time. The factory conveyor belt system eliminates many of the typical flaws, but you end up with an “impersonal” instrument, and to many people that matters.
It is this reason that your question to builders to drop their prices due to flaws (knowing full well that it is impossible to guarantee a flawless hand built anything), was taken as a big insult. The factory concept begans with the idea of a workshop of apprentices. That santos book we discuss in the other thread, well, that is a sort of “tiny” factory where it just so happens the kids working for M. Ramirez shop learned great skills. Those famous guitars by Santos don’t even have his name on there (a big issue to even put his name in one as the repair guy). The romantic notion that buyers like Segovia thought Manuel Ramirez spent hours with his barre hands to make that guitar, is false. It was some other guy, and even in that book is one M. Ramirez where THEY HAVE NO IDEA WHO BUILT THE THING. It is assumed it was Santos or Esteso, but it could have been the other guys. That is the issue with “factory” vs “luthier” made instruments. yet those right here are the MOST valuable guitars history has produced.
So if it comes down to money, no you are simply not going to get a cheap guitar that is better than the factory built ones from Valencia.
Posts: 15201
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Spanish (or based) Guitar Makers... (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Manitas de Lata
no , not really... no relation. And theres options new at moderate prices , so no need to go for "b stock" or so.
When you get your $600 LUTHIER built guitar, please ask them to show you photos of the actual guy hands on building the thing in stages. Good luck with that. Those are coming from Valencia with Luthier label stuck in.
RE: Spanish (or based) Guitar Makers... (in reply to Ricardo)
theres one luthier (non factory) Pepe Alcalareños that makes 600 , plus materials , so i suposed that the final price is around 1000 or so. So its like entry range Tato Rodriguez . They sound nice than mine , i think they re great value for money and no laminated , no top tuners just mids, peg if you want. Well for sure theres a lot more small individual guitarreros doin this.
valerio for that price (just 600-700 final no plus) its laminated.
Daniel avalle has some economical for 700+- and no laminated , altough the studios are his factory.
Many others are starting doing that , they choose decent woods (non laminated) they give the work plan , and supose supervise the work (i dont quite believe this issue) , some outsource like individual small luthiers/guitar makers , others are more knowed and have the workers for that.
But hard to get to it, it is practically hidden because of the horrible front page design. The menu is under the barely visible small three horizontal lines in the upper right corner.
Posts: 15201
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Spanish (or based) Guitar Makers... (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
Ok I see now.
quote:
theres one luthier (non factory) Pepe Alcalareños that makes 600 , plus materials , so i suposed that the final price is around 1000 or so.
Guess again. He is charging 600 for labor, any guitar. You have to tell him what you want in terms of quality and then he gives the “price” of materials. Pretty sneaky. You can get a pretty ****ty guitar at Valencia prices or you get the normal concert level instrument as I explained before (3000E guitar). If you tell him you want a guitar with materials not exceeding 400E He probably would hang up on you!
RE: Spanish (or based) Guitar Makers... (in reply to Ricardo)
well if i decide to go spanish luthier way i will phone him (and others) and will know ;) For Quality price and a near travel , Tato Rodriguez, i can even go there to enjoy Huelva visit the place and order if i want to .
Other option i can order a luthier model from a factory in my country and still under 1k with very decent dry wood and i can personalize the guitar , thin neck , color , low action , torres 7 model etc I allready talked to them and i can give them the plan and they execute. I have almost total freedom on the order , since its their Luthier model.
Im thinking to give them some guidelines , therefore i have to search for them, like for example a thinier top to have more ressonance , the measure of a little more thinier neck that my current guitar etc sugestions are welcome on this..
RE: Spanish (or based) Guitar Makers... (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
I really love my Graciliano Perez negra. I think they are great value and have a nice sound. Javier Castano and Paco Rey are on my radar for nice semi-affordable (?) blancas. On the cheaper end I've played Camps guitars and they are a lot of fun and seemed well-built.
RE: Spanish (or based) Guitar Makers... (in reply to elias)
theres another world between...
Abraham Ortega , Alberto Pantoja , Andres Dominguez , Romero , Young Perez, Pena , Vargas , and many others of course they have also 5000k or more guitars , but they also make excelent guitars for 2000-2500k
RE: Spanish (or based) Guitar Makers... (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
I am with Ricardo on this. These are working hours and a sincere luthier cannot go too low if he is doing a good job and not searching still how to make a guitar.
I once went to a classical guitar Luthier here in Greece that made classicals mainly, for 1500 euros. Long story short the factory guitars of 600 euros were more playable in every sense, and their sound just was not there.
In Spain it is even worse as many sell factory guitars in various prices with their name on it. I played the worse guitars I have ever played in the Gravina shop in 2007. All the flamencas they gave me were super high action super low volume at 2500.
In Athens now there is a pro concert player that started making guitars the last few years starting his price at 5500e ! But that is fair as that is how he values his time and effort.
There is also Lazarides in the northern part of Greece from whom I got my blanca some years ago. I absolutely love his work and it gets even better as I played an even more fantastic blanca of his that a friend of mine bought in Christmas. You can get a new blanca at 3500 euros from him and be sure he works alone in his village in his workshop. He does not make economic models just his best. He has people going to his village during the summer mostly, where he can also provide a room in his house and food for a couple of days if you want to try the guitars he is making (with no charge of course). He is a great guy with the essence of Greek hospitality.
There is also the guy I learnt my first flamenco here in my city that has started to built his own guitars, his name Paris Pliakas. I have not yet played them. But he is also selling his stock from the made in Spain guitars he had from the endless trips to Spain he had when he was younger (he is now 60) If I remember correctly one of them is a Goya guitar (selling I think for 2000euros), blanca, with the lowest action I have ever experienced in any guitar. It just played by itself using just the left hand The other is a Santos Bayon selling for 2500 euros. Both of these guitars are old but in very good condition.
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